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Ugh, Yet Another Bowl Gouge Sharpening Thread

Tom Albrecht

Tom Albrecht

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If you are all set with your sharpening system and are tired of seeing the coverage this subject gets here, the title of the thread should be enough to send you on your way.

On the other hand, if you think you might like a better, more consistent, easily repeatable way to get an Irish grind (AKA Ellsworth grind) using the Oneway Wolverine set up, you should check out this system from Don Geiger:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrpEkWprzZc&t=6s


I am not in any way connected to Geiger. Ellsworth recommended his system to me when I took his class.
Here are some shots of his new aluminum gauge.
geiger - 1.jpg geiger - 2.jpg geiger - 3.jpg
 
Don is a genius at sharpening and fine turner too.
His Natral edge bowl demo is terrific.

His web site is well populated with use tips and some products I use all the time.

Don is a far distant neighbor 2 hrs. and a great guy to be around.
I get to see him 4-5 times a year and have a meal with him on some of those occasions
 
Tom Albrecht said:
If you are all set with your sharpening system and are tired of seeing the coverage this subject gets here, the title of the thread should be enough to send you on your way.

On the other hand, if you think you might like a better, more consistent, easily repeatable way to get an Irish grind (AKA Ellsworth grind) using the Oneway Wolverine set up, you should check out this system from Don Geiger:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrpEkWprzZc&t=6s


I am not in any way connected to Geiger. Ellsworth recommended his system to me when I took his class.
Here are some shots of his new aluminum gauge.
View attachment 22605 View attachment 22606 View attachment 22607
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, Tom......this is very ingenious. Thanks for showing us.

What are the dimensions of the aluminum block?

-----odie-----
 
It should be noted that this Geiger system works best with parabolic fluted gouges, like the original Ellsworth gouge, and some others. There are quite a few of them out there, but I haven't seen the word "parabolic" used in any tool description. Even when I called Craft Supplies USA today, it was hard to get straight answer out of the tech rep that answered my call. Initially he said that the "Ellsworth" tools were the only ones they carried that are "parabolic". I know that the D-way bowl gouges are not parabolic, from personal experience, and that's too bad because they are so well machined and well made. Ask before you buy.
 
The parabolic flute is the super flute.

An old article is still alive in cyberspace
http://www.peterchild.co.uk/info1/sflute.htm

The Henry Taylor gouges and many other manufactures use this flute design.

The Henry Taylor artisan is a good tool. The Jamison gouge made by Thompson has become my favorite. Both take the Ellsworth grind nicely and make some of the advanced cuts easier to do. Also the Ellsworth signature gouges are fine tools as well.
 
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odie said:
What are the dimensions of the aluminum block?
Click to expand...

Hopefully someone can give me these dimensions. I tried to calculate from the picture what the dimensions of the set-up block is, and as close as I can figure, it's very close to: 3/4" x 1 1/2" x 2". Is that correct?????

I've been playing around with this method of doing Ellsworth, spindle, and micro-bevel gouges......and doing a few comparisons and modifications for my own personal use.

.......But, I'd really like to have those exact dimensions, if anyone else has them........thanks. :)

-----odie-----
 
Odie, I am sorry, but I don't feel right about giving away the dimensions. And, I know what you are doing and trying to do, because I did the same thing myself with the small blocks of wood. Don went through all the testing, formulating, and engineering to come up with a reasonably priced clever piece of equipment. I don't blame you for asking, I thought of it myself, but then decided to contact Geiger and just bought the aluminum block since I had the rest of the stuff already.
I hope you understand. It's not that I don't want you to be able to do it, I just can't feel right about it.
Tom

(I believe I sent him $32 for the aluminum gauge block)
 
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Tom Albrecht said:
Odie, I am sorry, but I don't feel right about giving away the dimensions. And, I know what you are doing and trying to do, because I did the same thing myself with the small blocks of wood. Don went through all the testing, formulating, and engineering to come up with a reasonably priced clever piece of equipment. I don't blame you for asking, I thought of it myself, but then decided to contact Geiger and just bought the aluminum block since I had the rest of the stuff already.
I hope you understand. It's not that I don't want you to be able to do it, I just can't feel right about it.
Tom

(I believe I sent him $32 for the aluminum gauge block)
Click to expand...

Tom.......from my experimenting and evaluating, I can see that the block is an entirely unnecessary element of the process. The block can be replaced by four marks on the Oneway V-arm......and, in doing so, makes the method much more simplified. It would be nice to know the dimensions, but that's no guarantee that Geiger's calculations are applicable to my, or any other experienced turner's methods. It is most certainly a starting point, and makes a sensible way of understanding a seemingly more complicated process for a rank newbie.....and, that's exactly where Geiger's target market is.

If I bought Geiger's block for the dimensions, I believe it probably would be a waste of my money, since my own developed methods are not from a beginner's perspective. I have developed my own methods, and I'd like a simple way to make some comparisons......even though I'm quite satisfied with the reasons and why for's of the evolution in my own processes. I have explained my methods of reproducing the Ellsworth style of grinds in these forums in the past.......and I've made no secrets about how my process is done.

Recently, I've seen a video made by Doug Thompson, of Thompson lathe tools. This is also a great video. He gave the information freely of how he grinds his tools.....no secret there! He also uses 60° for his tools. After my thinking and evaluating Geiger's method over the past few days, it looks like the only thing that can't be exactly duplicated simply and easily, is the exact measurements he uses......but, I doubt his particular grind has any magical element that many other turners can't use with their similarly ground gouges. The block I made myself is close, if not exact......and, it does produce good results. These results aren't any better than the methods I've developed for myself, and have used in my own shop for several decades. They also don't seem to be any better than Doug Thompson's methods, or anyone else who is able to use a specified extension length, and find the distance of the V-arm that repeatably reproduces a 60° angle at the nose.

If anyone else has these dimensions, I still wouldn't mind having them, strictly for my own evaluation......thanks.

-----odie-----
 
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Kelly,
The Ellsworth grind is one of the more popular grinds in use today.
There are many other good choices too.

If you want to reproduce the Ellsworth grind and have a Geiger vertical solution or a home made pivot point 4" below the center of the wheel and 7" from the face of the wheel.

Don has a handout on making a box to set the varigrind.
The basic geometry Don came up with is:
front of the jig on a table top the pivot point must be 6.25" off the table

http://www.geigerssolutions.com/upload/120922 Box Gauge to set Vari Grind.pdf

The box makes it easier and more accurate to set the jig than using a ruler or square.

Don's Evolution is an add on to the varigrind system that among other things makes it easy to
1. Put the Ellsworth grind on a gouge
2. Put a micro bevel on the Ellsworth grind and
3. Use the same setup to grind a detailgouge or spindle gouge
 
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Tom Albrecht said:
Well you can be sure that Don Geiger has the dimensions!
Click to expand...
True enough.......at this point, I'd only want the dimensions to confirm how close my guesswork was. If anyone wants to send them to me, it wouldn't be any different than knowing the dimensions of the throat on a patented carburetor......but, I guess that's beside the point. I wouldn't want you, Tom, to feel your ethical code is violated by giving the dimensions.

My purpose wasn't to try and sell Geiger's invention.......only to compare what he thinks is a do-all grind, and how the performance compares to my idea of a similar grind. From what I can tell, Geiger's grind is very similar to one of my grinds done by another method.

One thing for sure......I can use Geiger's original idea, although I modified it to use markings on the shaft of my V-arm. In my opinion, it's a better solution than the stop, and three sided aluminum block. There's less fuss with extra parts, and I can use it for one grind that I do which is very similar to Geiger's grind. Besides, that stop Geiger uses means the V-arm is permanently sticking out and in the way. I guess you can consider this my own idea, now! :D If anyone else wants to scribe some marks on the shaft of their V-arm, I could care less......because I have no intention to make any money from it. ;)

Those familiar with my posts in the past, are well aware that I seldom use the vari-grind jig much anymore......mainly because it's my learned/experienced opinion that a traditional, or standard grind is capable of producing superior results on most any kind of complex surfaces. I'm well aware there is disagreement with my assessment on that........but, the only thing that counts, is results......and, my results are there for anyone to see! :cool:

-----odie-----

IMG_2806.JPG
 
Hmmmm... I guess it would be easier for me to get it if I used the swept back gouges, which I don't. The micro bevel is, I am fairly sure, what Johannes Michaelson uses with his grinding set up. A couple of ways to do it. For me, it is on the platform, and I just roll the bottom of the bevel on the wheel to grind it off. Johannes has a 6 or so point set up for the tail of the sharpening jig. If you have a standard grind on your gouge, then it would be simple to adjust your set point front or back to relieve the heel leaving a micro bevel, or to grind a separate micro bevel... I only use 60 and 70 degree bevels for BOB tools. I much more prefer the 45/45 grind for most of my gouge cutting. I do all shear scraping with scrapers, and heavy stock removal with scrapers. Given that, I have no use for a swept back grind.

robo hippy
 
odie said:
....mainly because it's my learned/experienced opinion that a traditional, or standard grind is capable of producing superior results on most any kind of complex surfaces. I'm well aware there is disagreement with my assessment on that........but, the only thing that counts, is results......and, my results are there for anyone to see!-
Click to expand...

The Ellsworth grind is a superb choice for hollow forms, natural edge bowls, and roughing out larger bowls. Don Ginger's system is to help people achieve the Ellsworth grind and to be able easily add a secondary bevel creating a micro bevel edge.

Your grind works for the pieces you turn. I would be interested to see the results you get on Natural edge bowls, hollow forms, and roughing bowls from green wood before I would accept that your standard grind does as well.
I find the Ellsworth grind beats the traditional grind in roughing time, the smoothness of the interrupted cut. Smoothness of the finished surface on wet wood and punky wood.
 
Differences of opinion can be a healthy thing, and make all of us turn the mental gears, Al.......What's not good is when those differences of opinion get in the way of realizing others believe in the methods they have evolved to, and are successful in producing good results. We all need to be allowed "our own space". When discussions digress into accusations of right vs wrong, then things go south from there.......:rolleyes:

I think one thing we can all agree on, is Geiger's product is a good way to simplify the act of getting a swept back grind that can be used by those searching for a way to initially prepare some usable tools.....and get on with the process of learning how to use those tools. For this purpose, his system is brilliant, and is bound to serve those who purchase it.....very well. :D

For the rest of us......we all will eventually realize there are many types of grinds, and methods of putting theory into reality. Once we establish that in our mental processes, then it opens up a whole new universe of what is possible.....and THAT is only the springboard to another completely different universe of how those possibilities can be applied.......;)

-----odie-----
 
Mike Johnson said:
We should all just get a CNC wood lathe and all of these discussions would morph
into a whole new set of comparisons. :)
Click to expand...

Heh,heh,heh.......Indeed it would, Mike.....:D

I think we're all pretty much safe from being replaced by technology. There are exceptions where technology might enhance woodturning......like "seeing" the wall thickness of hollow forms, and such......but, the human element, the "feel" for how the tool is cutting, and the unique "artistic touch" in all of us will never be imitated. :cool:. A machine will never duplicate that, but can, to a certain degree, mimic human characteristics in a very mechanical sort of way.

-----odie-----
 
Computers are getting close to having aparent original thought.
With original thought they can create new original works of art.

Digital printers are being used to create components that we do not know how to make with machining. Give a thinking machine control of a robot, digital printer .....

Self driving cars are here. They are still struggling with assessing road hazard's and avoid paper bags in the same way they would avoid a concrete block but so what better for the paper bags. :)
 
You know........I just realized that I made a mistake. (OMG!) :)

Before anyone else makes some permanent marks on their V-arm, like I did, I figure I should mention this. The marks are only applicable to one size of grinding wheel, and will not reproduce the 60° nose angle as the wheel wears. For those who are using CBN, or other wheels that don't wear to a smaller diameter, this won't matter.........and darned if Don Geiger didn't mention this very thing in his video! :eek:

Luckily, my blue Norton SG wheels wear at an incredibly slow pace, so I won't have to worry about this for awhile. I think I'll use a paint marker when it comes time for me to update the marks.

Live and learn, I suppose! :D

-----odie-----

IMG_2806.JPG
 
hockenbery said:
Computers are getting close to having aparent original thought.
With original thought they can create new original works of art.
Click to expand...

Original thought is one thing ... good judgement is quite another. I have a lot of original thoughts, but my judgement tells me to keep them to myself. :D

A machine can store the results of past experience, but it can't do true creative thinking that comes from inspiration. Besides, until there are art critic machines that can deliver humbling BSOD critiques to art creating machines and art collector machines willing to pay money for those creations, machine created "art" is just so much bit twiddling.

There was a recent NPR debate on the future of AI. One team consisted of experts in the real world of what AI is all about and the other team were some psychologists who had written a fanciful fiction about what they imagined AI to be probably after watching too many episodes of Star Trek and Star Wars.
 
A computerized machine will never be able to look at the wood billet on the lathe and
make that creative decision on how best to reveal the natural beauty of the wood grain
and figure contained in the piece, or creating elegant profiles in the piece that are pleasing
to the eye. What enjoyment would there be by pushing a button and having the piece eject
out the other end of the machine after several minutes?

It would allow more time for putting a finish on the piece. :-)
 
We would all like to think we can not be replaced by machines.
But we also know the history of computation is not the best predictor of the future of computation.

We use to think a computer could not tell the difference between a cat and a dog.
Now it is difficult to tell a dog photo from a computer drawn dog.
 
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hockenbery said:
We use to think a computer could not tell the difference between a cat and a dog.
Now it is difficult to tell a dog photo from a computer drawn dog.
Click to expand...

We cats are smart enough to know the difference. Mr. Squeak (pictured at left) can show you pictures of dog noses that he has sliced and diced. :eek:

Humans can design computers, but computers can't design a human. :)
 
hockenbery said:
Bill consider changing can't to haven't.
Absoulutes are getting harder to come by with people and machines doing the impossible everyday.
Click to expand...

I guess R2D2, and C3PO might be a reality someday!.......might be better to "never say never".

I read an article sometime in the past where some wealthy Japanese men have "female" robot companions. That seems a little weird to me......but, in the end, my bet is these robots of the fairer sex can't do absolutely everything a real live woman can! :D

-----odie-----
 
Odie That's why I use spacers to set my V arm. My wooden spacers are similar to the metal ones on the market. I got the idea from Mike Darlow's book but his were more complicated. By going from the V arm to a 2 point area that touches the grinding wheel it compensates for any wheel wear and ever to some degree using someone elses grinder where the Oneway jig may not be set the same. Also instead of using a block to move the V arm each time when doing the type of grind with a micro bevel I simply put a V block in the V block to move the Wolverine jig forward which creates the relief grind. Since I am using a CBN wheel on one side of my grinder I have set the V arm to one position for the bowl gouge and it never moves. When you need to move it I have a V block for more acute grinds like my spindle gouges. that way I never have to move the Oneway V arm at all. I still use my Robo Rest on the other side to do all the other grinds that I play with.
http://www.baileigh.com/outside-radius-gauge-org-3600?gclid=CPj5payO_NMCFdY2gQodjaUOKw
 
hockenbery said:
Come to Kansas City and seen Glenn Lucas in person.
Glenn is one of the premier bowl turners on the planet.

Kelly might make you want to learn to use the Ellsworth grind. :)
Click to expand...


Very true about Glen Lucas being a very accomplished woodturner. He is most famous for his production turning techniques for mass producing simple, but very well executed shapes in bowl turning. For this, the Ellsworth grind is exceptional, but is lacking in ability for more complex shapes. I'm always interested in learning other turner's techniques for sharpening the Ellsworth grind, which is my purpose for being involved with this thread.

After having used the Ellsworth grind for many years, almost exclusively, I've returned to my roots and brought back the traditional, or standard grind to my repertoire. I've learned that I can't eliminate the Ellsworth grind, but more so have discovered that a combination of both types of grinds are most favorable to the style that I have developed for myself.

-----odie-----
 
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odie said:
Very true about Glen Lucas being a very accomplished woodturner. He is most famous for his production turning techniques for mass producing simplistic shapes in bowl turning. For this, the Ellsworth grind is exceptional, but is lacking in ability for more complex shapes. I'm always interested in learning other turner's techniques for sharpening the Ellsworth grind, which is my purpose for being involved with this thread.
--
Click to expand...
The tip of the Ellsworth makes an inside corner round. I find a spindle gouge is a great companion.
I use the spindle gouge for shaping any details like beads, grooves, a small foot, rims on a winged bowl, chuck tenons(both square and dovetail). the spindle gouge has the bonus of leaving a better surface than any bowl gouge.
 
One interesting observation is many turners use some sort of mechanical device for determining a preset nose angle on their gouges. Don Geiger uses his new invention, which I do think is a good method.......John Lucas does, and Doug Thompson mentions getting his 60° with some sort of jig, but did it by eye in the video I saw. An example of this would be the "raptor" style of jigs. Glen Lucas may use a jig for a newly formed grind, but I did see him setting the V-arm length by eye on a gouge that already had an initial grind established......observing the bevel, as it makes contact with the wheel, from the side. This may not be an "exact" way of doing it......but, in the end, does it really matter if the resultant grind is 60°, or 61°, or 59°.....? This is the way I've been doing it.....sort of a cross between Doug Thompson's eyeing the initial bevel, and once the grind is established, to set the V-arm length by observing the contact surface from the side.

(Note: Al......I'm not going to get into a debate with you over the inherent value of the grinds you use vs the grinds I use. I will suggest that since my turning experience began prior to the Ellsworth, or side-grind revolution, and yours was initiated after that specific point, the differences in our perceptions may be influenced by the time differentiation's in our own individual experiences.)

-----odie-----
 
One of my mentors suggested that I buy a cheap gouge, and learn to grind freehand. He says to just have a good gouge where you like the shape, and grind the cheap one to match. Then, repeat. And repeat again. He says it should take about a day of practice, but after that, sharpening is a lot faster freehand than in any jig.

Having seen the quality of his work, I cannot dispute that his tools are sharp (along with his technique and creativity...)
 
odie said:
.... He is most famous for his production turning techniques for mass producing simplistic shapes in bowl turning.....
Click to expand...

Did you mean to say "simple" rather than "simplistic"? There is very significant difference in meaning. A simple shape would be a plain unadorned form such as a hemispherical or elliptical shape whereas the adjective simplistic is a pejorative word that implies a lack of good understanding or if talking about the works produced implies being poorly done.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Did you mean to say "simple" rather than "simplistic"? There is very significant difference in meaning. A simple shape would be a plain unadorned form such as a hemispherical or elliptical shape whereas the adjective simplistic is a pejorative word that implies a lack of good understanding or if talking about the works produced implies being poorly done.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks for the correction, Bill.......

In that sense, "simple" would be the correct word.

Glen Lucas' works are definitely not poorly done. :D

(My post has been edited to reflect this.)

-----odie-----
 
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odie said:
I will suggest that since my turning experience began prior to the Ellsworth, or side-grind revolution, and yours was initiated after that specific point, the differences in our perceptions may be influenced by the time differentiation's in our own individual experiences.)----
Click to expand...

Kelly, I got my first lathe in 1975 turned some but not a lot.
Of course Ellsworth was well established in 1975 so my beginning was after Ellsworth.
In 1987 Woodturning began to consume most of my spare time.

Three things had a profound impact upon my turning.
In 1993 I joined the AAW. I then got an invited to a Chesapeake Woodturner's meeting.
Tha aaw and the local chapter connected me with other Woodturner's.

In 1994 I took a class with Liam O'Neil - the inventor if the side grind - probably the best turner I have ever seen. Learned to use and hand sharpen the O'Neil grind
In 1995 I took a class with David Ellsworth - learned to use and hand sharpen the Ellsworth grind. Learned to hollow.

Al
 
I did buy one of Glenn's signature gouges to try out his parabolic flute shape. An interesting note to me was that the particular one I got was a 50/50 type of grind, so 50 degree bevel, and the amount of sweep was the width of the gouge, so not as far swept back as other variations of that grind.

Maybe in KC I can get on a lathe with him and show him how to use the Big Ugly tool.....

robo hippy
 
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