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Tradesman DC Grinder

Looks like a very well made beautiful machine, but the the price ... :eek: :rolleyes:

One of the things that I like about my Tormek is the water bath. There's no metal or abrasive dust floating around in the air. When I got a CBN wheel for my Tormek I used it dry for a bit, but even at 90 RPM fine metal dust gets scattered everywhere as well as sticking to the tool. After that bit of messy introduction I started running the CBN wheel in water and have been much happier. So, my thought is for about half the cost I would have a machine that works just as well and with far less mess.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Looks like a very well made beautiful machine, but the the price ... :eek: :rolleyes:

One of the things that I like about my Tormek is the water bath. There's no metal or abrasive dust floating around in the air. When I got a CBN wheel for my Tormek I used it dry for a bit, but even at 90 RPM fine metal dust gets scattered everywhere as well as sticking to the tool. After that bit of messy introduction I started running the CBN wheel in water and have been much happier. So, my thought is for about half the cost I would have a machine that works just as well and with far less mess.
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I've thought about the half-the-price factor, Bill. They have a new add-on (more money...) to pop a belt on for very fine sharpening and honing.

One of the main reasons I haven't bought a Tormek is because my shop is potentially below freezing for half of the year. With any luck, I'll upgrade the shop in the next couple years!
 
Dwight R Rutherford said:
Bill, what grit wheel are you using on your Tormek?
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1000 grit. I wanted 1200, but Ken wanted to sell me 600 so we compromised at 1000. I think that I would have preferred 1200, but the wheel I have is still wearing in. Initially, the edge was way too coarse, but the wheel was shedding a lot of excess CBN crystals. It's much better now, but not as smooth as the Tormek wheel. I definitely do like it for sharpening skew chisels. On the Tormek wheel, sharpening a skew was worse than watching paint dry. With the CBN wheel, it's a pretty quick job. I don't let the CBN wheel sit in water overnight. I bought a bottle of Bora Honerite Gold water additive, but I haven't used it yet.
 
I looked at them and drooled but at that price that's all I can do. I've done an awful lot of sharpening for the last 12 years or more with my el cheap Woodcraft grinder. Just got a new 360 CBN wheel from Ken and really like it. So probably won't change grinders any time soon.
 
When I talked to them at the Kansas City Symposium it sounded like they sell their products primarily to the machine tool trades. Very well made equipment but probably at the wrong price point for woodturners.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Looks like a very well made beautiful machine, but the the price ... :eek: :rolleyes:

One of the things that I like about my Tormek is the water bath. There's no metal or abrasive dust floating around in the air. When I got a CBN wheel for my Tormek I used it dry for a bit, but even at 90 RPM fine metal dust gets scattered everywhere as well as sticking to the tool. After that bit of messy introduction I started running the CBN wheel in water and have been much happier. So, my thought is for about half the cost I would have a machine that works just as well and with far less mess.
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Good thoughts....especially metal dust in the air. Curious, why not leave the cbn wheel in the water overnight? Net thought, is the diamond wheel better for the tormek than the cbn?
 
The tooling industry was their main market till we woodturners started using CBN wheels. Very well made tools for very precise sharpening.

If you all didn't know, Tormek will be having diamond wheels out on the market, supposedly by June. I contacted them to see if I could get one for the Symposium in Portland. 600, 1000, and 1200 I think. According to Glenn Lucas, diamond is almost twice as hard as CBN. With his CBN wheels, he finds them good homes after a year. With the diamond one he has been using, he says that after a year, they cut as well as they ever did... At the ultra slow speeds of the Tormek, and the Tradesman, diamond is usable without the diamond breaking down. Glenn uses some product, Honerite gold, in a water bath as a rust inhibitor. He uses the 600 grit wheel. Now, all I have to do is figure out how to make a robo rest for the Tormek....

robo hippy
 
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While the Tormek may be slow enough, just as a reminder, diamond is not a good cutting material for steel at high speeds/high temperatures, see J. Wilks "Performance of Diamond as Cutting Tools for Precision Machining", Prec. Eng. 2(2) p57-72 (1980).

I quote from the paper: "The wear of diamond on mild steel is four orders of magnitude greater than when turning brass." (4 orders of magnitude = 10,000x more wear). At least in the machining industry (and precision bearing manufacturing), a lot of the research in the use of diamond as a cutting tool or as an abrasive has left the diamond as unsuitable for production of ferrous or titanium parts.
 
As a really old water treatment chemist I always am interested in chemicals sold at retail as corrosion or scale inhibitors. I looked at the MSDS for Bora Honerite Gold water additive and was surprised that it contained nothing that would justify the $22.95 price tag.

The active ingredients PBTC and Sodium Polyacrylate are scale inhibitors/dispersants. The have virtually no corrosion inhibition properties.
The other active ingredient is Benzotriazole which is a good copper corrosion inhibitor, but has limited activity for corrosion inhibition on ferrous metals or aluminium.

If you really want a corrosion inhibitor for CBN wheels, I would recommend Automotive Antifreeze. These products have inhibitor packages designed to protect Copper, Aluminum, and Ferrous metals. They normally contain Benzotriazole or Tolyltriazole for copper, Silicates for aluminum and Nitrites for iron. They cost a lot less than HoneRite and will do a better job.
 
Hy Tran said:
While the Tormek may be slow enough, just as a reminder, diamond is not a good cutting material for steel at high speeds/high temperatures, see J. Wilks "Performance of Diamond as Cutting Tools for Precision Machining", Prec. Eng. 2(2) p57-72 (1980).

I quote from the paper: "The wear of diamond on mild steel is four orders of magnitude greater than when turning brass." (4 orders of magnitude = 10,000x more wear). At least in the machining industry (and precision bearing manufacturing), a lot of the research in the use of diamond as a cutting tool or as an abrasive has left the diamond as unsuitable for production of ferrous or titanium parts.
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Tormek advertises the diamond wheels mainly for sharpening kitchen knives which are almost always stainless steel. I believe that I saw the paper that you referenced, but high speed/high temperature dry grinding is sufficiently different from slow speed, low grinding pressure, and water bath that I don't think we can say there is any correlation.

Paul Gilbert said:
As a really old water treatment chemist I always am interested in chemicals sold at retail as corrosion or scale inhibitors. I looked at the MSDS for Bora Honerite Gold water additive and was surprised that it contained nothing that would justify the $22.95 price tag.

The active ingredients PBTC and Sodium Polyacrylate are scale inhibitors/dispersants. The have virtually no corrosion inhibition properties.
The other active ingredient is Benzotriazole which is a good copper corrosion inhibitor, but has limited activity for corrosion inhibition on ferrous metals or aluminium.

If you really want a corrosion inhibitor for CBN wheels, I would recommend Automotive Antifreeze. These products have inhibitor packages designed to protect Copper, Aluminum, and Ferrous metals. They normally contain Benzotriazole or Tolyltriazole for copper, Silicates for aluminum and Nitrites for iron. They cost a lot less than HoneRite and will do a better job.
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I agree 100% with what you say. I first heard about Bora HoneRite on the Tormek forum and thought it was nonsense, but bought it on a whim when I saw it on a shelf at Rockler's. The fact that I've had it for several months and still haven't used it shows my level of enthusiasm. I feel silly for buying it, but curiosity and impulse shopping got the best of me.

I appreciate your tip about antifreeze. Since it is poisonous to cats and dogs I am hesitant to use it.

Ken Rizza is adamant about not using the CBN wheel in water, but he doesn't say why. I have used plain water and just to be safe I don't leave it sitting in water. I remove the wheel and pat it dry with a towel. My concern about leaving the wheel in water is that I don't know if the plating that binds the CBN crystals to the wheel might corrode.
 
Ken told us when he was a guest at our woodturning club meeting that water was not a good idea because of the particles that may be trapped in the wheel during sharpening and then you would have rusting leading to other issues--I don't definitely remember the other issues but I think they may have included cbn particles letting loose of the wheel.
Oh and for the record LOTS of chef knives are made of high carbon steels--some chefs will have nothing else!

And to the OP, I have seen these grinders before, and there is no way they are cost justified by quality of components, features or other physical qualities--I think they are an example of a tool made for sale in an industrial environment that doesn't worry so much about cost of tooling.
 
"Ken told us when he was a guest at our woodturning club meeting that water was not a good idea because of the particles that may be trapped in the wheel during sharpening and then you would have rusting leading to other issues"

This would explain the use of PBTC in HoneRite. PBTC can function as a chelant for iron in the ferrous (+2) state. That would prevent it from being embedded in CBN plated matrex and then going to the ferric (+3) state (red oxide) and possibly setting up a dimetalic couple.

Bill ---
The rap about antifreeze being toxic to small animals is from when antifreeze was based on ethylene glycol. Most of the current antifreezes use propylene glycol which is not toxic to small animals. Read the label to be sure which one you are buying.
 
Zach LaPerriere said:
One of the main reasons I haven't bought a Tormek is because my shop is potentially below freezing for half of the year.
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Lathe accessories.jpg
Zach......Just an idea here for you......At one time, my shop was in a very large building 30x80, and I couldn't afford to heat it 24/7. I had this grinder in that shop, and what I did was wrap the water bath in heat tape. I'm sure you're familiar with this method of keeping pipes from freezing. It works just as well for this improvised purpose, and the automatic thermostat only supplies heat when it's needed.....:D

-----odie-----
 
odie said:
View attachment 25280
Zach......Just an idea here for you......At one time, my shop was in a very large building 30x80, and I couldn't afford to heat it 24/7. I had this grinder in that shop, and what I did was wrap the water bath in heat tape. I'm sure you're familiar with this method of keeping pipes from freezing. It works just as well for this improvised purpose, and the automatic thermostat only supplies heat when it's needed.....:D

-----odie-----
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Thanks Odie. Much appreciated. That crossed my mind to put a heat tape on it. I'm a bit paranoid that I'd forget it with a bunch of shavings around and then burn my shop and house down. I'm sure it would have been just fine.

On the other hand, if I don't consider the money, I'm intrigued by the newest rendition of the DC Grinder. I'm also curious what a variable speed grinder with amazing bearings can do for grinding ultra sharp. Maybe a dry Tormek wheel is the best best for the money? I'm still trying to evaluate the Tradesman. I talked with one fellow in Ontario who said he'd never go back, the difference is more than worth the expense.

The belt goes right over the fine CBN wheel when wanted, so you can either put a very course belt on and hog steel like a madman, or put a fine belt on. Not sure yet if my credit card feels like getting beat-up!

Here's the belt attachment.

T8 Belt Tradesman 8 Belt.jpg
 
odie said:
View attachment 25280
Zach......Just an idea here for you......At one time, my shop was in a very large building 30x80, and I couldn't afford to heat it 24/7. I had this grinder in that shop, and what I did was wrap the water bath in heat tape. I'm sure you're familiar with this method of keeping pipes from freezing. It works just as well for this improvised purpose, and the automatic thermostat only supplies heat when it's needed.....:D

-----odie-----
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I'm so lucky to live in Hawaii... Freezing temperatures in my shop is not one of my worries!
 
Zach LaPerriere said:
Thanks Odie. Much appreciated. That crossed my mind to put a heat tape on it. I'm a bit paranoid that I'd forget it with a bunch of shavings around and then burn my shop and house down. I'm sure it would have been just fine.
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Yeah......my experience with it, was it only got warm......never hot enough to burn anything. This is only a consideration if you take Bill's advice and look into the Tormek.

Another thing to think about, is it's been years since I did much "hogging" of metal off my lathe tools. Of course, yes, I did at one time, and when I do need to do this, I now use my old 6" grinder with a 36gt wheel. (The 6" grinder has become my all-purpose "standby", after I settled into an 8" grinder) When you find what grinds you want to stay with, you'll seldom need serious hogging capability......because, at that point, you're just truing up existing grinds. :D

If you do go the Tradesman route......I'm very interested in hearing your impressions, though.....:)

-----odie-----
 
odie said:
Another thing to think about, is it's been years since I did much "hogging" of metal off my lathe tools. Of course, yes, I did at one time, and when I do need to do this, I now use my old 6" grinder with a 36gt wheel. (The 6" grinder has become my all-purpose "standby", after I settled into an 8" grinder) When you find what grinds you want to stay with, you'll seldom need serious hogging capability......because, at that point, you're just truing up existing grinds. :D
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That's a good point...except for oddballs like me. Because I sharpen much sharper than any other turner I know, I rarely have a primary bevel more than a 1/16". So when I sharpen 5 or 10 gouges at a time, I like to remove the secondary and tertiary bevels FAST. A 60 grit CBN has proven too slow for my patience level. But a 60 grit belt is crazy fast, and the steel stays cool. Or your 36 grit wheel. Dang it's satisfying to watch that steel disappear!
 
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I am a knifemaker and I have two serious 2x72 belt grinders--I don't know why we knife folks call them grinders they are just variable speed bet sanders--often with various attachments-like a small wheel attachment (great for sanding in small contours) and depending on what belt you choose you can make a piece of steel as sharp as possible to make it. I fell in love with the A-6 Triact belts from 3M and you can put a mirror edge on your tools--knives with them-so If a belt sander is interesting to you, I would look at a 2x72 machine and get a 1HP Rikon and CBN wheels from Ken, this would give you much more versatility and not be that much more $ than the tradesman stuff. Oregon Blade Maker and Ameribrade are both worth looking at you can get a Variable Speed for around 1200 with a VFD--which is what you really want--OBM has a storefront on e-bay and if you search Ameribrade they have a website. My starter sanding unit was an AMK-77 which came with a KBAC VFD and has a platen which flips to let you use an included contact wheel, and a decent tool rest.
then the Rikon is a slow speed grinder (1725 rpm) and the 1/2 hp works fine--but if I were buying again I would go with the 1 hp model.
 
Don C Davis said:
I am a knifemaker and I have two serious 2x72 belt grinders--I don't know why we knife folks call them grinders they are just variable speed bet sanders--often with various attachments-like a small wheel attachment (great for sanding in small contours) and depending on what belt you choose you can make a piece of steel as sharp as possible to make it. I fell in love with the A-6 Triact belts from 3M and you can put a mirror edge on your tools--knives with them-so If a belt sander is interesting to you, I would look at a 2x72 machine and get a 1HP Rikon and CBN wheels from Ken, this would give you much more versatility and not be that much more $ than the tradesman stuff. Oregon Blade Maker and Ameribrade are both worth looking at you can get a Variable Speed for around 1200 with a VFD--which is what you really want--OBM has a storefront on e-bay and if you search Ameribrade they have a website. My starter sanding unit was an AMK-77 which came with a KBAC VFD and has a platen which flips to let you use an included contact wheel, and a decent tool rest.
then the Rikon is a slow speed grinder (1725 rpm) and the 1/2 hp works fine--but if I were buying again I would go with the 1 hp model.
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Thanks so much Don. I will check into those two models. It sounds like I need to make a date with Youtube or find a good knife making resource.

Can I ask where you get your A-6 belts?
 
Zach I usually buy my belts from Supergrit or on Amazon and occasionally find a good deal on them on e-bay I’m not real loyal on abrasives in general—but I do buy a lot from Tru-Grit and Supergrit—probably prefer Tru-Grit as a supplier. Trizact is awesome!!!
 
Many bench grinders are not designed off the shelf to accept the “Precision” that is required of installing and operating a CBN wheel. Their tolerances were designed for stone wheels which can be trued up and corrected if the stone grinding wheel is out of balance exhibits run out. I bought CBN wheels from Ken a few years ago and could never get them running true enough to my satisfaction. His CBN wheels were machined perfectly. We tried spherical washers, machined flat washers and shimming but I could not get my old reliant 8” 1725rpm grinder run true. He tried to help in everyway so no complaint there. His final recommendation was to get a new grinder. For the record, the 1/2 shaft was not consistently 1/2 all the way. The threads where the nut goes we’re worn down and much less than 1/2” and the shaft shoulder was not deep enough to easily setup at 90 degrees. It was a lot of work and expense trying to implement CBN on my grinder. I had a lot invested in that grinder and it’s footprint with my custom modular jigs for original beta wolverine, Tormek and Others. I opted out of CBN instead of starting over with a new grinder etc.

So my advise to all is not to just jump in as I did. Talk to Ken or Dave to make sure that your particular grinder can adapt to their wheels. Mine would have eventually if I wanted a machinist to create a custom tapered flanged bushing and have the custom 1/2 bore of Kens CBN wheel re drilled to a larger size to accept the custom bushing. I am most likely an exception to the rule. Most people with CBN wheels are happy with them.


I guess trying to true up a CBN wheel is off topic. However I would like to hear from everybody on what grinders they own and if they would share on how did they resolved any CBN-grinder run out problems and how much run out is acceptable before it impacts the quality of the grind.

What is on topic and back to topic is that the Tradesmen may be the only grinder that CBN runs 100% true out of the box. I’ve sharpened with the tradesman at a friends shop. It’s wonderful!
CBN and the flexibility of a belt sander Would cover all my sharpening needs.

Also, I’d like to mention that I recently purchased the black Tormek wheel and axel upgrade and that ran out of the box without runout as well.
 
I just got a new CBN wheel from Ken Rizza and got the spherical washers with it. It runs perfectly true on my Woodcraft grinder. However as I was installing it the nut came loose on the other side which has my White Aluminum Oxide wheel. I had spent a lot of time getting it to run true. It now wobbles. I spent a pretty fair amount of time and still didn't get it running true. So even though my CBN runs true there is now vibration from the AO wheel not running perfect. Doesn't seem to hurt the grind at all it's just irritating. Guess I should have bought a CBN for the other side also but I sharpen a lot of High Carbon steel tools on the AO so don't want to get rid of it yet.
 
John, did you try rotating the old wheel 90 or 180 degrees? some times that helps. The white AlO wheels that came with my 1 hp Rikon were so bad, I wouldn't give them to some one I didn't like...

robo hippy
 
Dennis Weiner said:
Leo, are you saying to load Tormek bath with a lubricant of some kind in lieu of water while using CBN? Interesting!
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What I’m saying is that water is not a good fluid to use with CBM crystal grinding wheels.

The above is especially important with high speed grinding where high temperatures are developed, low speed Tormek would probably never produce the high temps, but the water will still oxidize the CBM crystal, albeit at much lower rates, dry use of the CBM at low speeds or with an oil would be better IMO, just don’t use water or water based cooling at high speeds and temps.
 
Okay Leo, good write up. That should go in the AAW magazine... So, now I am wondering how this would apply to diamond wheels. Does diamond oxidize like CBN? I know diamond doesn't like heat... I do like some light oil/Trend Lapping fluid on the bevels of my tools on the standard slow speed grinder. It does keep a little of the dust out of the air,

robo hippy
 
The extreme conditions that cause oxidation of cubic boron nitride in superheated steam along with high pressure and high speed grinding doesn't imply anything about room temperature effects.

I would be more concerned about what happens to the wheel.
 
Not sure how this applies........water based coolants are used with CBN cutting tools in "hard turning" metal lathes.

Hard turning usually refers to lathe turning of hardened metals like bearing steels, etc that in the past would have been ground.
 
robo hippy said:
Okay Leo, good write up. That should go in the AAW magazine... So, now I am wondering how this would apply to diamond wheels. Does diamond oxidize like CBN? I know diamond doesn't like heat... I do like some light oil/Trend Lapping fluid on the bevels of my tools on the standard slow speed grinder. It does keep a little of the dust out of the air,

robo hippy
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Reed here’s some info on Diamond grinding and what to expect using it on turning tools.

Diamond grinding wheels.jpg

Diamond in grinding.jpg
 
That's interesting information, Leo, but it applies to industrial grinding conditions and not to the the kind of hand sharpening that woodturners do.where the cutting edge barely gets warm on a bench grinder. On a water cooled sharpening machine such as the Tormek the edge never even gets warm. Here's what you would expect to see at the temperatures mentioned in the paper that you cited:
  • 600°C = 1112°F, steel glows dark cherry
  • 700°C = 1292°F, steel glows medium cherry
  • 800°C = 1472°F, steel glows bright cherry
On a bench grinder there's no need to go to the extra expense of diamond when CBN costs much less and probably lasts just as long.
 
As Bill says, "700°C = 1292°F, steel glows medium cherry".

I've had an expensive composite diamond wheel for years that's used to reshape brazed carbide tools for the metal lathe. There's no way you can grind the carbide without also grinding the underlying steel shank. I've always tried to rough grind the steel portion on a grey wheel, but ultimately for the final grind the diamond wheel has to grind the steel. No apparent damage to the diamond wheel, probably because the steel never reaches the critical temperature.
 
Hmm, I will have to ponder this one for a while. I would think it would be difficult to get diamond that hot for grinding HSS unless you were really pushing too hard, or your wheel was loaded up. I would guess that if you approached those temperatures, it would cause some degrading of the diamond. Even used dry, at slower than the 1700 rpm of most slow speed grinders, I would think they could work. I do remember Glenn saying that diamond was almost twice as hard as boron... I also wonder what the cost difference actually is. Woodcraft had a diamond composite (diamond in a matrix, about 3/16 thick, bonded to an aluminum hub) wheel that they sold for a bit before the CBN wheels came out. I don't think I even looked at the price. Industrial grade diamond should be a lot cheaper than jewelry grade diamond...

As for alternative materials to grind on the wheels, my Big Ugly tool is tantung on top and cold rolled or plate stock on the bottom. I grind off most of the softer steel on the bottom, but still have virtually no problem with them loading up...

robo hippy
 
Guys, to get steel to those temps it requires at least 15-20 minutes in a forge--designed for heating metal--this a propane forge under fairly high pressure--so sharpening tools you aren't going to get to those temps--when was the last time one of you saw your tool tip glowing red?? Seriously.....
 
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