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Turning Christmas trees--chip out issues on chestnut

Joined
Jun 24, 2015
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Maine
Making some crazy conifers for Christmas gifts. Turned several out of dry soft maple without issue. I have a couple chunks of chestnut from a neighbor's tree that was taken down this summer, decided to make a set for them from their own tree. Hopefuly the pics are clear enough to see the comparison--the maple looks great, the chestnut not so much.

Varied the lathe speed from 1500ish to 2000ish. Used 2 different spindle gouges ground at 40*, same tools I used on the maple. Both freshly sharpened.

Wondering if the issue is the turner or the wood? The chestnut is pretty wet but wasn't slinging water when I turned it round yesterday. I thought wet wood would be the ticket for making these but maybe not?

Appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks, Gary
 

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To prevent the chip out I believe you should approach the "concern area" with a (negative angle) (less than 90 degrees) with say a NRS versus trying to cut the wood with a gouge , which is obviously to aggressive and the support for the wood is too weak.
I get alot of chip out on Wenge wood as well and that is how I approach it.
D-Way makes some fantastic negative rake tools.
My 2 cents worth of advise.
Wet wood is weak. Especially a thin edge. The problem might be with the weak wood and the 40 degree grind. A spindle gouge ground at 25 to 30 degrees and used just like you would cut a pommel on spindles should work well. Remember Robo Hippies mantra: The bevel should touch the wood but the wood shouldn't know it.
 
I have no idea how you can get that kind of tear out if you start at the outside and cut down to the valley. You are using the gouge for a shearing cut, right? Even the end grain down the angle is fuzzy, implying you are not rubbing the bevel, or using the gouge like a scraper. 40 degree is more of a bowl angle, not a spindle gouge grind. Are you using a bowl gouge to spindle turn?
 
I gotta agree with Richard above - I think it may not be so much the turner or the wood, but sharpness of the tool. (and the bevel angle could do with being lower - 30 to 35 degree) a nice sharp tool should be able to cut nice sharp cornered edges , whether wood is wet or dry , floating the bevel along behind it so from the looks of your results, I'd have to say your gouges ain't sharp - I used to get the same results when turning spin tops on my lathe before I got wise and sharpened and honed my gouge before doing the final 2-3 cuts - So yeah I'd say sharpening would solve most of the issue... (the results of your maple version seem to say "sharpen that gouge" as well, IMHO...)
 
I've turned a fair amount of christmas trees over the last few years. This always happens when my tools are not sharp enough. I've had this kind of chipout on a variety of woods I've used to turn christmas trees, and I do think it is primarily due to the sharpness of the tool. I use a 600 grit CBN wheel, so the edge is not just sharp, but fine and smooth. When the tool is very sharp, I haven't had issues. I have two spindle gouges I use most, a standard with a 45º angle and a detail with a 35º angle. I also have a detail gouge from Crown that I think is an even shallower angle, if I really need to get into some tight spaces.
 
Chinese chestnut? (American chestnut is getting hard to find - my supply dwindles.)

I haven't seen that much chipping an edge. Is there pressure from the spindle gouge bevel on the wood? I'd have to measure my spindle gouges but I'm guessing the angle is less than 40 but never measured, I could check tomorrow.
Also, has the heel of the gouge bevel been removed/beveled/rounded? If not, could the heel be pushing against the thin edge?

I to would check the sharpness. I'm very particular about my spindle gouges, sharpen with a 1200 grit CBN on a Tormek, strop away the burr with polishing compound on a hard leather Tormek wheel. The finial edge has a near mirror polish and easily shaves hair from my arm.

Another thing might be apply something to the edge to make it stronger - sander sealer, CA? I've stabilized large areas of wood that would otherwise come apart (in a couple of cases the wood was quite punky) by basically applying as much CA as it would take, let cure (no accelerator), turn. To minimize CA staining, I first wipe CA onto the surface, then apply to the problem areas. I like the Parfix 3408 since it doesn't make noxious fumes, cures slowly without creating heat. (Water in wet wood can accelerate curing, sometimes too much.)

If you think the moisture in the wood is contributing to the edge problem, maybe try to microwave dry a piece. I haven't used that in years but some do - heat a short time, wait for moisture to evaporate and the wood cool, repeat and repeat.

Too deep a cut per pass?

BTW, I usually turn spindly things at high speed.
 
How are you cutting? Are you cutting into the outer edge of each tier of branches? Or are you cutting another way? I tend to cut into the edge, and I winder if the way you are cutting might be a factor here as well.

I try not to actually "ride" the bevel, per-se, and "float" the bevel instead. Its there for support, but there shouldn't be a lot of pressure on the bevel. To John's note, I always take off the heel of my bevels as well...
 
Lots to digest here, thank you all for your thoughts. I'm definitely using spindle gouges, not bowl gouges. They are sharpened on 220 grit CBN wheel. I do have a 600 grit wheel which I'll mount and give it a try. The heels are relieved on both gouges. Both of the gouges are 1/2"--a Thompson and a Woodcraft. I've been thinking a 3/8" would be a good addition to the herd so will stop at Rockler on my way to our club meeting tomorrow. I'll talk with the guys at the meeting about the chip out and "float the bevel" --I'm not familiar with this technique. Will also dry a blank or two in the microwave.

Thanks again, will report with results----

Gary
 
I have turned a bunch of little Christmas tree ornaments this season: a dozen or so in cherry gave me no issues, but I ran out and started using soft, chippy sapele (from the cutoff bin at Woodcraft for us cheapos). I got some chip-out early in the run, but I (mostly) cured it wit a little 1/4" spindle-gouge, ground shallow at about 30 degrees in sort of Mark Sillay profile, and freshened up on the 180 CBN. Turning ornaments is great spindle gouge practice, and the trees along with my snowmen have been real popular at fall shows.
 
This is one of those things that makes me want to get in the car and come visit! Maybe get one of the club members to look at your tools and technique, maybe even visit your shop and watch. There are so many "little" things to consider.

I'll talk with the guys at the meeting about the chip out and "float the bevel"

I think the terms "float the bevel" and other variations all describe the same thing: the clearance angle. The sharp edge cuts into the wood at an angle and the angle and depth of the cut are what provide that very tiny but absolutely necessary support to the edge - it's a delicate balance between too little and too much. Sometimes the term "riding the bevel" or something similar is used, but fact is if the bevel is riding nicely against the wood the edge is not cutting. There needs to be a tiny clearance angle for the cut to happen - I'm sure that's what people mean by "riding" but occasionally someone doesn't quite understand what's going on. The C in the ABCs of turning (Anchor, Bevel, Cut) depends on the clearance angle.

I think Mike Darlow explains this best in his book "Fundamentals of Woodturning". Some say his books are too "technical" but I read every word then started over and read it all again and again. He has some wonderful diagrams and incredible photos illustrating the principles. I stole, er, borrowed just one photo from the book, this one showing a peeling cut - about as simple as it gets. The photo shows well the clearance angle needed for a perfect cut for that tool grind. Other photos in hte book show exactly what happens with the clearance angle is too small or too large. (Zero degrees, 2-deg, 12-deg, and 23-degrees.)

The photo is of a peeling cut with a skew ground straight across but the principle is the same for all cutting tools, even the complex curves of spindle or bowl gouge. The geometry for scraping is different, but also covered.

1762286504021.jpeg
[Figure 4.2 from Mike Darlow's "Fundamentals of Woodturning]

His diagrams explain the angles in far more detail and include things like the supporting force, severance force, shaving force, toolrest force, shaving friction, elastic recovery, plastic deformation and far more. Someone with a bit of physics background may get more out of it than some others. The biggest practical thing is the clearance angle.

But anyone who reads can't help but learning a LOT from Darlow, and for me, all of it helped. He starts with spindle turning as do many of the better teachers, but covers boxes, bowls, hollow forms and more. I can't begin to get across how valuable this book was to me.

I like his philosophy too, evident in the statement "...resist short-cutting to the ... glamour of the so-called advanced techniques", followed by a short list of the seriously counterproductive problems this can cause. We are all tempted, but at what cost... If I were king that one section alone would be required reading for every woodturner!

He has a series of exercises using various tools - even a rank beginner who does all those will morph into an expert turner, ready to teach others. I think Darlow's instruction and illustrations on cutting coves with a gouge are worth the cost of the book! (If you have or get the book check out Figure 6.77)

I basically learned woodturning from that book and "Turning Wood" by Richard Raffan. I keep multiple copies of both books, sometimes find them used, and loan them to students who show that certain "spark."

(Sorry, I'm a certified book freak. I think my little shop library has every book both authors wrote plus dozens from other authors. I also learned a lot from Keith Rowley's book "Woodturning: A Foundation Course". Rowley and others point out that if you learn spindle turning first, it will teach the fine tool control that will let you turn anything, including big bowls. He states the converse is not necessarily true. One more book I recommend to everyone is "Understanding Wood: A Craftsman Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley, another one I keep several copies of.)

JKJ
 
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