Can someone please provide a better description with photos of the "inverted finish cut" that's depicted in photo 1 on page 36 of the winter Journal? I don't get it. 
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Technique question
- Thread starter pencheff
- Start date
I'd like to try to help, but have not recived my winter journal yet, it's in the mail, I hopepencheff said:Can someone please provide a better description with photos of the "inverted finish cut" that's depicted in photo 1 on page 36 of the winter Journal? I don't get it.
Nigel
You too huh? Looks like a honing cut. Far be it for me to disagree with Phil but what's doing the cutting if the flute is down?
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Pencheff I'll have to do a photo very late tonight. I won't get home until about 9 oclock. He's showing one method of cleaning up the endgrain on boxes. I use the toe of the skew and arc in from the bottom instead of starting from the top down. This leaves the edge of the skew cutting at an extremely acuate angle in relation to the rotation of the wood. An extremely clean.
Cutting with the flute down on a bowl gouge is like cutting endgrain with the skew. The handle is held low with the nose of the skew up. This leaves the cutting edge at about 45 degrees or less to the wood rotation. It is important to rub the bevel. Hold the gouge flute down, tip up cutting edge away from the wood with the bevel rubbing. Rotate the gouge until the cutting edge starts to cut. Now lift the handle and let it cut toward the center.
I'll try to do some photos tonight if I'm not to tired to do it safely.
Cutting with the flute down on a bowl gouge is like cutting endgrain with the skew. The handle is held low with the nose of the skew up. This leaves the cutting edge at about 45 degrees or less to the wood rotation. It is important to rub the bevel. Hold the gouge flute down, tip up cutting edge away from the wood with the bevel rubbing. Rotate the gouge until the cutting edge starts to cut. Now lift the handle and let it cut toward the center.
I'll try to do some photos tonight if I'm not to tired to do it safely.
After relooking at the photo and reading again, it looks like he's cutting above center with the wing of the gouge with the bevel rubbing cutting down to the center. Much like, as John said, you'd use a skew to do an endgrain slicing cut. With the bowl gouge I'd think you'd have to go from the top down for your entry cut to get the bevel rubbing. Never seen this done with a bowl gouge before, I'll have to give it a go.
Haven't seen the photo (no journal yet) but sounds like you guys are talking about shear scraping with the bowl gouge (AKA- "the Ellsworth Shuffle"). This is a technique where the gouge is held with the point almost straight up and the bottom wing being used to shear scrape the piece. If so, the bevel isn't being used and the cutting edge is being presented to the wood in an almost vertical, straight on orientation. The reason you can do this with the bowl gouge so well is that the cutting edge is located below centerline of the tool, preventing the pressure of the wood from drawing the tool into the piece. It's similar to shear scraping with a scraper but more delicate, hence the nice surface.
Dietrich
Dietrich
Flute down
The text description specifically states "flute down"... not flute sideways like a shear scrape. The photo is not quite close enough to make out the exact position of the tool but it does indeed look like it is flute-side-down on the tool rest. That's what is so confusing.
dkulze said:
The text description specifically states "flute down"... not flute sideways like a shear scrape. The photo is not quite close enough to make out the exact position of the tool but it does indeed look like it is flute-side-down on the tool rest. That's what is so confusing.
All your doing is a push cut with the handle held down and out slightly. It works great. You could shave a mouses %$@ with that cut !
If I understand correctly, the cut is used by Bill Grumbine in his new video, and the flute is upside down and you are cutting with the wing that is (now) on the left hand side. He did note that people were sometimes cutting with both wings, but that is a big no no
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Pencheff It is definitely flute down. I've played with this cut but I prefer my skew for that kind of work. I try to see how many different ways I can use each tool in hopes of finding something useful to me. I was discussing this with the former editor of Woodturning(I'm having a senior moment or I'd tell you his name), and he was demonstrating cleaning up the inside of a bowl with a roughing gouge turned upside down. I thought I was the only one who had tried that. It's not my prefered method of course but used properly is safe and really shear cuts the fibers.
Bill Grumbine
In Memorium
I got my journal today, so now I can get into the discussion. The cut demonstrated and asked about is similar to what I call the tangent cut in my videos (and everywhere else for that matter). It looks different since it is being applied to end grain on a spindle turning instead of the outside of a bowl. I don't have any pictures specific to the cut, but I do have one attached below which shows the taangent cut up close and personal. For the cut in the magazine, the gouge is rubbing the other side of the tool, but in the same manner. I hope this helps you out some.
Like John, I would probably use a skew for this, but I can see how a gouge would do the job, and might have less chance of catching.
Good luck with it!
Bill
Like John, I would probably use a skew for this, but I can see how a gouge would do the job, and might have less chance of catching.
Good luck with it!
Bill
Attachments
Bill Grumbine
In Memorium
n7bsn said:If I understand correctly, the cut is used by Bill Grumbine in his new video, and the flute is upside down and you are cutting with the wing that is (now) on the left hand side. He did note that people were sometimes cutting with both wings, but that is a big no no
That's more of a shear scrape you are describing, and the big problems come with the upper edge drifts away from the wood! Then it is only a matter of time before the big catch comes.
Bill
I gotta get my journal. What you're showing, Bill, is a bevel supported cut. What I was talking about was a flute down, angled shear scrape. Very stable, since you're using the bottom wing, and actually not catch prone at all once you have the techinque. I had many catches learning how until that "Ahhhhh, that's what you meant" moment. Pretty much none since.
Dietrich
Dietrich
dkulze said:
Get out your camera and give us a picture of the rest, the tool, and the wood being "cut."
We'll understand if the wood ain't spinning.
Please?
It will be a while before I could try and photograph this, but lets see if I can describe the cut enough for folks. Its one of my favorites.
I may get more of a giggle from everyone by attempting to describe this, but what the heck!!
Start off with Bills photo.
Assume the lathe is OFF.
Rotate the shaft counterclockwise until both wings are touching the wood. Then, rotate clockwise just a smidgeon so the wing closest to the headstock is off the wood by about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Your cutting will be done with the wing closest to the tail stock. The cutting edge would be angled a bit towards the headstock. The angle is roughly the same angle you see if you look on your computer keyboard at the backslash key, \ , the one just under the backspace key.
I am right handed, so if I were holding the tool in Bill's picture I would have my left thumb pressing the tool shaft against the tool rest to steady it. The finger position I like is a bit hard to describe, but, if you held your left hand with your index finger extended as if you wanted a little bird to land on it... I run the top of my index finger along the bottom of my tool rest as a guide. I trap the tool shaft with my thumb against the toolrest and my index finger.
The pressure used is pretty light. My right hand would be holding the the tool handle against my right thigh, again, very loosely. I move the tool with my body. If the cut is more comfortable free hand (not using my thigh to support the tool handle) I will move my right hand way up the shaft. And of course, as with most exterior cuts, you watch the top of the bowl to see how deep your cut is and adjust the cut based on that.
This is a very light cut, but it gives you a really smooth surface. I usually get my smoothest cut going downslope as you might expect, which would be the opposite of what I just described, but I thought I could describe this best if I used Bill's photo as a starting point. So.....to reverse this cut and go downslope as it is shown in Bill's photo just reverse all this and have the tool face the tailstock instead of the head stock. The toolshaft angle would be close to the angle of your keyboards regular slash key /. The wing that is 1/8 of an inch off the wood would be the wing closest to the tail stock and you are cutting with the wing closest to the headstock. Now you are set to cut from the headstock towards the tailstock and would be going "downslope."
Did this help or hurt?? Or just get a hearty gaffaw from everyone??? <grin>
Hope someone has a camera for the next explanation!!
Dave
I may get more of a giggle from everyone by attempting to describe this, but what the heck!!
Start off with Bills photo.
Assume the lathe is OFF.
Rotate the shaft counterclockwise until both wings are touching the wood. Then, rotate clockwise just a smidgeon so the wing closest to the headstock is off the wood by about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Your cutting will be done with the wing closest to the tail stock. The cutting edge would be angled a bit towards the headstock. The angle is roughly the same angle you see if you look on your computer keyboard at the backslash key, \ , the one just under the backspace key.
I am right handed, so if I were holding the tool in Bill's picture I would have my left thumb pressing the tool shaft against the tool rest to steady it. The finger position I like is a bit hard to describe, but, if you held your left hand with your index finger extended as if you wanted a little bird to land on it... I run the top of my index finger along the bottom of my tool rest as a guide. I trap the tool shaft with my thumb against the toolrest and my index finger.
The pressure used is pretty light. My right hand would be holding the the tool handle against my right thigh, again, very loosely. I move the tool with my body. If the cut is more comfortable free hand (not using my thigh to support the tool handle) I will move my right hand way up the shaft. And of course, as with most exterior cuts, you watch the top of the bowl to see how deep your cut is and adjust the cut based on that.
This is a very light cut, but it gives you a really smooth surface. I usually get my smoothest cut going downslope as you might expect, which would be the opposite of what I just described, but I thought I could describe this best if I used Bill's photo as a starting point. So.....to reverse this cut and go downslope as it is shown in Bill's photo just reverse all this and have the tool face the tailstock instead of the head stock. The toolshaft angle would be close to the angle of your keyboards regular slash key /. The wing that is 1/8 of an inch off the wood would be the wing closest to the tail stock and you are cutting with the wing closest to the headstock. Now you are set to cut from the headstock towards the tailstock and would be going "downslope."
Did this help or hurt?? Or just get a hearty gaffaw from everyone??? <grin>
Hope someone has a camera for the next explanation!!
Dave
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David Somers said:
Dave, if you get hold of Ellsworth's video on his signature gouge, you'll find that cut called a "shear scrape" with the tool's axis held at about 45* from the vertical, the high wing just off the wood, and the left hand putting pressure down onto the tool rest, and the "bottom" wing doing the cutting. The resultant shavings have been call "Angel Hair" because they're so fine. It will cut both left-to-right and right-to left, but it's best (smoothest) performance is right-to-left moving downhill over the grain from the rim to the foot.
[I think]
Yep! Believe it or not, but that video is how I learned to turn. The Ellsworth gouge was my first tool and all I had was the video to go by. It was great. Clear, easy to follow, the tool quickly became my favorite, even now as my "collection" of tools grows.Mark Mandell said:Dave, if you get hold of Ellsworth's video on his signature gouge, you'll find that cut called a "shear scrape" with the tool's axis held at about 45* from the vertical, the high wing just off the wood, and the left hand putting pressure down onto the tool rest, and the "bottom" wing doing the cutting. The resultant shavings have been call "Angel Hair" because they're so fine. It will cut both left-to-right and right-to left, but it's best (smoothest) performance is right-to-left moving downhill over the grain from the rim to the foot.
[I think]
Bill Grumbine
In Memorium
Yeah, but...
The cut described in the journal says, "...invert the bowl gouge, flute down..."
He also says in the caption:
"If you rub the bevel..."
By definition, this is not a shear scrape, and in my experience, a shear scrape is not going to give a smooth glass like finish on end grain in a spindle anyway. Describing a shear scrape with text, the sentence would have to say flute sideways, or something to that effect. It is not even a vertical shear scrape (my terminology) because of the orientation of the tool. The shavings shown in the picture are not those I would associate with a shear scrape either, but rather with the cut as I described it already. It has to be a bevel supported shearing cut similar to what I call the tangent cut.
Bill
The cut described in the journal says, "...invert the bowl gouge, flute down..."
He also says in the caption:
"If you rub the bevel..."
By definition, this is not a shear scrape, and in my experience, a shear scrape is not going to give a smooth glass like finish on end grain in a spindle anyway. Describing a shear scrape with text, the sentence would have to say flute sideways, or something to that effect. It is not even a vertical shear scrape (my terminology) because of the orientation of the tool. The shavings shown in the picture are not those I would associate with a shear scrape either, but rather with the cut as I described it already. It has to be a bevel supported shearing cut similar to what I call the tangent cut.
Bill
Last edited:
The shear scrape doesn't leave a mirror finish like a nice cut does. What it does do is clear up tearout wonderfully. It also allows for very small corrections. I don't use it unless I need to but can clean it up to a mirror finish starting with 320.
Dietrich
Dietrich
I gotta try this cut but believe me I will have All my protective gear on when I do. It looks to me like it should work very well but a slight misposition and it is instant catch and a really bad one.
If not it won't be the first time I was wrong.
If not it won't be the first time I was wrong.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Hope I can clear up some of the discussion. Below is a photo of the cut Phil is talking about in the article. Flute down rubbing the bevel, a bevel rubbing cut, not a scrape or shear scrape. Leaves a surface similar to that using a skew.
I've also show two ways of doing this cut with the skew. The first one that is cutting at the same angle as the gouge but as you can readily see this cut takes a lot of skill to not get a catch. This is a heel down cut and it's way to easy to catch the toe. The lower photo is the cut I prefer with the toe down. I start from below the center line and lower the handle to cut toward the middle. A very easy to control cut and very clean.
I've also show two ways of doing this cut with the skew. The first one that is cutting at the same angle as the gouge but as you can readily see this cut takes a lot of skill to not get a catch. This is a heel down cut and it's way to easy to catch the toe. The lower photo is the cut I prefer with the toe down. I start from below the center line and lower the handle to cut toward the middle. A very easy to control cut and very clean.
Attachments
AHA! Gotcha now. Completely different from what I was talking about. I tend to use the skew with the toe down also for that cut. Fairly stable if you set your bevel.
Dietrich
Dietrich
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Using the toe down means you do have a slight pick-up do to the geometry of the skew. A straight chisel cuts down against supported fiber, minimizing that bit of pickup. A broad section gouge has the natural secondary relief, with the edge curving out of the cut. Recall how you cut a cove or use straight edge as a beading tool to visualize the action.
With the toe of the skew up you avoid the pickup, but you have to be careful to advance the toe as you swing down, or you get the dreaded spiral.
With the toe of the skew up you avoid the pickup, but you have to be careful to advance the toe as you swing down, or you get the dreaded spiral.
john lucas said:
That shows the cut very well John, thanks. The problem with the photo accompanying the text in the journal is due to the perspective there's no reference to indicate if the tool is parallel to the floor, handle down or handle up. Also the contact with the wood is completely obscured. Your photo taken from the other side of the lathe, from below, showing the business end of the tool in contact with the material is exactly what I needed to see.
Ahem. Perhaps the photo editors of the Journal are reading this?