Turning methods affect on finishing

[blackhorse]

I have not been able to find much on the form regarding the effect of turning tools and techniques on applying colored finishes. I believe I have had a problem because of the way I turned the piece.
The work is soft maple turned and send it to 400. I then applied an alcohol-based dye. The results were highly irregular and splotchy. I think the cause was the different way I used my skew chisel versus the spindle gouge. Any ideas on this?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have not been able to find much on the form regarding the effect of turning tools and techniques on applying colored finishes. I believe I have had a problem because of the way I turned the piece.
The work is soft maple turned and send it to 400. I then applied an alcohol-based dye. The results were highly irregular and splotchy. I think the cause was the different way I used my skew chisel versus the spindle gouge. Any ideas on this?

Spindle work isn't the best place to use aniline dyes because you have a mixture of end and face grain that will play havoc with absorption. If simply coloring the wood is your goal rather than bringing out the chatoyance, I think that applying a shellac sealer first would help with the blotchy appearance. For me, face grain is the best place to use alanine dye on figured maple.

 

[John Tisdale]

Try Lockwood

I have excellent results dyeing walnut with Lockwood water base dye. First you spritz with water, then spritz heavily with the diluted dye and then wipe off. I have found over the dozen or so I've done that the more diluted, the better the results.

The problem inherent with turned items is you have a single piece with multiple grain directions - spritzing with clear water helps even it out.

My only experience with a maple was to sunburst the bottom half. It that case I applied a barrier coat, let it go to flash, and then airbrushed acetone based dye - was trying to achieve a Gibson Barney Kessel look - it actually worked.

While the Lockwood dye's can be used with water or alcohol, I will always go with water - fast drying dye on highly problematic raw wood is terrifying. Applying fast drying over a barrier-coated piece is more manageable but you need to be sure about compatibility.

If you get good results on the first try you can call Jimmy Clewes and tell him there's a new sheriff in town.

 

[Steve Worcester]

I think the results is the wood vs the dyes. Softer woods are going to be splotche vs harder woods. You can put a barrier coat like a lacquer or such, but you don't get dye penetration because you are dyeing the coat vs the wood.
some of it has to do with tecqnique of the tool, but that is how well you cut vs dyes. Cleaner cuts will give you more evenness of penetration, pictures would help there

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... My only experience with a maple was to sunburst the bottom half. It that case I applied a barrier coat, let it go to flash, and then airbrushed acetone based dye - was trying to achieve a Gibson Barney Kessel look - it actually worked......

Your comment about acetone based dye caught my attention. After viewing a Doug Fisher video, I have been searching without success for the acetone based aniline dye he mentioned ... or any acetone based dye without any success. I would dearly love to know what you use and where to find it.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Any dye that can be mixed with alcohol can be mixed with acetone. I mix all the dyes I use with acetone because I know that when I no longer smell the acetone the dye is set. I struggled with dyeing for over two years until I sat in on a Chris Pytlik demo. I learned more in an hour than two plus years of use.

 

[john lucas]

I do a fair amount of antique restoration and spindles are always a problem with dyes and stains. The problem is simple. When you turn a bead for example you have mostly end grain followed by a short section of long grain on the top. The long grain won't absorb the dye or stain like the end grain. On flat boards it's easy. You sand the end grain to a higher grit than the side grain and then it will absorb the dye about the same as the side grain. That's not so easy to do on turnings. What I end up doing is to air brush the dye on. I can spray lightly on the end grain and then several coats on the side grain. It's still a pain and I'm sure there is a better way. Probably one of the stain pre treatments to even out the absorbtion. I've tried a few but not with much success. I haven't dyed many bowls or hollow vessels so can't give advice there.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Soft maple always problematic

Back before falling to the Dark Side, I made a few flat things with maple, one of my favorite woods, and the "soft maple" especially is very prone to blotching. Always needed to do a wash coat (shellac), before any staining or final finish. Easy to see how it could be very tricky to dye turned pieces.

 

[blackhorse]

Thanks for all the responses. It certainly looks like the mix of grains is the answer.
I have tried sealer coats (1# cut shellac). It evens out the absorption, but very little stain is absorbed.
I think I will try a little sealer on only the end greens.
Thanks again!

 

[Bill Boehme]

Any dye that can be mixed with alcohol can be mixed with acetone. I mix all the dyes I use with acetone because I know that when I no longer smell the acetone the dye is set. I struggled with dyeing for over two years until I sat in on a Chris Pytlik demo. I learned more in an hour than two plus years of use.

Thank you very much for the information. I will do some searching to see what I can find out about Chris Pytik.

 

[blackhorse]

Have to wonder...

how they get such beautiful finishes such as these, though.

 

[Bill Boehme]

how they get such beautiful finishes such as these, though.View attachment 8526

I don't think that it is the finish as much as it is the surface preparation BEFORE starting to apply the finish. A beautiful finishing job won't be any better than what is beneath it.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I don't think that it is the finish as much as it is the surface preparation BEFORE starting to apply the finish. A beautiful finishing job won't be any better than what is beneath it.

Bill , This one looks interesting:http://www.westbaywoodturners.com/demo_reports/Pytlik_Mar2011.htm

 

[john lucas]

Ditto what Bill said. Getting a fine looking piece is simply a matter of sanding to perfection and then applying whatever finish. Well not exactly. I've seen some really goopy looking spray on gloss finishes. You do need to be careful with the finish as well as the sanding. If you sand the piece until there aren't any sanding marks and of course turn it first so there aren't any tear out marks, then almost any finish will look good. No glossy finishes have materials in them to reflect light differently so they don't look glossy but they should still look excellent if you did your job sanding.
How far should you sand. Depends on the wood and the type of finish. I took 4 different kinds of woods to our club. Each had been sanded in steps from 120 up to 1500. I applied several different finishes from thin oils to thick lacquer. Nobody could tell where the grits changed from 600 on up on any of the pieces no matter what finish I used. Most of the pieces you could not tell beyond 400. Now this was only local woods no exotics. In my experience some exotics will show even the smallest sanding scratches. I should say that these were all flat boards sanded with the grain. On turnings where you will most likely be sanding across the grain somewhere you will need to sand to a higher grit. Most of my turnings are not sanded beyond 600 grit and I get a lot of compliments on my finishes. Some exotics have to be sanded to 1200 or more to get rid of all sanding scratches.

 

[Bill Boehme]

There is another reason for sanding wood to a very high grit ... when I do any inlay work especially if it is transparent then I will sand with Micromesh up to 12000 grit. The inlay will have a glass like finish and it does no harm to the wood to go beyond whatever grit is necessary to get rid of visible scratches.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have not been able to find much on the form regarding the effect of turning tools and techniques on applying colored finishes. I believe I have had a problem because of the way I turned the piece....

I had one other thought about this. If you are riding the bevel with a lot of force then it is possible to burnish the surface of the wood so that it has a glossy sheen.
When that happens you can see some light colored rings where the wood fibers are not able to take on as much dye because they have been compressed. This is assuming that you haven't sanded enough to remove all of the crushed fibers.