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Stuart Batty Tools

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I've been waiting to see more details on his 15V bowl gouges. So, his website describes them as 'laminated'. Does anyone know if that is a 15V sleeve that forms the flute, which is laminated to a SS 'substrate'? If so, that is a new development. Some hollowing tools have been made this way (ie. cutting metal tips welded to bars), but no gouges with a sleeve like that have gone into production, as far as I know,

Of course, Woodcut have been doing replaceable gouge tips for some time, but they are a solid M2 tips that attaches to the end of a shaft.

On the performance of 15V™, they are claiming:

* Up to 7 times longer edge life than M2
* Up to 5 times longer edge life than M42

What they haven't given is its edge life performance compared to 10V. My testing showed that 15V is only a bit better than 10V, which is its nearest rival...

Push cut - TC vs HSS.png
Anyway, it is always good to see new developments and other options becoming available.
 
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I think the last one he was in limited production; only some tools available, and a target-date when the rest would be available. Looks like that is now, and it is full production.

ETA spoke too soon.... full production still to come, but pre-ordering available now.
Preordering? I sure wouldn't take that bet. I would have major reservations ordering from a tool line that has come and gone a couple times. The tool design has always seemed gimmicky to me, but hobby woodturners have always been one amazing tool away from being highly skilled.
 
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I've been waiting to see more details on his 15V bowl gouges. So, his website describes them as 'laminated'. Does anyone know if that is a 15V sleeve that forms the flute, which is laminated to a SS 'substrate'? If so, that is a new development. Some hollowing tools have been made this way (ie. cutting metal tips welded to bars), but no gouges with a sleeve like that have gone into production, as far as I know,

Of course, Woodcut have been doing replaceable gouge tips for some time, but they are a solid M2 tips that attaches to the end of a shaft.

On the performance of 15V™, they are claiming:

* Up to 7 times longer edge life than M2
* Up to 5 times longer edge life than M42

What they haven't given is its edge life performance compared to 10V. My testing showed that 15V is only a bit better than 10V, which is its nearest rival...

Anyway, it is always good to see new developments and other options becoming available.
It looks like from the image that the tip is silver soldered to the shaft, something akin to the Woodcut tools. The other laminated tools, hmm well, dunno it looks like they held together by CSK Allen screws?? An interesting method but I have some reservations about it
 

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I am not a fan of his tools. I wonder why his NRSs are so huge? Silver soldered 15V? No thanks.

robo hippy
 
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Laminating hard steel to a softer substrate has been used in cutting tools for centuries. Think Japanese plane blades and chisels.
It actually makes sense for a couple of reasons. The difficulty is manufacturing them at scale for a reasonable cost. I suspect in theory laminated turning tools could easily outperform HSS but sharpening might be an issue.
I’m sure turners had similar reservations when HSS tools first appeared on the scene. Most know that even modern HSS can’t attain an edge as keen as some of the old high carbon tool steels. We accept this though because HSS stays sharp longer.
Sadly, seeing folks dismissing new ideas without even trying them is becoming all too often these days so not unexpected. :(
 

john lucas

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Bill you are incorrect in your statement that hss will not sharpen as keen as carbon steel. I did tests yearszago and studied the tools under an electron microscope. I sharpened high carbon steel, Hss steel and a11 particle metal. All 3 were sharpened to far higher grits than we ever do on turning tools. They all tested to be the same sharpness on a commercial tester. When viewed under the electron microscope at extremely high magnification there was no real difference. All tested sharper than utility razor blades but because they were sharpened at 23 degrees could not match double edge blades. The polished edge however had the same size mountains as the double edge razors.
 
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That goes against everything I’ve read but I’ll have to take your word on it, but it does make you wonder why HSS is almost never used for cutting tools.
 
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That goes against everything I’ve read but I’ll have to take your word on it, but it does make you wonder why HSS is almost never used for cutting tools.
Huh? what about drill bits? Tap & Die Sets - Much else including hacksaw blades , all made from HSS - Just have a look at any tool and die maker offering HSS tooling... Not sure where your info comes from it being "almost never" used for cutting tools...
 

john lucas

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It's simple why hss ist used for standard curring tools. It's more expensive and you don't need the heat resistance of hss so why spend the money. Hss is designed to cut steel and can handle red hot temperatures without damage. You simply don't need that in a scalpelnorvchefs knife.
 
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The problem with sharpening High Speed Steels is and always been the sharpening media. High carbon steel can be cut effectively with Hard Arkansas stones these same stones will barely touch M2 much less A11 or CPM 10V.
When metallurgy technology changes sharpening technology must change to keep pace.
Why we cling to the old ways and sayings and are so reluctant to try new things is a mystery to me.
 
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Huh? what about drill bits? Tap & Die Sets - Much else including hacksaw blades , all made from HSS - Just have a look at any tool and die maker offering HSS tooling... Not sure where your info comes from it being "almost never" used for cutting tools...
Huh? It’s funny, I use taps and dies (many are not HSS) and drill bits a lot but don’t immediately think of them as cutting tools. They are of course but when folks talk about cutting tools I immediately think about knives and chisels etc, where HSS is rarely used. Knife makers in particular are very keen (pun intended) on getting the sharpest edge possible for their products and use appropriate steels with a fine grain structure to achieve it.
 
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The problem with sharpening High Speed Steels is and always been the sharpening media. High carbon steel can be cut effectively with Hard Arkansas stones these same stones will barely touch M2 much less A11 or CPM 10V.
When metallurgy technology changes sharpening technology must change to keep pace.
Why we cling to the old ways and sayings and are so reluctant to try new things is a mystery to me.
Agreed on several points. I’m always willing to give new things a try. We’d all be driving Model T’s otherwise.
 
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It's simple why hss ist used for standard curring tools. It's more expensive and you don't need the heat resistance of hss so why spend the money. Hss is designed to cut steel and can handle red hot temperatures without damage. You simply don't need that in a scalpelnorvchefs knife.
HSS is not that expensive but it’s not about the cost anyway for people like knife makers. It’s more about getting a sharp edge. I’m well aware about HSS being able to cut when red hot as I use a metal lathe every week, but we hardly need that turning wood do we? The important part of HSS for wood turners is its wear resistance. I’ve spoken to a couple of turners that always make the final finishing cuts with a high carbon scraper because of its keen edge.
 
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Having spent 38 years in machining and fabrication, when I started, HSS was top of the line for cutting tools. Wish I had a dollar for every 1/4”, 3/8” and 1/2” square lathe tool bit that I’ve profiled and sharpened and resharpened. Then came the carbide brazed on tool bits and then the indexable carbide inserts. Then came the coated drill bits and taps, etc. Point being, HSS properly sharpened will and has cut just about every metal out there except for metal that has been hardened. Will the edge dull? Yep. Will a HSS tool, nicely sharpened, put a finish cut on wood? Without a doubt. Yes, you may have to sharpen it more than some of the alloy tools out there now but it will, IMO, do the job. Now, with all that said, there are some cutting tools, drills, taps and etc. out there that say they are HSS but are a very low grade and aren’t up to the task. So buy a known brand.
 
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Well, the Big Ugly tool is tantung which is silver soldered onto cold rolled steel. Not sure how well the joints in Stuart's tools will hold. With the Big Ugly, it has bar stock under the cutting material. The Woodcut coring system has stellite for its cutting tips. Not sure how it is applied, but silver solder would work. I have replaced a couple of my McNaughton tips with the tantung. Both tantung and stellite are cutting materials for the metal working world. There are a lot of exotic metals now. I had thought that one reason Doug Thompson doesn't use the V15 is because it is so brittle. I know Glaser did make some V15 gouges, but they were not all that popular. V10 and M42 for me at this point, but I could change my mind some time....

robo hippy
 
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Sadly, seeing folks dismissing new ideas without even trying them is becoming all too often these days so not unexpected. :(
Why is it sad? I have a large rack of tools and they all get the job done. You suggest we buy all the new tools coming out just because it is a new idea? I'd wager to say that most of us don't NEED more tools. I'd also suggest these aren't new tools any longer. When did they first come out? 15 years ago? What's sad for Batty is that his 40/40 grind idea sold so much better than his high tech looking tools. How many Batty tools do you have Bill?
 
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HSS (M2) can be sharpened nicely with composite aluminum oxide wheels. Get a very soft wheel designed for tool grinding, not a cheap white wheel from the third world grinder makers. We use them all the time on my tool and cutter grinder. They can be dressed to run extremely smooth and vibration free. If I had a gouge grinding setup I probably would use al-ox wheels instead of plated CBN.

We also use composite CBN wheels on HSS where sharp profiles might have to be dressed into the wheels. These and Al-ox wheels are mounted on precision tapered hubs so the wheels can be changed without always having to re-dress them after changing wheels.

Plated CBN wheels don't (can't) run smoothly. They can't because of all the tolerances build in. They have a manufacturing roundness tolerance, mount hole tolerance to fit on a variety of grinders arbors and the loose tolerance on the grinder arbors. Then you have arbor run-out on cheapo grinders. Before you guys start telling me how smooth they run I suggest you get a look at a dressed wheel like on a surface grinder where any out of roundness shows on the work surface. Even free hand grinding on a plated CBN wheel will be noticeable because of the out of roundness..
 
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Even free hand grinding on a plated CBN wheel will be noticeable because of the out of roundness.
Noticeable by whom? Spider-Man?

Throw a dial gauge on any CBN wheel mounted properly on a decent grinder and there might be a few 1/100ths of play? I’m cutting wood (and resin), not trying to shave an ant’s toenail. (I know ants don’t have toenails, just roll with it, it’s past my bedtime.)

Surface grinders are a whole different animal as you no doubt know. First, they weigh a LOT more than a grinder and are therefore incredibly stable. Second, the tool is locked stationary while the wheel dresses which eliminates variability, whereas wood lathe tools are sweeping up/down every which way while sharpening, compounding errors.

Even so, a CBN grind achieved on a decent grinder (in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing) is darn near perfect for 98% of wood lathe sharpening needs. In the last 10 years I don’t think I’ve ever tried to convince myself I need my tools sharper than when they come off my CBNs.

But maybe I have low standards and now I need a surface grinder…. Don’t tell management…. 🤫
 
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Throw a dial gauge on any CBN wheel mounted properly on a decent grinder and there might be a few 1/100ths of play?
A few 1/100ths play, like 2/100ths or 3/100ths?? .020" to .030" play (run out) is pretty bad. I think you've made my case.

Woodturners and their grinding is interesting. Typically woodturners agonize over every detail on their choice of lathes, the motor type, the variable speed drive type, rotating headstock, etc, etc, striving for the best. Yet they rush out to Woodcraft for a piece crap grinder.

Just for the record I wasn't suggesting having surface grinder quality dressed wheels only that it might be an eye opener to compare plated CBN to perfection.
 
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this group, Doug. I have never heard of anyone having issues with CBN roundness. When was the last time you used a CBN wheel? If it was 15 years ago, I'd say perhaps things have changed.
 
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HSS (M2) can be sharpened nicely with composite aluminum oxide wheels. Get a very soft wheel designed for tool grinding, not a cheap white wheel from the third world grinder makers.

Hello Doug. I own a CBN wheel, but I am not the poster child for them. Do you have suggestions for composite aluminum oxide wheels? Brand, model and hardness grade? Thanks.
 
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this group, Doug. I have never heard of anyone having issues with CBN roundness. When was the last time you used a CBN wheel? If it was 15 years ago, I'd say perhaps things have changed.
You have now heard of one in this group that has had issues with a perfectly manufactured CBN wheel.

A CBN must run true to avoid both sharpening and wear issues on both the tool and the wheel. That means the grinder shaft and connecting hardware must be precise to maintain zero runout. I had a grinder that worked beautifully with stone wheels because they were able to be trued to compensate for runout etc. Put a cbn wheel on, even with machined and spherical washers to compensate, I was not be able to true it up.
Most of the cheapo grinders out there today, their shafts and connections are not engineered out of the box for the accuracy required to get CBN wheels running true. Some can be fiddled with, others not. `
 
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Throw a dial gauge on any CBN wheel mounted properly on a decent grinder and there might be a few 1/100ths of play? I’m cutting wood (and resin), not trying to shave an ant’s toenail. (I know ants don’t have toenails, just roll with it, it’s past my bedtime.)
Really John, hundredths? I would like to see a video of a CBN wheel showing it having 1/32" runout. The grinder would be walking around the shop with that kind of vibration!
 
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You have now heard of one in this group that has had issues with a perfectly manufactured CBN wheel.

A CBN must run true to avoid both sharpening and wear issues on both the tool and the wheel. That means the grinder shaft and connecting hardware must be precise to maintain zero runout. I had a grinder that worked beautifully with stone wheels because they were able to be trued to compensate for runout etc. Put a cbn wheel on, even with machined and spherical washers to compensate, I was not be able to true it up.
Most of the cheapo grinders out there today, their shafts and connections are not engineered out of the box for the accuracy required to get CBN wheels running true. Some can be fiddled with, others not. `

I think everyone can agree that everyone should have the best possible Baldor grinder on the heaviest possible stand bolted permanently to the floor in a dedicated sharpening room with an unlimited supply of friable wheels lined up alphabetically on shelving made by Sam Maloof from mallee burl hand sawn off the tree by 22 year old Australian virgins while aboriginal chiefs play drums and Nicole Kidman blows on a didgeridoo…

However…. Back in the real world a $150 Rikon grinder (on sale) with 2 decent CBN wheels ($400) and a Wolverine grinding set up ($175) is $725 well spent.

No truing up friable wheels, no constant adjusting of the Wolverine to compensate for the ever decreasing size of the wheel, 0% chance of a CBN breaking apart, never buying replacement wheels, and the ability to create a keen enough edge to cut any wood on the planet (and if not, welcome carbide tools to the party which can also be sharpened on a CBN in a pinch).
 
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Woodturners and their grinding is interesting. Typically woodturners agonize over every detail on their choice of lathes, the motor type, the variable speed drive type, rotating headstock, etc, etc, striving for the best. Yet they rush out to Woodcraft for a piece crap grinder.

I've got a mid-level Rikon grinder with CBN wheels. While a dressed stone wheel and/or a $1000 grinder might run a little truer, there's no perceivable bounce on my setup. My tools come off the grinder very sharp, and the limiting factor there is my own abilities. Sure, tolerances vary and stack, so there is bound to be a problem now and then with some combination of grinder and wheels, but if you can't get a tool as sharp as you could possibly need for woodturning off my ~$600 (on sale) grinder setup — plus honing and stropping, if that's your preference — then that would be on you.

Would I like a fancier grinding setup? Of course! Better yet, a couple of fancy grinding setups. But I'm running a $1300 lathe in a cramped garage so a collection of Baldors isn't in my immediate future.
 
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You have now heard of one in this group that has had issues with a perfectly manufactured CBN wheel.

Got it. Anyone else?

Most of the cheapo grinders out there today, their shafts and connections are not engineered out of the box for the accuracy required to get CBN wheels running true.

What do you consider a cheapo grinder? Most of the grinders the average guy uses are $150-200. I think any of those will handle a CBN just fine. Mine happens to be a Bucktool, but the Rikon is popular, too.
 
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My Delta 1HP grinder has serviced me for 25 years. First with Aluminum Oxide (which did a good job but did require service at regular intervals), then a 180 grit CBN wheel from Austria (left side) followed by a 80 grit CBN wheel from here in the states (right side). That 180 grit CBN looks like the day it was bought and it has sharpened my gouges perfectly for at least 15 years or better (a guess). I would be surprised if there was more than .0001 runout (will put a last word indicator on it and see).
 
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My Delta 1HP grinder has serviced me for 25 years. First with Aluminum Oxide (which did a good job but did require service at regular intervals), then a 180 grit CBN wheel from Austria (left side) followed by a 80 grit CBN wheel from here in the states (right side). That 180 grit CBN looks like the day it was bought and it has sharpened my gouges perfectly for at least 15 years or better (a guess). I would be surprised if there was more than .0001 runout (will put a last word indicator on it and see).
A couple of my club members had old deltas and they excepted CBNs without adjustment.
 

john lucas

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I've been using a cheap 8" slow speed grinder I got from Woodcraft before the started selling Rikon. Maybe way before..had it for probably 20 years. It's 1/2 horse and struggles a little with my steel wheel CBN but it still works great abd I've had that wheel on there for 10 years or so.
 
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Bill you are incorrect in your statement that hss will not sharpen as keen as carbon steel. I did tests yearszago and studied the tools under an electron microscope. I sharpened high carbon steel, Hss steel and a11 particle metal. All 3 were sharpened to far higher grits than we ever do on turning tools. They all tested to be the same sharpness on a commercial tester. When viewed under the electron microscope at extremely high magnification there was no real difference. All tested sharper than utility razor blades but because they were sharpened at 23 degrees could not match double edge blades. The polished edge however had the same size mountains as the double edge razors.
Agreed, you will find cut-throat razors are made from old school high carbon steel for one good reason, the keen edge from fine-grained HCS. This grain issue was one that kept Tungsten Carbide out of wood working for a season as it was refined to what we see today. I actually have a couple of HCS gouges I keep for those really difficult lumps of wood
 

john lucas

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As I stated above. In my tests High carbon steel did not get any sharper than the other more exotic steels. Early carbides would not get as sharp because the carbide particles were too large. That problem has been solved and current state of tge art carbide tools get really sharp. I did not include them in my test at the time because the question I was trying to answer was how hcs compared to the other state of the art tools.
The Hunter cupped carbide tools are extremely sharp but don't come sharpened at the angle I needed. They are mirror polished which you couldn't do with the older carbides.
 
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