I'm looking at purchasing a Crown Tools 243PM 3/4 Inch PM Bowl Gouge. I have a Jet 1221 1-horsepower lathe. Will this gouge be too strong for turning green live-edge bowls?
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Using 3/4 bowl gouge - 5/8 flute - on a 1HP lathe?
- Thread starter Mark Goulais
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Might depend on the sharpness, your skill, the speed/related torque, and how deep the cut is. Removing large amounts of wood at once with that gouge might be challenging.
I've used a gouge similar to that on dry wood on a 1hp lathe. Wet wood is easier. But why so big a gouge? Seems a 1/2" or even a 3/8" bowl gouge would work fine and may be more appropriate. But I don't usually turn green.
But maybe you know someone who would loan such a gouge for you to try before you buy.
JKJ
With a light cut (relative to its cutting capacity), you'll be okay. Take a heavy cut and you may overwhelm the motor. Set the pulleys to let the motor run fast for the spindle speed you want, that will help.
1/2" and 3/8" gouges will be kind to the motor and reduce a lump of wood to shavings quite quickly on a 12" lathe.
1/2" and 3/8" gouges will be kind to the motor and reduce a lump of wood to shavings quite quickly on a 12" lathe.
I'm like JKJ, why so big of a gouge? I rarely use a gouge bigger than 5/8, I too would suggest to go smaller. Bigger is not always better
Tom Gall
TOTW Team
I agree with @John K Jordan and @Sam Force. I have one (Henry Taylor I believe) and I have rarely used it. That being said, I don't recall any problems using it on with my 1 hp lathe - but I probably wasn't using it to take extra heavy cuts either ... hence, my preference for a smaller gouge.
Thank you for the reply!!!!! Such a great organization to be a member of.
I've seen these used on larger/stronger lathes, and they worked wonderfully.
Wish I knew someone close by who turns to try (the nearest club, 90 mins one way), will have to go easy now on the 12-21, but I will have a use for it when I upgrade. (Cheaper now than later).
I've seen these used on larger/stronger lathes, and they worked wonderfully.
Wish I knew someone close by who turns to try (the nearest club, 90 mins one way), will have to go easy now on the 12-21, but I will have a use for it when I upgrade. (Cheaper now than later).
Well, it will never be as affordable as it is today. Get it, and dream of those giant shavings yet to come. Fresh from the wheel, those Crown Pro PM tools can be wicked sharp, and very willing and able to strip the hide off any lump of wood.
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After reading many of the above opinions, I am reminded of a lighter I used to have that said "It isn't the size of the rod that matters, it's how you wiggle the worm") - technique and sharpness trump gouge size any day of the week. I can't imagine using a 3/4" gouge - I use a 5/8 sometimes but usually just for roughing , and I run a Jet 1642 lathe. Only reason you'd possibly want such a big gouge is when quickly roughing out a bowl to round - but if you're already round, you'll probably find a 3/4" gouge just entirely too big for finer and detailing work especially on a 12" or smaller bowl... I'd call it a waste of money, myself...
A production turner friend used a 1/2" bowl gouge for all of his work -- bowls up to 12-14". I have a 5/8" bowl gouge which I rarely if ever use. I find a 1/2" is plenty.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
I have a 3 hp lathe. I was given a 3/4" gouge. I gave it away. Too heavy. I can take huge cuts with my 5/8". Just didnt see any benefit of that tool.
Several of make drives like that for club meetings. Well worth the drive to meet people, ask questions, watch the demos, especially if you can carpool And you might meet someone there who lives close to you!
Just completed one of those trips today -- 90 miles, 90 minutes each way -- to the Cincinnati meeting for a day of Helen Bailey demos. And I made the same trip last Saturday to teach a class in their learning center.
I have a few 5/8” gouges, and no 3/4” bowl gouges. If I wanted to I could stall my 3hp lathe with the 5/8” gouges. On a 1hp lathe I think you’ll find the 3/4” is “too much club.” I think you’ll be happier with a 1/2” bowl gouge. And regarding the brand, I think you’ll LOVE the Crown PM gouge.
Almost all of my work is first turned from green wood. When I come by a fresh tree I first turn it all as quickly as possible and that can amount to many dozens of blanks at a time. For that I like to use the largest gouges in proportion to the diameter of the blank.
I face off almost all blanks with a 1-1/4" (32mm) gouge and then do my layout where I can see what I have happening in the blank
Larger diameter green pieces (14" and above), particularly platters, but also very large bowls, are 1st turn with 1" bowl gouges, medium sized blanks are turned with 3/4" BGs and smaller blanks (up to 12") are all turned with 5/8" BGs.
Yes, 1/2" BGs will also do the job if you don't mind taking longer and sharpening more often.
Large BGs are very expensive now and unless you are going to use them a lot, so they pay for themselves, they may not be sensible. Mine paid for themselves a very long time ago, but I might think differently if I was buying them now. If I never turned green wood I probably wouldn't have a larger gouge than a 5/8".
I do all of my turning on a 1.5HP lathe and no piece or gouge has stopped it yet. Different story with coring large blanks.
I do have just a few 1/2" BGs in my tool rack and they get to be used when final turning small pieces or very hard seasoned wood blanks. My 1/2" TC BGs are ideal for those tougher customers...
I face off almost all blanks with a 1-1/4" (32mm) gouge and then do my layout where I can see what I have happening in the blank
Larger diameter green pieces (14" and above), particularly platters, but also very large bowls, are 1st turn with 1" bowl gouges, medium sized blanks are turned with 3/4" BGs and smaller blanks (up to 12") are all turned with 5/8" BGs.
Yes, 1/2" BGs will also do the job if you don't mind taking longer and sharpening more often.
Large BGs are very expensive now and unless you are going to use them a lot, so they pay for themselves, they may not be sensible. Mine paid for themselves a very long time ago, but I might think differently if I was buying them now. If I never turned green wood I probably wouldn't have a larger gouge than a 5/8".
I do all of my turning on a 1.5HP lathe and no piece or gouge has stopped it yet. Different story with coring large blanks.
I do have just a few 1/2" BGs in my tool rack and they get to be used when final turning small pieces or very hard seasoned wood blanks. My 1/2" TC BGs are ideal for those tougher customers...
Personally, I wouldnt worry about it, unless you want to turn some large diameters of hardwood and go at like a bull in a China shop. As has been said, you can go light on the cuts till you gain confidence. Avoid the hardest species go at gently with them if you have to use the hard stuff and make sure everything is very sharp.
If your technique is not quite there yet, soft wood will scare the daylights out of you if you're careful as well.
If your technique is not quite there yet, soft wood will scare the daylights out of you if you're careful as well.
I have 2 3/4 V and 1 3/4 U Tompson gouges. After watching Doug Thompson turn a full size cowboy hat in my shop complete in less than 2 hours with a 1/2 V and a 3/8 V on my Powermatic, without sharpening, I let them sit in a drawer. After all these years I still find chips at the 10 ft level of my shop when I have to get up on a ladder. If you can throw 1/2" thick chips 10 ft tall with a 1/2 V gouge why would I need a 3/4 V. That is why they sit in a drawer, my go to tool on all my lathes are my 5/8 V's. And by the way that was the last piece Doug has ever turned and I have it. The most gouge you would need with that 12" lathe is a 5/8" and you could easily stay with a 1/2" and not lose time.
I am among those who have tried a 3/4 inch gouge, and didn't like it. I do all of my roughing with scrapers, and finish cuts with gouges, then shear scrape for final cuts. I think what is most important is how thick of a shaving are you taking? I may not be able to take as wide of a shaving with a gouge, swept back grinds included, but can pull off a very thick shaving with my 40/40 grind. The thickness more than makes up for width, at least to me. I do use 5/8 on the outside, and 1/2 inch on the inside. I resisted for years the concept that 1/2 inch gouges work better on the inside than 5/8, but on a whim, tried it once. Now it is my go to gouge for finish cuts on the insides of my bowls. I can't figure out why they work better, but they sure seem to. I mean, the geometry of the cutting edge is identical, so the large one "should" work right?
robo hippy
robo hippy
Clarification.... 3/4 bar stock with a 5/8 flute. (The descriptions on the websites don't always specify the actual flute size, which makes it confusing for newbs.)
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..... <---- Eyes bug out at the thought of a 3/4 inch flute....
Yeah my response assumed it was the case you meant 3/4 bar stock .. still way too big.. amazing how much of a difference that 1/8" makes between a 5/8 and a 3/4 but having held plenty of 3/4" bolts in hand - 1-1/8" hex head - (working on construction machinery) just seems like it would be too bulky and unwieldy for me... But then again , to each their own - but I suspect you might use it 4 or 5 times and then discover you don't really need it as it'd be so heavy... then it becomes just another piece of (very expensive) steel laying around gathering dust... (Because you'll eventually realize that a nice sharp gouge of any size can cut as fast as you can go and the bulk of a 3/4 gouge would slow you down more than it might gain in size advantage over a 1/2" bowl gouge)
I truly appreciate all the valuable input regarding the bowl gouge query.
Ya know, the question is often asked..."What would you do differently if you could go back and change things?"
1) Invest with the guy who invented bottled water.
2)Have taken wood shop while in school.
Thank you all!
Using a 3/4" bowl gouge on a mini lathe is like putting monster truck tires on your golf cart. Even as others have mentioned, it's often overkill for much larger lathes.
Even as others have mentioned, it's often overkill for much larger lathes.
As for working with a 3/4" bowl gouge:
I personally do most bowls/platters/etc, inside and out, with a Hunter tool (the small Hercules at the bottom here).
Side view (after I modified and polished the heel behind the cutter).
Small or large pieces, round, winged, whatever, soft or very hard wood, doesn't matter - easiest way I know to make smooth, continuous cuts, shear scraping....
Once I learned to use it effectively I can't go back.
If it makes a difference this is with dry wood.
JKJ
I personally do most bowls/platters/etc, inside and out, with a Hunter tool (the small Hercules at the bottom here).
Side view (after I modified and polished the heel behind the cutter).
Small or large pieces, round, winged, whatever, soft or very hard wood, doesn't matter - easiest way I know to make smooth, continuous cuts, shear scraping....
Once I learned to use it effectively I can't go back.
If it makes a difference this is with dry wood.
JKJ
It is really nice to have in your inventory two types of tools you love, you know they work, they work well and you know they never ever let you down. Those are my exact feeling about Hunter Carbide Systems and Thompson Lathe Tools. No matter what I come up against or what I'm trying to do these tools will do it. I read this AM that someone asked if you could start over knowing what you know now what would you do? I know I would just look at my lathe for a few years till Doug made his turning tools as I'll bet by the time Doug gave me my first Thompson Tool I had purchased at least 50 turning tools (I have none of those tools today). And as far as carbide I never got into that flat carbide scraper stuff and when I heard about Mike Hunter and learned about his history in carbide (as in the carbide I used at the Erie GE) I got interested. Believe me I had tried the carbide I used at work on wood but it did not work. Even then the carbide I used to cut aluminum did not work on wood. Getting a Hunter carbide cutter tool was mind blowing, these things cut like no ones business. And you can take it from me that you won't find two finer gentlemen who are usually just a phone call away.
My experienced exactly. On recent calls one answered from the golf course, the other from the car and parked to talk. I've only been intercepted by voice mail a couple of times.
While a 3/4" bowl gouge is undoubtedly too large for a 1HP lathe, I'm in the minority in that I like my 3/4" 40/40ish gouge. It's extremely stable on the tool rest and will pull a 3/4" wide shaving if I want to. I use a freshly sharpened 5/8" dia. gouge and a shear scraper for finish cuts.
I had a 1-1/2 hp lathe for a while, and bogged it down just fine with a 1/2" bowl gouge.
You're trying to buy tires for a car you don't own yet.
I was in the MN Woodturners Assoc. for a few years in the early 00's along with Mike when he was developing his carbide tools and learning how to implement them to the woodturning realm. If I recall, before he introduced his tools to us, he came from the carbide tooling industry for metal work. If there's anyone who has a deep understanding of carbide cutting tools, it's Mike Hunter.
Odie
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
With a 1hp lathe, you won't be happy with the volume of wood you can remove in a single pass.
However, for very light cuts......a heavier gouge will be easier to work with. Weight sometimes makes the difference in a few specialized cuts.
=o=
However, for very light cuts......a heavier gouge will be easier to work with. Weight sometimes makes the difference in a few specialized cuts.
=o=
Kevin Jesequel
TOTW Team
You can take a 1”+ wide shaving with a swept back wing on a 1/2” (3/8” flute) bowl gouge, so bigger bar does not necessarily mean bigger cut. The main advantage of a larger bar diameter is the ability to reach further off the rest with less vibration. Of course, further off the rest makes you more susceptible to a catch with any diameter bar. One plus is that if you get it and don’t like it for roughing out, it would probably make a great bottom-of-bowl gouge.
I use 5/8” shaft bowl gouges for most BG work. I can stall a lot of lathes taking a big cut with a long wing. I have 1/2” and 3/8” BG’s. I can do anything with a 5/8” that I can do with a 1/2” BG, and the 5/8” is stiffer when I need to go farther off the tool rest. The 1/2” BG’s get used trying new grinds etc. The 3/8” get used for final ID starting cuts on bowls and small detail work.
5/8” shaft are still priced reasonably, 3/4” and larger are not. For those few with mega lathes making really large pieces a 3/4” likely makes sense, and one probably makes sense for deep bowls requiring a lot of tool reach off the rest - I have tool rests that reach into those deep bowls and the 5/8” works fine. Recommend you go with 5/8” for when you upgrade to a larger lathe. You can always take lighter cuts on your current lathe.
5/8” shaft are still priced reasonably, 3/4” and larger are not. For those few with mega lathes making really large pieces a 3/4” likely makes sense, and one probably makes sense for deep bowls requiring a lot of tool reach off the rest - I have tool rests that reach into those deep bowls and the 5/8” works fine. Recommend you go with 5/8” for when you upgrade to a larger lathe. You can always take lighter cuts on your current lathe.
Do you not like the bottom feeder grind?
I see many videos with a whole rack of turning tools. I'm not the brightest candle on the cake but I'm of the opinion that each one has a different diameter and different grind for specific uses.
I would think not, I started out with 1hp on Aussie hardwood, some argued but by and large no dramas
Might be another reason for keeping several tools with identical grinds. For example, I keep six Thompson 3/8” spindle gouges with identical grinds. When one gets dull, I put it in the “to sharpen” pile and put a fresh one in the handle, and keep turning. When all are dull, I stop, set up the jig on the Tormek, and sharpen all six with a 1200 grit CBN wheel. This keeps from interrupting my train of thought at the lathe AND can save time since sitting up the jig can take more time than sharpening one. (And I’m real picky about my spindle gouges.) Of course, I keep the spare sharp gouges in a drawer, tool only/no handle, so they take up very little space.
I do the same for diamond parting tools, some skews, and some other tools, e.g., curved NRS.
JKJ
I also have several Thompson 3/8" detail gouges a couple reasons. Like JKJ, it's handy to have several while you're in the middle of a session, as I was this afternoon (3+ hours of spindles for a single lattice). I also have these for student use in classes I teach (and several other types of tools as well). Students are welcome to use them, but not to sharpen them.
Good policy! I’ll demonstrate sharpening with my tools and let students practice with their own tools. But sharpen theirs if needed so they can go home with sharp tools.
When I was in my prime and turning 6 to 8 hrs a day I would always have 3 sharpened Thompson 5/8" Vs and they would last me all day and be sharpened at the end of the day for the next day. I have no problem using my 5/8 Vs on any of my lathes whether 10" Vicmarc, Powermatic or others in between. Even though I have 3/4" Thompsons I have never found that I had a real use for them.
Yes that is one reason, I have 4 different grinds on 5/8” shaft bg’s, but then I also have multiples of the same grind on a few others so I can keep going with a project. For me 5/8” shaft bg cuts a whole lot more miles of wood than any other tool (all sizes and types of project).