Tormek Confusion

[Michael Murane]

I'm a new turner and purchased a nice Tormek - 8 system. Since I have little experience with sharpening tools I allowed my research on water sharpening vs. traditional grinding to sway me. I admit that the propaganda that the Tormek people put out probably swayed me more than it should. Anyway I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

Use Tormek for everything:
1 shaping tools (old ones that need refurbishing- I have a bunch)
2 sharpening newly purchased tools - Is this necessary?)
3 routine sharping and honing tools as needed.

Add a slow/fast/both speed grinder to the mix?

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

 

[William Leigher]

I have been turning for 4 years - I am still learning. I started with a Kodiak system from Woodturners Wonders. I liked the captive system more than the other high speed sharpen systems. But I never really felt I was getting a great edge. It was probably a combination of things which included my relative inexperience. After two years I added a Tormek and for gouges it is my primary sharpening system and I continue to add to my Tormek system to include a diamond wheel. That said I still use the CBN system for sharpening scrapers and skews as well as for reshaping. I have come to know turners in my club who get excellent results from both CBN and aluminum oxide wheels so experience clearly plays a part. But I think that the Tormek recipes are simple and straightforward and repeatable for new turners and I believe that the Tormek comes with a shorter learning curve. My turning got better with the Tormek and I have no way to know how much of that was experience. You do need a high speed grinder to supplement the Tormek but it probably isn’t the next thing for a new turner with a Tormek.

 

[Brian Gustin]

1) Shaping tools , you'll need a quite coarse wheel or it would take forever on a 1000 grit tormek diamond, I would think (I have no tormek, so I wouldn't know) So I imagine the 2 or 3 diamond wheels you would need (plus changing them out for each different process) could be a hefty expense both in time & money.
2) Sharpening newly purchased tools: Yes almost always you'll never have a perfectly sharp edge on a new tool out of the box - The AMOUNT of sharpening varies depending on tool maker, I imagine.

Overall, for a newbie, I'd probably have suggested a Rikon 1/2 HP slow speed with the original AlOx wheel on one side and a 180 CBN on the other , in combo with a Wolverine jig and its Vari-Grind attachment (I also have the skew attachment) - the original AlOx wheel works well when re-shaping is needed (and for sharpening carbon steel tools, which tend to "load up" a CBN wheel) - mainly because until you have found "your" grind(s) (everybody has a preference) you won't really know what setup you'd want on the Tormek, and the constant re-shaping , grinding, etc would be tedious with a Tormek, IMHO.

 

[RichColvin]

Michael,

I have been using a Tormek over 20 years. What I’ve found is that significant reshaping of a tool which is high speed steel, then using a bench grinder with the Tormek BGM-100 will make the process much faster. Not better, just faster.

But this is really only for HSS: Other steels will overheat too easily. Reshaping carbon steel tools on the Tormek is fast and easy.

Sharpening and honing is quite easily done on the Tormek.

I hope that helps.

 

[Don Stephan]

For steel woodturning tools, I would suggest there are three factors for an effective cutting edge for an intended use: an appropriate shape, an appropriate bevel at the cutting edge, and a sharp cutting edge.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I'm a new turner and purchased a nice Tormek - 8 system. Since I have little experience with sharpening tools I allowed my research on water sharpening vs. traditional grinding to sway me. I admit that the propaganda that the Tormek people put out probably swayed me more than it should. Anyway I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

Use Tormek for everything:
1 shaping tools (old ones that need refurbishing- I have a bunch)
2 sharpening newly purchased tools - Is this necessary?)
3 routine sharping and honing tools as needed.

Add a slow/fast/both speed grinder to the mix?

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

Hello Michael-

You're a new turner, welcome to it! Try not to drown in the details and choices, keep it simple as you learn and grow. Master the basics first.

Your #1- you have a bunch of old tools that need refurbishing. Old turning tools, other woodworking tools (plane blades, bench and carving chisels, etc.)? If they are turning tools, how old? What brand? What kind of steel? How much rehab? If they say Sears on them, toss them. I've been there. If they are carbon steel turning tools (lots of bright, pale yellow sparks on a regular dry bench grinder), I'd probably steer you away from rehabing those, too (been there), and instead concentrate on modern turning tools. And you don't need multiples of every type of tool, a basic kit that does 80-90% of your spindle and faceplate turning can be done with 5 or 6 tools (*see below). Shaping is generally done once to a tool, sharpening is done constantly. Is there someone local (local club member, maybe) who could help you regrind on a bench grinder, then you maintain them on your Tormek?

Your #2- sharpening newly purchased tools, yes, it is necessary, and then sharpening them every "few minutes" thereafter. I'm guessing you meant reshaping new tools. Most times, yes, in particular bowl gouges. Spindle gouges, yes, some reshaping. Roughing gouges, parting tools, skew chisels, maybe not as much, or not anything your Tormek couldn't handle with some patience on your part, but shaping is more or less a one-time event, after that it is a quick trip to the wheel, even the Tormek, to sharpen a dulled edge.

Your #3, this is where your Tormek will accel, maintaining the sharp edges you need to turn wood. And if you do other types of woodworking, those edges as well.

All grinder types, all jigs, all freehand methods, are nothing more than a means to an end, to bring two plains together at a zero-degree radius line that we call a cutting edge. Time, patience, practice, and carefully examining what and why you are doing something at the grinder will help you master the process as you go. Once it clicks in your mind, it's easy. I would not abandon the Tormek yet. Discover how it can be your go-to machine. You'll learn its strengths and weaknesses and how it can help. Then you'll know what to do to either supplement the Tormek, or go in a different direction from it. Information overload is all too easy in this craft. Remember, the basics will nearly always get you there, the rest is someone trying to lighten your wallet.

(*Basic tool kit for the beginner, in my opinion- M2 High Speed Steel tools, time-tested brands such as Robert Sorby or Crown: 1/2" bowl gouge with a swept back grind; 1/2" spindle gouge with a swept back grind; 1" rectangular cross section skew chisel (no oval skew chisels!!!); 1" round nose scraper; 3/4" roughing gouge will handle most spindle roughing; 1/8" parting tool which can serve a few purposes. That's 6 tools of good historic reputation that will serve you well for years. Other sizes of the same tool types can be added later. Boutique, hi-tech steel tools with fancy aluminum handles and grind profiles named after professional turners can be added later if you desire, but for hobbiest turners they shouldn't be your priority in the early stages.)

 

[hockenbery]

I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

sharpening is an area of woodturning that has multitude of machine types and a wide divergence of methods. Hard to pick the best one because they all work.

the tormek is one that works well. My suggestion is to stick with it for a couple years or so. Then after you get a lot of turning in and see club demos and maybe take a class or a worksho. You’ll have a feeling about maybe trying another system.

i’ve had a tormek for about 30 years. Still use it for skews and have the strop wheel
some Turners use only the tormek.

when I go places to turn or teach. Clubs, symposiums, craft schools.
they will usually have an 8” grinder and a woulverine set up. Wheels are Switching toward CBN. But lots of matrix wheels.
that is sort of a standard but

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

I agree with the other Brian. Trying to reshape/refurbish tools on the tormek will be slow, but it's great for honing. Maybe check into a turning club and see if you can make a new friend with a grinder and jigs. I've also found that whenever you get a new tool, it will just take a while to figure out how to use it and the a little longer to use it efficiently.

 

[David Croxton]

I'm a new turner and purchased a nice Tormek - 8 system. Since I have little experience with sharpening tools I allowed my research on water sharpening vs. traditional grinding to sway me. I admit that the propaganda that the Tormek people put out probably swayed me more than it should. Anyway I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

Use Tormek for everything:
1 shaping tools (old ones that need refurbishing- I have a bunch)
2 sharpening newly purchased tools - Is this necessary?)
3 routine sharping and honing tools as needed.

Add a slow/fast/both speed grinder to the mix?

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

Hello Michael,
Welcome to the wonderful world of woodturning! I was in the same boat that you are in right now - way back when I started woodworking! You are right, it sometimes can be hard not to get overwhelmed or confused with all of the information out there these days! You purchased a nice sharpening system - as with any tool, it will take a little patience & practice to learn how to use the machine & jigs properly in order to achieve good results on your tools. I would also suggest that if you can remain focused on learning how to use your Tormek system via their web tutorials, books and/or DVD (if Tormek still includes them with the kit) then many of your questions will be answered and your anxiety level about sharpening will decrease!
I bought my Tormek system over 20 years ago - I was just getting into wood carving back then and realized that I needed to get & keep those darn things super sharp! I eventually learned that, even though I had purchased top quality hand gouges from my local woodworking supply store, right out of the box, the factory edge was not good enough to carve with. There are many ways to get a sharp edge on a tool - and it is good to know several different methods because you never know when you might need to use something else on the fly - every method takes practice in order to get good results! For me, the Tormek system just made sense and it has been my go-to method for sharpening just about everything for many years. I've used it on many different kinds of tools - carpenters chisels, bock plane blades, scissors, kitchen knives, hunting/fishing knives, an axe, hand carving tools of all shapes, all woodturning tools, and believe it or not - lawnmower blades (over kill - to be sure, but man, what an incredible difference it made on the lawn!!).
So, to your questions -
1. yes - having a bunch of tools that need sharpened will help you practice this skill!! Depending on the type of tool steel, you can sharpen just about anything with the Tormek - use the grading stone to adjust the surface quality of the grind wheel - you may find that not every tool needs to be ground to a honed edge or for that matter it may not be necessary to begin grinding every tool on with the grinding wheel surfaced to course. For example: you might not want a roughing gouge that you only use to remove bark to have a honed or even a fine edge - a course grind might be sufficient for your requirements. Example#2 : some tools might need just a minor touch up --- you can do that if the grinding wheel is already surfaced to fine and then decide if you want to hone it only if you require a finer surface cut. Example # 3: you are in the middle making your final finishing cuts and noticing that the tool isn't leaving as clean of a cut as it did after the last time you honed the edge - you may be able to go back and just re-hone the tool edge and continue turning. I have found that, whenever possible, it saves me time if I do all the tools that need a course grinding to do them all at the same time first - then regrade the grinding wheel to fine and continue to sharpen all the tools that need it. That being said, I am still on my original stone wheel that came with the machine - I try to be diligent and careful with the edges of my cutting tools - I do not make it a habit to continually regrade the grinding wheel back and forth between course and fine - this will definitely wear out the stone faster!
2. yes -I have found that even new tools, even if they say they are sharpened at the factory will need touched up on the wheel graded to fine --- at the very least they will need honed.
3. yes and with personal preferences - You might decide that you may not need every tool to have a honed edge - only by turning will you learn where you want to go with the surface quality of your work - your experience will guide you.

As a side note - I have recently considered adding a Tormek diamond grinding wheel to my sharpening system - my thoughts are since all my jigs and accessories are Tormek it would save me from jamming more equipment into my limited space and spending extra $$ because I would also have to buy a grinder motor and tool holding rig/system.

Hope this info helps alleviate any buyer's remorse you might have right now -- Good Luck!
Dave

 

[Doug Freeman]

I already had a Grizzly wet grinder knockoff for planes and chisels when I started turning ~12 yrs ago. Initial plan was to use it for everything, but after spending hrs trying to reshape a tool a few times I got an 8” slow grinder. I use the tormek bgm-100 tool arm on one wheel (36 gr stone) of the slow grinder to shape tools.

I only use the wet grinder for gouges, with the svd-86 tormek jig. The jig is used on the tool arm on the stone wheel to shape and make 2nd and 3 rd bevels for bevel length and heel relief, similar to the Vector grind jig approach. I leave the main bevel ~1/16-1/8” wide, which is sharpened on the wet grinder. Jigged Tools can be moved between the wet and dry grinders interchangeably.

I use an 80 gr stone wheel on the other side of the dry grinder with an adj platform. Its used for all “flat” turning tools like scrapers and skews. These are honed by hand with diamond hones as needed.

The wet wheel is grade with the fine side of a tormek grading wheel as needed, providing as fine of a bevel finish as any cbn wheel, and less material removal as well due to the slow speed and high grit. My gouges last a long time.

As the bevel increases in width with resharpening, I take the tool to the dry grinder to take the width back down. A narrow bevel and relief allows the gouge to make sharper turns, not “bruise” the wood, as well as have less drag vs a full bevel.

 

[Mike Novak]

I started with a Tormek clone from Wen. Reshaping was a painful process, taking an hour or more. Fortunately, I don’t reshape much, so not a big deal. After a couple years, I realized that the low quality stone was not giving me the sharpness I wanted. This was a big deal. After seeing what Tormek wanted for a quality stone, I decided to go with a Rikon 1/2 hp with CBN wheels for about the same price. I rigged up my own universal support using a long 12mm bar that extends over both wheels. I’m still using the Tormek jigs, and can go from coarse to fine wheel without messing with the USB.

The Rikon is too fast for knives and will burn them, and it doesn’t have a honing wheel, so I still use the Wen for knives

I’m happy with my Rikon, but still wonder if I would have been better off getting a quality wheel for the Wen.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I'm a new turner and purchased a nice Tormek - 8 system. Since I have little experience with sharpening tools I allowed my research on water sharpening vs. traditional grinding to sway me. I admit that the propaganda that the Tormek people put out probably swayed me more than it should. Anyway I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

Use Tormek for everything:
1 shaping tools (old ones that need refurbishing- I have a bunch)
2 sharpening newly purchased tools - Is this necessary?)
3 routine sharping and honing tools as needed.

Add a slow/fast/both speed grinder to the mix?

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

For the first question, no I would not try to reshape or shape new tools with the Tormek. I owned the T-8 for about 2 years and I never could get a tool fully reshaped as it took much too long. Get yourself a slow speed grinder, Jet is a good option with at least one CBN wheel (180#) and the Wolverine system, along with CSUSA's Raptor setup tools (a must have!) These three items is all I use for my routine sharpening and reshaping and I doubt I will ever switch.

Second question, it depends on the brand. The boutique brands (D-Way, Carter, Thompson) are sharp out of the box, but the other common brands (Sorby, Crown, Pinnacle) do need to be touched up on the grinder before use.

Third question, yes if you are lightly touching up a dull tool, then the T-8 will work great. Also by using the honing wheel it makes the tool very sharp and burr free which is nice for the gouges but not necessarily the scrapers.

Verdict: I would keep both (I still have my T-8 and pull the it out sometimes) but I think you will find yourself using the grinder with the Wolverine setup the most.

 

[Dean Center]

Glenn Lucas taught his kids to sharpen his tools on a Tormek, so you can do it, too. In fact, you might want to get his sharpening DVD, which includes the Tormek, and his Tormek settings chart. The chart is specific to his gouge grinds, but I believe information is available about how to adjust for different grinds.

 

[Gord Cameron]

Having used the Tormek system and a low-speed / CBN grinder set up for the past 20 years, I would say (as other have): shape tools (and do scrapers) on the a CBN system and if you keep the Tormek, use if for regular sharpening/honing of gouges. While I like the quiet, dust-free operation of the Tormek, I find that a slow-speed grinder with CBN wheels and a decent jig solves the main problems that I used to go to the Tormek for (over-heated steel, repeatable grinds) and does it a lot faster and without as much fuss. So, I don't use the Tormek as much as I used to. I love it, and wouldn't want to be without it, I just find myself at the CBN wheels more often.

 

[John Walls]

I'd toss the old tools, new ones are inexpensive unless you chase name brands. I use mostly Sorby myself. I use my T8 to touch-up edges, quick, easy, very repeatable. I make most my own scrapers now, I rough shape the steel on an old 8" grinder by hand, no jigs, same one I resharpen my mower blades on so nothing fancy. I take the roughly shaped tools to the T8 with coarse diamond wheel. It is still slow but the shape is close already. Finish up on the diamond fine grit wheel. I went through 3 Tormek wet-stone wheels before getting the diamond wheels, the stones go too fast, must be flattened/ground too often adding a lot of time to the process. It works for newbies and those that don't mind the time.

I touch up every new gouge, even though mostly protected during shipment, taking a minute to ensure it's as sharp as possible before it sees any wood is quick/easy/painless. Sometimes I will rub the new edge on the leather strop, sometimes not as the burr vanishes quickly when used. I don't strop the bevel on the leather wheel, takes too much time to make it mirror slick. The amount of time it takes to move/reset the jigs, I've already cut wood and back for another touch-up. I've also not seen much difference on bowl gouges between touch-ups or touch-ups with strop for longevity or cutting ability. YMMV

 

[John Walls]

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

Don't worry 'bout it, that's what everyone is here for, ask and learn. For me, I learn alot from reading on here. I still and will always be in learning mode, there is a lot of stuff to learn/enjoy.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, if I am doing serious reshaping of a tool, I have started with an abrasive blade on a grinder to cut off the chunks I don't want, and then take it to a 1 1/2 hp Jet grinder with a 36 grit belt, then to my standard grinders. As for the Tormek, the only turning tool use it gets from me is the stropping wheel, which is essential for using a skew chisel. I guess I could set up my flat work tools for touching up the primary bevel angles, but I ended up making a tool rest for one of my grinders that is locked into 25 degrees. The 1/2 hp Rikon is considerably under powered as far as I am concerned. As for the Tormek jigs, I know several people have used the jigs on standard grinders, but you may have to go some creative work to get them set up. I didn't like the sharpening wheel that came with my Tormek, it wore away too fast. The diamond are far better, though expensive. Not sure if the CBN wheels are better or not.

robo hippy

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I owned a Tormek for many years before I began using it just after I started turning. I bought Tormek diamond wheels after Tormek made them available. Just some background...

I sharpen my bowl gouges, scrapers, and detail spindle gouge on the Tormek with a 600 grit diamond wheel. The results are fantastic using the Tormek gouge jig. The bonus is that it takes 30-60 seconds to resharpen my gouges while I'm in the midst of turning since I leave the Tormek mostly set up for these gouges.

The only downside to the Tormek and 600 grit diamond wheel is that reshaping a tool is slow, slow, slow . . . Because of that, about a year ago I bought a Rikon slow speed grinder with a tool rest from Lee Valley Veritas. Now, when I want to reshape a tool, resharpen my scrapers while my Tormek is setup for gouges, or sharpen/reshape other tools like chisels, I use the Rikon with CBN wheels.

However, I got along just fine with only the Tormek for 4-5 years because I don't have a need to reshape a turning tool very often. I bought almost all of my HSS turning tools with the grind I wanted to use and, therefore, never really need to reshape those tools; just resharpen. So, I think it's possible to get along with just the Tormek, especially given that a slow speed grinder with CBN wheels and high quality tool rests it kind of expensive; maybe about $450 - $600.

Woodturners Wonders is a great online site to buy the grinder and CBN wheels if that is what you want to do. They will help you pick out the correct wheels if you describe what you want to do.

 

[William Leigher]

Glenn Lucas taught his kids to sharpen his tools on a Tormek, so you can do it, too. In fact, you might want to get his sharpening DVD, which includes the Tormek, and his Tormek settings chart. The chart is specific to his gouge grinds, but I believe information is available about how to adjust for different grinds.

In addition to Glenn Lucas, Nick Agar has several Tormek videos focused on woodturners. Also check out the Tormek YouTube channel that includes material by Lucas and Agar and where new content is added regularly.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Mostly it's all been said. I'll just add that with the Tormek the dust is in the water, not the air. It's tempting to dump that water down the drain, but I suggest you pour it onto the lawn, lest the dust settles out and silts up your pipes.

 

[Michael Murane]

Don't worry 'bout it, that's what everyone is here for, ask and learn. For me, I learn alot from reading on here. I still and will always be in learning mode, there is a lot of stuff to learn/enjoy.

Thanks John, I'm getting a lot of help here in the forums. Take it easy.

 

[Matt Fawkner]

I'm a new turner and purchased a nice Tormek - 8 system. Since I have little experience with sharpening tools I allowed my research on water sharpening vs. traditional grinding to sway me. I admit that the propaganda that the Tormek people put out probably swayed me more than it should. Anyway I now have this Tormek-8 outfit with the woodturning jigs. I have been reading folks back and forth about different grinders and have managed to get baffled about the whole process.

Use Tormek for everything:
1 shaping tools (old ones that need refurbishing- I have a bunch)
2 sharpening newly purchased tools - Is this necessary?)
3 routine sharping and honing tools as needed.

Add a slow/fast/both speed grinder to the mix?

Sorry for the newbie questions. Sometimes there too much information on this stuff.

Dear Michael,

Like you, I am new to turning. The majority of my tools are second hand. That includes a Tormek Super 2000, green in colour, which was a very early Tormek model. I am about to upgrade my Wheel to a DF-250 Diamond Wheel.
Are you familiar with the various Tormek wheels? The DF-250 is $580.00 (Australian Dollars). Can anyone give me their view of progressing with diamond wheels?
Cheers, Matt Fawkner

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I use a SuperGrind 2000. When Tormek began offering diamond wheels, I bought the 600 grit. Using the Tormek gouge jig, I can resharpen an exising gouge in 30-60 seconds, given that my Tormek is usually setup to do gouges and the jig is set for my preferred grind. It does a fantastic job; a very sharp edge. I don't hone or use a leather strop on the edge; just use it right off the wheel. I also purchased the 300 grit Tormek diamond whee, believing that I could use it to reshape turning tools. Reshaping to a different angle or shape is a very tedious, long job on the Tormek, even with the 300 grit diamond wheel. I ended up buying a Rikon slow spped grinder with CBN wheels for that. It's just a much easier and shorter job to reshape on this grinder, but I still use the Tormek for resharpening. It can't be beat.

I also sharpen my scrapers on the Tormek with the sharpening plate attachment. That also works well but is a bit more difficult since the wheel is rotating away from you and tends to pull the tool upward unless it is held in place very firmly.

So I'd recommend the Torme for resharpening but it isn't as desirable for reshaping.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

A couple days ago I saw a reel on instagram of Glenn Lucas sharpening a scraper using the platform with the support bar in the vertical position. In this position, the wheel was rotating toward the platform.

 

[RichColvin]

A couple days ago I saw a reel on instagram of Glenn Lucas sharpening a scraper using the platform with the support bar in the vertical position. In this position, the wheel was rotating toward the platform.

This is my preferred position for sharpening turning tools if they are HSS. For some of the old carbon steel tools, I prefer the horizontal position as it is a slower sharpen.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

This is my preferred position for sharpening turning tools if they are HSS. For some of the old carbon steel tools, I prefer the horizontal position as it is a slower sharpen.

I've tried this but, in the end, it's just as easier, maybe easier for me, to sharpen scrapers in the horizontal position. While I do need to more firmly hold the scraper so it doesn't lift up, it actually appears to provide a better burr, I think, because the wheel is pushing the metal upward. It seems to me that there is no method that is perfect. There is always some downside, as there is with most, if not all, tools I own for woodworking, turning or other, power or hand. So, I'm satisfied with the results and now, that I also have a slow speed grinder with CBN wheels, I sometimes sharpen my turning scrapers on that. It works just as well and I don't have to change the setup on the Tormek.

 

[RichColvin]

I forgot to mention about the burr. The late Dr. Vadim Kraichuk (of KnifeGrinders in Australia) published some research about knife sharpening and the burr raised when sharpening. Vadim compared the procedure for sharpening using edge-leading (vertical) vs. edge-following (horizontal). His testing showed that edge leading made a burr which gave a longer sharpness for the user.

This testing was for knives, and most probably for the butchers for whom he sharpened knives. But I believe the learnings apply to lathe tools also.

I can’t quickly find the research, but I do remember reading it.

————————————
Update: in his book, Knife Deburring book: Science behind the lasting razor edge, Vadim noted

In edge-leading grinding, burr formation is lower because the material is restricted to deform in the direction of the grinding force thanks to the body of the blade. However, grinding into the stone/wheel stresses metal more than away from the stone/wheel, and this stressed metal must be removed by subsequent edge-trailing honing (more on that later). On the other hand, edge-trailing grinding forms a higher burr that is more difficult to remove, because it is also more malleable.​

Adding,

Grinding against the wheel rotation goes faster and creates a shorter burr, therefore when we grind bevels and remove a lot of metal, we grind into the wheel. But we hone the edge with the wheel rotation, away from the edge, as this stresses the metal less and we get a sharper apex. So, when we have to remove lots of metal, grind into the edge, but when we work on the thin edge near the apex - hone away from the edge.​

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Guess whatever works the best for each of us is what we use. Burrs don’t last long anyway so maintaining them is the goal. Whatever you are comfortable with will encourage frequent sharpening.

 

[Jim McLain]

I forgot to mention about the burr. The late Dr. Vadim Kraichuk (of KnifeGrinders in Australia) published some research about knife sharpening and the burr raised when sharpening. Vadim compared the procedure for sharpening using edge-leading (vertical) vs. edge-following (horizontal). His testing showed that edge leading made a burr which gave a longer sharpness for the user.

This testing was for knives, and most probably for the butchers for whom he sharpened knives. But I believe the learnings apply to lathe tools also.

I can’t quickly find the research, but I do remember reading it.

————————————
Update: in his book, Knife Deburring book: Science behind the lasting razor edge, Vadim noted

In edge-leading grinding, burr formation is lower because the material is restricted to deform in the direction of the grinding force thanks to the body of the blade. However, grinding into the stone/wheel stresses metal more than away from the stone/wheel, and this stressed metal must be removed by subsequent edge-trailing honing (more on that later). On the other hand, edge-trailing grinding forms a higher burr that is more difficult to remove, because it is also more malleable.​

Adding,

Grinding against the wheel rotation goes faster and creates a shorter burr, therefore when we grind bevels and remove a lot of metal, we grind into the wheel. But we hone the edge with the wheel rotation, away from the edge, as this stresses the metal less and we get a sharper apex. So, when we have to remove lots of metal, grind into the edge, but when we work on the thin edge near the apex - hone away from the edge.​

Rich - This is very interesting. I have been sharpening my negative rake scrapers using the BoxMaster/DWay method for some time now and alway thought I got a better burr sharpening the primary bevel upside down on my standard low speed grinder.

 

[robo hippy]

I think Jimmy Clewes is a fan of sharpening his scrapers up side down. He says that you get a sharper burr. I don't really know. I tried it a few times, and it didn't seem to be any better. One thing for sure, the burr was much weaker than the right side up burr.

Funny thing about kitchen knives, some say to sharpen only pushing into the cutting edge, some say sharpen only pulling away from the cutting edge. Some use both. I don't know. One common point is that the burr has to be removed for good cutting. The burr has no real strength to it and easily folds over. While turning tools are generally not any harder than kitchen knives, some times we need the burrs, some times we don't want them on, some times we burnish the burr on.

robo hippy

 

[RichColvin]

I think Jimmy Clewes is a fan of sharpening his scrapers up side down. He says that you get a sharper burr. I don't really know. I tried it a few times, and it didn't seem to be any better. One thing for sure, the burr was much weaker than the right side up burr.

Funny thing about kitchen knives, some say to sharpen only pushing into the cutting edge, some say sharpen only pulling away from the cutting edge. Some use both. I don't know. One common point is that the burr has to be removed for good cutting. The burr has no real strength to it and easily folds over. While turning tools are generally not any harder than kitchen knives, some times we need the burrs, some times we don't want them on, some times we burnish the burr on.

robo hippy

Vadim did some research on that, and posted the effects of not honing the burr off. The scanning electron microscope images are amazing. https://sharpeninghandbook.info/GT-Knives-Ripped-Burr.html

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Vadim did some research on that, and posted the effects of not honing the burr off. The scanning electron microscope images are amazing. https://sharpeninghandbook.info/GT-Knives-Ripped-Burr.html

Interesting, and while I agree with the analysis, any micrograph without scale bars drives me crazy. It is clear that post-slicing image is at a different resolution,

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Vadim compared the procedure for sharpening using edge-leading (vertical) vs. edge-following (horizontal). His testing showed that edge leading made a burr which gave a longer sharpness for the user.

I'm confused, does "edge-leading" mean the stone is rotating towards the edge, or away from it?
And does "a burr" with "longer sharpness" mean a longer lasting scraper burr? Or does this refer to a gouge that stays sharp longer?

 

[RichColvin]

Mark,

Good questions.

Edge-leading means the stone is rotating towards the end of the sharpened edge. The discussion I raised on the burr is the one raised when sharpening, and which needs to be honed off.

The whole idea is how to sharpen as efficiently as possible, and retain the sharpness at a usable level as long as possible.

Rich