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Turning Drums- Cutting tools and Cuts- Suggestions?

mrGeeze

mrGeeze

Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
55
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8
Location
Hatteras Island NC
Working through the process of making stave drums.
Have the blanks glued up and mounted.

I am a bowlturner, not a spindle turner. I like a bowl gouge and a scraper.
But It seems like turning drums is a lot more like spindle work than facework.

Here's where I'm at/

On the outside face:
I've tried a few carbide tools (flat and oval cutters) with mixed success.
Lots of tear out.
I've tried a bowl gouge. lots of tearout.
Recently I used a shear scrape cut (a la Bill Grumbine) with my tool handle low and that gave the best finish so far.
It works but its not optimum for removing a lot of wood

I was thinking - "Its a spindle, use a skew perhaps?
A spindle gouge?. I don't even know how to sharpen a spindle gouge.
Perhaps A roughing gouge first, then the shear scrape mentioned above.

Perhaps the tool rest needs to be higher than that for bowl turning.

The inside is still a work in progress.
I've had some success with a bowl gouge on a scraping cut with both wings resting on the wood.
We've also tried the Carter hollowing tool but that was a pretty lousy quality of cut.
The inside of the drums have to be a pretty decent quality finish.

I hate sanding so the better I get the finish from the tool, the happier I will be

THere's got to be some bettwer ways.
Any ideas or suggestions from stave/drum turners.

Thanks,
 
What sort of size drum are you turning? I have not turned a drum, but I would guess that a sharp spindle roughing gouge might be the ideal tool. Followed by sheer scraping. Pics would be helpful (really I just want to see your project :D )
 
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mrGeeze said:
was thinking - "Its a spindle, use a skew perhaps?
A spindle gouge?. I don't even know how to sharpen a spindle gouge.
Perhaps A roughing gouge first, then the shear scrape mentioned above.
Click to expand...
a skew on the interrupted surface is difficult to control without a lot of experience.

I would use a 1.25” or larger continental spindle gouge. i would make the roughing cuts starting near an end and cutting toward the end.
each cut I move back an inch onto the rough and cut towards the smooth.
when I get near the end cot toward that end starting at the end.
SRG can be used too. Cut toward the ends.

my second choice would be an Ellsworth ground bowl gouge.
start at the tailstock end flute at 3 o’clock, handle toward the tailstock, bevel at 90 degrees to the ways. push straight in
work the length of the spindle in 1/2” increments.
the last inch st two cuts from the other end. Flute at 9 o’clock, handle toward the headstock.
then pull cuts with the handle way down to smooth the surface.

with spindle I never want to be scraping.

[edit] be sure to set the tool rest a bit above center or higher.
 
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I would use a spindle roughing gouge as a bevel rubbing tool and twistvtge handle so it cutting at a 45 degree angle. Should give you a very clean surface. For the inside use a Hunter Viceroy cupped carbide.
 
You're on the right track in considering that the grain orientation is different and so your tools and technique need to be different. As you are a beginner spindle turner, I have a few thoughts.

First, yes, you need to think differently about tool rest height, so good for you for recognizing that. With spindles, you want to be working on the top half of the wood. We normally start our students with the tool rest AT centerline, so that any edge they apply will be above centerline. Depending on your height and the lathe height, and your comfort, you may want to adjust from there as you get familiar.

Second, large spindles, such as you are turning, are especially challenging, and tool rest height might need to be even higher. Try to keep the tool rest real close to the wood.

Third, what wood are you using? Some woods are 'brittle' and will tear when you're taking the corners off. Some individual pieces of a normally cooperative wood will splinter and I'm not sure why. Alder and oak come to mind as more 'brittle' woods, at least in our climate.

This sounds like a terrific project, so please share some photos with us.
 
be sure to have the tool rest at or above center.

I’ve done a lot of full size bird houses from stave construction. A lot smaller that a drum 8-10 outside corner diameters.
stewart Batty has some nice videos on using the SRG.

large diameter play with the speed to get a nice feeling cut.

these gifs are from a demo video they will give you an idea of using the bowl gout and the SRG

the bowl gouge straight in cuts (cross cuts)
76D05A9C-5634-4D66-8E2B-DE280A6B5540.gif

The SRG cutting at the 45 degree angle and feathering the cut into the smoothed surface.
this starts after the Two bowl gouge cuts.
A80E00D0-9272-4FE7-A57D-EF4416381A62.gif
 
Well, you are turning spindle grain. Until it gets round, I would expect a shear type cut would work better than a peeling cut, using the wing to peel. Al's cut above is more of a peeling cut, I would have the gouge rolled onto the side. This would also be an excellent cut for a continental style roughing gouge, so more of a shear cut than a peeling cut. Once all of the high/low spots have been turned down, then it would make for a nice peeling cut. If I was to explain a peeling cut to a geometry student, I would say that the cutting edge contacts and cuts on a tangent. Many try to hold the tool more level rather than dropping the handle. If you ever get the chance, watch Eric Loffstrom and his peeling cuts with the skew. Strop off the burr on your skew. I don't think it would make much difference which end you start on since it is a glue up. With a log, it can make a difference.

robo hippy
 
The shear scrape (tool handle low on leg) cut with a bowl gouge does clean up the finish quite nicely. Its just a bit of a labor taking off material.
It's not a beginner cut either, so I'm hesitant to turn my drummer buddy loose with this technique.
WIth both wings on the piece (a scraper) it works well but it too is slow for removing material.
I'd be happy with a 2 stage/tool process if necessary. First cut it to round without a lot of tearout, then clean up the surface

One thing to remember is that you are cutting have staves. You have to knock both the glue line off of and round that edge where the staves meet.
Oddly this does feel different from merely rounding a spindle with a SRG or a skew.
These initial few cuts are where i have found the Bowl gouge to produce and inferior surface (lots of tearout and chipping).
The carbide cuttters weren't a great deal better. Lots of chatter, chipping and tearout

That's when I started thinking of spindle work
I did think of the skew. I have a big Alan Lacer Type skew.
Clearly above centerline would be the place to start
Also take a few trial runs on some pine glue ups rather than walnut, cherry, maple.

Perhaps the Spindle roughing gouge is worth a try?
Any quick videos on sharpening. I haven't used mine in a couple of years.
I have a Oneway sharpening Jig and Diamond wheels on my grider.
Can I just match the angle that exists on the tool and grind a bit away?


The comments are all appreciated. I know we will get there.
 
I'd approach it with either a Spindle Roughing Gouge or a larger continental Spindle gouge. Similar idea to Robo and Hockenbery above, angled to give a shear cut. I'm always impressed at just how good a cut one can get from a spindle roughing gouge particularly when the cutting edge is at about 45* to the wood.

A year or so ago I turned a series of staved vessels this way, up to about 8" in outer diameter. I chickened out of using the skew, as it felt like a long reach from the tool rest to where I wanted to cut. But the work went fast and cleanly with the SRG.
 
mrGeeze said:
Perhaps the Spindle roughing gouge is worth a try?
Any quick videos on sharpening. I haven't used mine in a couple of years.
I have a Oneway sharpening Jig and Diamond wheels on my grider.
Can I just match the angle that exists on the tool and grind a bit away?
Click to expand...
Personally, I would try a spindle rougher first, particularly if you're also teaching a beginner (drummer).

To sharpen one I think it's best to use a platform. Set the platform to match the existing bevel (or to whatever angle you desire). Position the the handle parallel to the grinding wheel and roll the tool on the platform to create the edge. If you're rusty, try the motion with the grinder off. Also, use a Sharpie to ink the bevel before you start. It will help you see what you're doing.
 
john lucas said:
I would use a spindle roughing gouge as a bevel rubbing tool and twistvtge handle so it cutting at a 45 degree angle. Should give you a very clean surface. For the inside use a Hunter Viceroy cupped carbide.
Click to expand...
On the outside:
SRG at 45 certainly should get it smooth. I'm on board
How about knocking all the glue and the hard edges (where staves meet). More like 90 degrees with the SRG and above center?

On the inside:
My buddy purchased the carter hollowing system.
Apparently he can put a Hunter cupped cutter on that jig. I think its the #2 cutter and the Viceroy I believe used the #1. Does it matter?
Would you use it for knocking off all glue off the inside and getting it round. That's a real ugly part of the job.


Aside:
I have not yet participated in the mitering/gluing up portion of this adventure.
I intend to shortly. My impression at this stage is there is entirely too much glue being used.
We will get there.
 
Outside, it's glue first and then wood. Inside, it's wood first, then glue later. The inside has some challenges to the process, but at least you won't be starting by cutting all that hard glue.

BTW, when the guys have mentioned a "shear cut" in prior messages, they don't mean a "shear scrape". What they mean is that the cutting edge is at a 45 degree angle to the centerline, the "shear angle". I don't think anyone suggested using a shear scrape in turning the glue up to a cylinder. As you said, it would take forever and isn't the appropriate technique for the early stage of the project.
 
Dean,
Understood. I'm familiar with a sheer cut with an SRG.
I've got a box of spindle billets that have sat around for a decade.
Very not round. Cut on a bandsaw by eye.
Good stuff for getting back in the spindle groove
Reckon I'll start first by working with them.

On the drum project.
Its glue first on the inside also. Sometimes gobs of it.
As I mentioned in the aside portion of my last post, me thinks there's a bit too much glue in this process.
Perhaps my buddy owns stock in Titebond.
But one thing at a time.

Truth is I'm not all that happy sticking a gouge on the inside of the drum.
If I can get the Carter/Hunter setup working for that I'll be happy.
 
Another option to quickly get a smooth outer surface on a glued stave form is to turn the piece by hand while having a router.
cut the outer surface to a smooth even surface. The router must be solidly held in position and the high-speed cutting tool does
all of the work while you slowly turn the piece by hand.
Another option is to mount the staves in a box with an open top with centers at both ends of the box, the router is positioned on top
of the box with the cutter engaging the staved work piece. You also turn the work piece slowly by hand and the high speed router
does all of the cutting.
 
If the glue leakage is that bad, try one of these handled wood scrapers to roughly get the worst of it off before trying to turn.
1675570610170.png
 
mrGeeze said:
Truth is I'm not all that happy sticking a gouge on the inside of the drum.
If I can get the Carter/Hunter setup working for that I'll be happy.
Click to expand...
A hollowing rig is a good idea. But Hunter style carbide cutters may or may not work well at the roughing stage with a lot of glue -- you'll have to experiment. My first inclination would be to use a round carbide scraper (e.g. Axe, Easy Wood) to get the inside to basic round.

Another idea entirely would be to knock off some of the glue, etc. with an oscillating spindle sander.
 
Mark Jundanian said:
A hollowing rig is a good idea. But Hunter style carbide cutters may or may not work well at the roughing stage with a lot of glue -- you'll have to experiment. My first inclination would be to use a round carbide scraper (e.g. Axe, Easy Wood) to get the inside to basic round.

Another idea entirely would be to knock off some of the glue, etc. with an oscillating spindle sander.
Click to expand...

Isn't the cutting edge of an EZ wood round carbide scraper functionally very similar to the cutting edge of the Hunter?

My buddy purchased the Carter system. I'm guessing he'd like to see it used rather than clutter up the attic.
I'm just wondering whether I should expect some improvement with the Hunter Cutter on vice the cutter Carter ships with it.
That may be work the $100 (approx) for it.

We're exploring the spindle sander route.
In many ways I think less glue would be a good start. But that's just me.
 
mrGeeze said:
Isn't the cutting edge of an EZ wood round carbide scraper functionally very similar to the cutting edge of the Hunter?
Click to expand...
The traditional replaceable carbides in an EZ Wood tool are scrapers, while all the Hunter carbide inserts are cutting tools. They have a very different design and use different techniques. EZ Wood tools has introduced newer inserts, for example a negative rake scraper insert, and it's possible they've also developed a cutting insert. If so, they would be very handicapped by the square bar of the tool, which would prevent finding the optimum angle of presentation for the particular cut you wanted to make.
 
mrGeeze said:
Isn't the cutting edge of an EZ wood round carbide scraper functionally very similar to the cutting edge of the Hunter?
Click to expand...
Nope, different animals entirely.
As Dean said the cup or pie pan shaped Hunter style inserts are designed to cut. They are presented at an angle to the wood surface. The flat topped single bevel* carbide inserts for Easy Wood Tools, and Carter's Axe, et.al. are scrapers that are presented to the wood surface flat and level (i.e. zero pitch and zero roll on the tool handle, so the square tool shaft is actually an advantage). The Hunters will deliver a smoother surface when properly used, but if it gives you trouble, then a carbide scraper may do better dealing with the hard glue lines, at least initially when the surface is grossly irregular. For rough turning the inside of the drum blank I would probably try a radiused square tool for starters, but a 16 mm round tool should work, too. I think it would be easier to orient the square tool's shaft parallel to the drum wall and make a gentle push or pull cut.

* and there are also, as Dean mentioned, double bevel or negative rake carbide scraper inserts. I find them less aggressive than single bevel tools, but they leave a surface that is smoother than the single bevels ( although still rougher than you can get with a Hunter or a bowl gouge).

There are probably lots of solutions to this problem. I vote for whatever works, especially if it's with the tools you have at hand.
 
There is a Hunter Cutter available for the Carter Hollowing Jig

Would you think the Hunter cutter would do a better job than the cutter the Carter comes with?
 
mrGeeze said:
There is a Hunter Cutter available for the Carter Hollowing Jig

Would you think the Hunter cutter would do a better job than the cutter the Carter comes with?
Click to expand...
Some of this stuff, you just have to try and see how it turns out in your hands. What appeals to you or works best for you, might be quite different for me, or Mark, or Mike, or Kirk. In fact, the four of us might all have different preferences for the task. And that's OK.
 
While I love the excuse to bring a new tool home (see recent post on McNaughton storage ;) ) this project sounds like something that traditional tools will solve nicely. We've talked about a bunch of options in this thread - I've not commented on he inside, and I could not find the information around the diameter you are working with, so I'll presume a bit. The staved vessels I've done have been about 8" diameter, and maybe 9 or 10" deep which has provided plenty of access for working the inside with a 1/2" spindle gouge and scrapers. Assuming this drum is that size or larger you have a ton of options, with the good access most of it can be handled with traditional tools. But,like Dean said, there are as many different approaches as turners, and perhaps even a few more approaches than turners.

The inside of a staved drum can be approached much like the end grain hollowing it mirrors. The major difference is that there is a lot more visibility and space for the toolrest to allow shorter overhangs than one typically has for a hollow form.

FWIW, I think you are over thinking the glue part of this. Glue will turn fine with tools, look at it as roughing, once you are through the initial shaping, take a few minutes, sharpen the tools and adjust the presentation to one that might work more slowly but will provide a better surface. My gluing crew has never been accused of starving a joint, and there was a lot of squeeze out on the inside of my vessels.
 
All.
Thanks for comments and experiences.
Thankful for this forum and the countless years of experience.
Happy to maintain my membership every year.

We'll give the Carter Hollower with the Hunter cutter a go on the inside.
I'll sharpen up my SRG and cut the outside.
Probably rough out a few spindles to get back in the swing of things.
This should be fairly good/safe approach for a new turner to use for the process

Dean,
Agreed. Try stuff till you figure it out (paraphrasing). That is a beautiful approach.


Kirk,
True enough. I am a bit fixated on the volume of glue.
Too many years handplaning table top glue ups.
I like your vantage- Its really just part of the roughing out process

Again, thanks.
 
There are those who say that scrapers don't cut, they scrape. I don't agree, maybe a minor technicality. It is a scraping cut, and that is why I get nice long shavings when I am roughing out my bowls. For bowls, a scraping cut will work fairly well when sweeping across the bottom of a bowl where the fibers are all pretty flat. On the walls and in the transition you run into the uphill/downhill/uphill/downhill for each revolution. Here the scrapers do not work as well and you do not get as clean of a surface as you do with a shear scrape or a gouge cut. On end grain pieces, and for me, that is mostly boxes, you can get glass smooth surfaces due to grain orientation. for my box tops, bottoms, and walls, I will generally use a NRS for the finish cuts, rather than a standard scraper. Just easier and leaves a better surface, at least most of the time. Some day, I plan on getting some of the Hunter tools just to see how they work. At present, most of my boxes are flat/square bottom with no transition. The cupped tool/cutter is designed to be used in shear cutting mode. The flat cutters are designed to be used in scraping mode, which to me is the cutting edge is presented to the wood at 90 degrees to the rotation. They can be presented in a shear scraping mode, but most of the tool shafts are square, not round. This makes this type of cut more difficult. Just like a skew, if you are on the high side of the cutter, you can get a big catch.

robo hippy
 
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