Thin walled box went out of round

[Kyle Young]

I turned this box elder maple burl box. Its about 3" x 3" and is pretty thin. The lid fit perfect with very light resistance (not snap fit). 2 days later, the body of the box did what wood does. It can push the lid down, but it pops back up in any orientation.
My question is this: Has anyone had any success "training" the wood back into round? I thought about putting small, lightly damp sponge in a plastic cup inside the box and then close the lid with a rubber band to hold it closed. leave it for a week or so and let it fully dry with the lid holding the body round.

Worth a shot? Going to ruin the box?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Boxes need to be turned from thoroughly dry wood. Once the bound water is gone from the wood you won’t have much success in forcing it back to perfectly round.

 

[Kyle Young]

Boxes need to be turned from thoroughly dry wood. Once the bound water is gone from the wood you won’t have much success in forcing it back to perfectly round.

Agreed. It was a small piece of wood that was a few years dry but clearly I still had movement.
I fitted the body to the mounted lid and used the tailstock to hold it while I turn nearly all the tenon off. Because the box is pretty thin I didn't have enough pressure and briefly got a bit of a spin at the lid joint. My guess is that the heat generated didn't help the situation.

People mold flat stock into all kinds of shapes with a steam box. I wondered if something similar would work in this case. Thanks @Bill Boehme . If anyone else has ideas, I'm open. I may need to apply a bit of sandpaper to the lids tenon and take the fit out of it to make it a gravity lid.

 

[robo hippy]

I ALWAYS rough turn my boxes before finish turning them. A trick I learned from Richard Raffen. He hollows them out and then tapes the ends together and forgets about them for a while. With any wood over 8/4 2 inches thick, it never reaches "equilibrium". This means that the inside will always have a higher moisture content than the outside, and this is why you should rough turn a box this size. Even turning end grain, they should be rough turned first. All wood will "adjust" to having stock removed. I am not sure if it is possible to get the box to move the way you want it. You would have to moisten the wood/raise the water contend, and then put it in a form that presses on the outside, not the inside. It may work. It may not. Eric Lofstrom turns some boxes with 1 inch tenons on them, and he turns them down to final thickness over about 6 months.

robo hippy

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I ALWAYS rough turn my boxes before finish turning them. A trick I learned from Richard Raffen. He hollows them out and then tapes the ends together and forgets about them for a while. With any wood over 8/4 2 inches thick, it never reaches "equilibrium". This means that the inside will always have a higher moisture content than the outside, and this is why you should rough turn a box this size. Even turning end grain, they should be rough turned first. All wood will "adjust" to having stock removed. I am not sure if it is possible to get the box to move the way you want it. You would have to moisten the wood/raise the water contend, and then put it in a form that presses on the outside, not the inside. It may work. It may not. Eric Lofstrom turns some boxes with 1 inch tenons on them, and he turns them down to final thickness over about 6 months.

robo hippy

This is what I was going to say as far as the reason it went out of round.
It is highly unlikely that you would be able to save that as a box.

 

[Dean Center]

When turning boxes, even with 'perfectly dry' wood, there seems to be a release of tension from the wood. The best solution, IMHO, is to turn the box but don't try for a good fit of tenon and recess. Let the box sit for a few days, rechuck it, and then make the type of fit you want. That way it's much more likely to stay. That said, I'm in an arid climate and 3 days is enough. Eric Lofstrom, on the other hand, lives west of Seattle and wants a 'piston' fit, where when you hold the box suspended by one part, it slowly oozes open. That requires a long tenon and I'm more interested in a good grain match than a magical fit. (In my experience, recipients aren't excited about a snug fit, like us woodturners)

 

[hockenbery]

Worth a shot? Going to ruin the box?

One issue with your box is the knot near the rim. I try to avoid knots near the rim. They distort the uniform warp of an object with the localized warp around the knot. A split will often open up in a knot.

Knots are just problems waiting to present themselves.

Away from the rim knots are less worrisome.

 

[Gregory Hickman]

Knots are just problems waiting to present themselves

Richard Raffan had said in his past a blank with an imperfection, like a knot, would be tossed. I can see the wisdom in that thought process.

Gregory

 

[john lucas]

Exactly whet everyone is saying. I've tried different techniques to save boxes. The onlyvway I've been successful is to remove woid abd have a loose fitting lid.

 

[Kyle Young]

Exactly whet everyone is saying. I've tried different techniques to save boxes. The onlyvway I've been successful is to remove woid abd have a loose fitting lid.

This is where I am heading. The problem is very slight... it just pops up just enough to create a seam in this seamless lid. A little sanding and it should settle.

Thank you all for the responses. In short the guidance is... good wood makes for good results. No knots. Fully dried. Drowning in patience. Precision craftsmanship. This is why mastering woodturning is a lifelong pursuit.

But, free F.O.G. wood is irresistible to me still.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

would love to hear input from the Hoff brothers.

 

[John K Jordan]

People often like boxes that can be opened easily with one hand.
I've nearly quit making boxes with even slightly snug lids. Too much chance of sticking with change.

Instead, I've started making them with tapered lids: large or small. With a taper, the fit is much more forgiving. This one is 3-3/4" wide, 4" tall including finial knob - the lid and the seat in the box are both tapered and the lid fits nicely down inside the taper. I like the look of the lid "inside" the rim. I made templates to get the taper angle right so the lid wouldn't be sloppy.



This little box also has a tapered lid, slightly tapered so it drops in place.
The form was inspired by a Knud Øland piece Lisi showed me.
English walnut/black cherry.



It's hard to see but this one has a slight taper too, on both lid and base. Elm.



If I want a seamless outside form I don't use a taper but try to turn from very dry and stable wood. Still turn thick and wait a week or two for any stresses to stabilize before turning to fit.)
African blackwood.



JKJ

 

[Bill Boehme]

Agreed. It was a small piece of wood that was a few years dry but clearly I still had movement.

Even bone-dry wood can move. This happens when internal stresses exist in the wood. These stresses happen when asymmetrical loads exist when the tree is alive. Asymmetrical load exists in limb wood and in the trunks of leaning trees. However, as you remove wood from the blank the stresses are no longer in equilibrium. Eventually, if the wood gets thin enough and/or the stress gets large enough the wood will warp and possibly split.

 

[robo hippy]

I have made "3" second boxes, as in 3 seconds to drop off if you pick it up by the lid, with a 1/2 inch tenon. The key to that is perfectly parallel sides to tenon and recess. Eric's evolution of his boxes is interesting, and he used to use shorter tenons. The ones he does now are the lid has a perfect parallel recess, and the tenon is just slightly curved with the "perfect" point being about half way down the tenon. I remember seeing Soren Berger do a "flutter" box years ago and Can't remember if his were perfectly parallel or not. It was a while ago.

robo hippy

 

[Michael Nathal]

I think it is possible to change the shape by steam bending. I would figure out a way to clamp the wood the way you want it, wrap the whole thing in a wet cloth towel, and microwave it for 5 minutes or so. Remove the towel, leave it clamped until it cools down. Clamping would be challenging, it has to be microwave safe plus heat resistant. I don't think rubber bands will work. Perhaps you can do the microwave thing first and then clamp it afterwards, while it is still steaming hot. I have seen Michael Hosaluk and John Beaver steam bend wood in this manner.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

People mold flat stock into all kinds of shapes with a steam box. I wondered if something similar would work in this case.

The problem is very slight... it just pops up just enough to create a seam in this seamless lid. A little sanding and it should settle.

Perhaps you can do the microwave thing first and then clamp it afterwards, while it is still steaming hot. I have seen Michael Hosaluk and John Beaver steam bend wood in this manner.

The salad forks as shown are ones that I did after a demo by Mike Hosaluk, which I did using air dried straight grained birch, is a stand alone curve without any requirements to fit accurately to another piece. The problem as KY stated is minor and is in burl wood turned very thin so it is unlikely that steam bending would help any more or as much as his stated fix.