Veritas carbide scraper burnisher

[Odie]

Veritas carbide scraper burnisher

Just wondering if anyone is using this little device to improve the burr on their scrapers.....?

I probably haven't touched mine since last century. (!)

If this thing works, I'm probably not doing it right......does it work for you?

If so, then I'm probably not the only one who would appreciate a little advice on it's proper use.

ooc

I took the photo directly from the csusa online catalog, but mine is the exact same item......

 

[Ed Koenig]

I've owned it for many years and it does work. However I prefer to put a burr on my scrapers with my Tormek.

It's very simple to use. Either screw it to a bench or mount it in a vise. Then use one peg to pivot the scraper against the other peg to push up a burr.

 

[Jim Killen]

I use it to restore the burr two or three times before going back to the grinder..........saves metal on the scraper blade.

 

[Clifton C]

Burnisher

Odie,
I have used a burnisher like the one in your picture to show the owner how I would use it. He had given up. Seems he was using way to much pressure to turn the burr. The method I used was a fresh off the grinder scraper, grinder burr honed off with a fine diamond hone held flat to top of scraper, then a light touch to the burnisher. This produced a fine, sharp burr that lasted more than a few seconds and made whisper thin shavings (from end grain), allowing us to start sanding with 400 grit sandpaper. Watch out for the pivot pin as it gives the ability to apply a lot of pressure and turn a fairly large hook. The super hook he had turned sort of worked, but was too grabby (aggressive) for what we were trying to achieve. I like a hand held burnisher, reason being is that when the edge stops cutting I can burnish the edge down, then back up for another fresh edge, kind of how a cabinet maker sharpens a cabinet scraper. A few burnishings and then back to the grinder to freshen the edge, hone the top, burnish, and then back to the lathe. I use a burnished scraper mostly for finishing cuts although I’m sure a heavy hook could be used for roughing. Curious to see who else is ticketing an edge.

clifton

 

[john lucas]

I've looked at them for years and even thought about building one but my diamond hones work just fine. I find that different tools need different ways to make a good burr. My Sorby flat scraper works great using the medium diamond hone from E-Z lapp. My homemade scraper works better straight off the grinder. My John Jordan shear scraper works better with his ceramic hone. His ceramic hone which actually feels too fine to work is really good at raising a burr on his tool. It also works good on my big Henry Taylor curved scraper.

 

[Nate Hawkes]

Odie,
I have used a burnisher like the one in your picture to show the owner how I would use it. He had given up. Seems he was using way to much pressure to turn the burr. The method I used was a fresh off the grinder scraper, grinder burr honed off with a fine diamond hone held flat to top of scraper, then a light touch to the burnisher. This produced a fine, sharp burr that lasted more than a few seconds and made whisper thin shavings (from end grain), allowing us to start sanding with 400 grit sandpaper. Watch out for the pivot pin as it gives the ability to apply a lot of pressure and turn a fairly large hook.....

I use about the same procedure with mine-- I find that honing off the first burr from the grinder makes the raised burr cut so much more cleanly! I also use this pretty much just for finish cuts or making fine adjustments to a curve. That big hooked burr can definitely catch in a hurry if you let the tip down too much.

 

[Wayne Spence]

Scraper burnisher

I would support what has been said by Clifton and others. Too much pressure will give you a hook and danger of a catch. Also, honing off the burr created by grinding will render a nice fine burr with the burnisher. I have never used the Veritas burnisher but from the looks of it a lot of pressure could be put on the edge, something to avoid.

As a sidenote , the late cabinetmaker Jim Krenov used a cabinet scraper, no sanding, for some of his pieces. I have seen some of these pieces (small wall cabinets) that he gave to students and they have a tactile quality unlike any other finish.

 

[Odie]

OK, thanks for the replies.

The Veritas is stuck away in a drawer right now. I took it off the wooden mount and used the mount for something else. I'll probably give it a try again.....

I suspect I may have been using too much pressure when last I used it.....and, it seems to me I did not hone off the burr from the grinder.

......so, there are now a couple of things for me to concentrate on when I set it up again.

Thanks to all who responded......you, as usual, have kick-started my thinking on this.....and, you all didn't disappoint.....

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

Most of the time I just use the bur from the grinder. I don't have the Veritas burnisher. I tried to put a burr on with a round burnisher that I use on my card scrapers, and couldn't do it, no matter how much pressure I use, and I can exert a lot of pressure (I am not quite as big as Bill Grumbine). I can put a burr on with a triangle burnisher. The burnished edge is great for finish shear cuts with a scraper, but not as good for hogging off material. It also does a better job of shear finish cuts on harder woods than a grinder burr does, but on softer woods there doesn't seem to be as much of a difference, but still a slight edge to the burnished edge. It does take more time to grind the face of a scraper that has a burnished burr on it.

robo hippy

 

[Clifton C]

Robo, I think you’re right about the grinder burr for roughing and a burnished burr for finish cuts. Both burrs have their place, as in 80 grit vs. 400 grit. As for how much pressure to apply? I turn my little burr using about half the force of a good handshake, so to freshen the edge on the grinder takes about two swipes. Fine shavings off hardwoods and a mud like slurry from wet.

cc

 

[Wayne Spence]

Odie

This would be a great time to use your new microscope. Burnisher edge vs ground edge.

 

[MichaelMouse]

No need. Your thumbnail can tell you all you need to know about coarse and breakaway versus fine and lasting "burr(s)".

It'll also give you a good hint on the best presentation angle, too. So shave a bit of cuticle in the interests of science tonight.

 

[Odie]

This would be a great time to use your new microscope. Burnisher edge vs ground edge.

Yes, it certainly would!

No need. Your thumbnail can tell you all you need to know about coarse and breakaway versus fine and lasting "burr(s)".

It'll also give you a good hint on the best presentation angle, too. So shave a bit of cuticle in the interests of science tonight.

You might reconsider the usefulness of the microscope, MM......it's already proven to be of great benefit to me. This is not to downplay your other suggestion......whatever works!

ooc

I've got a few minutes right now.......so, I'm going out to the shop and remount that Veritas........

Bank robber: "I just gots to know".

Dirty Harry: "click"!

Heh,heh,heh!

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Yep, I could go look up the micrographs of scraper burrs in my magazines again, if I want to see what the thumbnail tells me. Or are you planning on posting some?

 

[Jeremy Williams]

Good info here. I have one of these burnishers, and never sure if I'm doing it right. I get a burr ... but too much or too little, dunno.

Here's a stupid question ... but I've head it both ways and just don't know what is "right". When using the Veritas burnisher, do you place the scraper face-down or face-up?

 

[Odie]

Good info here. I have one of these burnishers, and never sure if I'm doing it right. I get a burr ... but too much or too little, dunno.

Here's a stupid question ... but I've head it both ways and just don't know what is "right". When using the Veritas burnisher, do you place the scraper face-down or face-up?

That's a question I've never considered, but I'd have to say scraper face up......otherwise, you'd be sliding the burr across the face of the Veritas body. Anyway, I've always used it scraper face up, as in the photo. (I've learned to not trust photos in a catalog, though. Often times they demonstrate the wrong way to do something. This is because the photographer, or assistant has absolutely no idea what's the correct use, or application! :mad: )

......but, then again.....there are those semi circular grooves in the Veritas body. They really don't make much sense to me as to their purpose. If the scraper were used face down, those grooves appear to be close, but not quite positioned correctly for face down burnishing.......

Anybody have an idea about those grooves, and their purpose????

ooc

 

[Odie]

Yep, I could go look up the micrographs of scraper burrs in my magazines again, if I want to see what the thumbnail tells me. Or are you planning on posting some?

I don't have capability to post magnified images, MM......

If I could, I would......

ooc

 

[Dave Moore]

grooves

I would think the grooves help by reducing the surface area contact, giving an easier slide, and also give small pieces of debris somewhere to go out of the way.
I use one of these widgets for raising a finishing burr.
I began to get better results when I used a lighter touch and more passes. Three or four.
And using a tiny bit of light oil on the burnishing post helps too, I think it gives a smoother burr.

 

[Jeremy Williams]

Well, this graphic pretty much answers my question I suppose ...

 

[Odie]

Well, this graphic pretty much answers my question I suppose ...
View attachment 3454

Yep, that it does, JW......thanks

ooc

 

[Vince Welch]

Scraper Honing

Hi Odie,
In my veiw, honing should be fast easy and efficient not beng a distraction from the work peice on the lathe. I have not used the Veritas burishers you have described but have seen it advertised. I am sold on the DMT sharpening stones! I simply place a small peice of plexiglass with a DMT non skid matt right on my lathe bed ways down by my tail stock. On the non skid matt I have a double sided DMT honing stone with a fine( 600 grit) and extra fine(1200) surface. In fact, DMT just came out with a product called the WAVE allowing you to hone your gouges. OMG... It is great! Let me know and I will send you a pic of my set up. I am so impressed and being a DMT distributor I just got the products in and am carry DMT products on my site. Anyways, they are fast, efficient, and I do not have to move away from my work piece to hone. Regardless of how you get the job done honing removes less material then sharpening meaning your tools can last longer. Learning to sharpen your tools and hone exactly the way you want is a skill that will last all of your turning career. Vince

 

[MichaelMouse]

Those fans of the Hunter and similar tools will no doubt recognize whence they came. It's from a burnished scraper. Cuts and rolls the shaving same-o.

 

[Odie]

Although I have made several attempts at using the Veritas burnisher again.....my results have been the same as before. I'm not seeing any improvement over the burr. It may be a "finer" burr, but it's very small and doesn't last at all.......

Just because I see things as I do, this doesn't mean someone else may have found better success with it than I do.

Some of my scrapers are 1/2" thick, and the carbide stud is too short to do those at all......however, all the scrapers that are normal thickness will be the right size for the Veritas. The maximum thickness is probably around 3/8" thick.......which should cover 99% of the scrapers out there.......

I remounted the Veritas burnisher so that it will slip into the slot between the bedways.....easy on, and easy off!

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I did see some one who had thick scrapers and burnished them on the Veritas burnisher by putting them on up side down, because they wouldn't burnish right side up.

Been playing with burrs some more, lighter and heavy again, The light burr works nice, but very short life. A heavier burr works nice as well, and lasts longer. This could just appear to last longer, as I have them ground with a swept back design. and use the whole profile. More experimenting ahead....

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

I did see some one who had thick scrapers and burnished them on the Veritas burnisher by putting them on up side down, because they wouldn't burnish right side up.

Been playing with burrs some more, lighter and heavy again, The light burr works nice, but very short life. A heavier burr works nice as well, and lasts longer. This could just appear to last longer, as I have them ground with a swept back design. and use the whole profile. More experimenting ahead....

robo hippy

Hi Robo Hippy......

Perhaps if I ever manage to be successful with the Veritas for average thickness of scrapers, I'll try that with the 1/2" scrapers. It is a good solution.

Be sure to let us know your findings, as your own experiments bear some productive results.

ooc

 

[fgvanatta]

The burnisher seems like it is way overpriced, so I made my own from a 2 x 4 and some pieces of drill rod. I also read that the angle makes a difference on how the scraper cuts, so I provided for 3 different angles. Works great on any size scraper.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I did see some one who had thick scrapers and burnished them on the Veritas burnisher by putting them on up side down, because they wouldn't burnish right side up.

Been playing with burrs some more, lighter and heavy again, The light burr works nice, but very short life. A heavier burr works nice as well, and lasts longer. This could just appear to last longer, as I have them ground with a swept back design. and use the whole profile. More experimenting ahead....

robo hippy

The people who do scraping in the other world where things are flat know that the angle of the turned edge determines whether it is a chip and glue breaker or a shave maker. The weakness of the fixed angle burnisher-to-base configuration is that it doesn't allow you to use this phenomenon to your advantage. I really love my Veritas dial-an-angle burnisher when preparing cabinet scrapers.

Durability of even a finely turned edge will certainly improve if it is employed on wood spinning slowly. Less energy will be available to take advantage of any discontinuity or weakness in the prepared edge.

 

[robo hippy]

I am not sure, but would think that the angle of the burr would be determined as much by how much pressure you are putting on the burnisher as by what angle you are applying the burnisher to the tool. More pressure will make the burr curl more, which will change the angle you have to present the tool to the wood so that it will cut. If I burnish a heavy burr on my small scraper, I can't 'ride the bevel 'cut across the bottom of the bowl, but with a grinder burr, or if it is honed to no burr, or a very light burnished burr, I can ride the bevel across the bottom of the bowl (75 or so degree bevel angle). Same with a card scraper. Heavy burr, you have to have the card scraper at more of a vertical angle (say 20 to 30 degrees, instead of 10 to 15) to get it to cut. The change in the angle for the finer cut comes more from having the card at a skewed angle to the stroke, rather than square, kind of like the difference between a scraping cut and a shear cut in turning.

robo hippy

 

[Jon Murphy]

Long delayed comment on an old thread

When I first got my Veritas burnisher a few years ago I had some problems with using the tools I burnished on it. I was approaching the wood at the same angle as I did with my scrapers that I had hand burnished. I'll not address the burr straight off the grinder, that is always going to vary, I'll just speak of the hand burnish versus the Veritas device.

The hand burnish gives you a back hook, if you do it with the reverse angle most experts recommend. That means you have to angle the tool down to get the clean scrape. A tool burnished with the Veritas jig doesn't have that back hook, the burr is less than 90 dgs. to the horizontal. The advantage to the jig is a consistent burr angle to the bevel of the tool as well as a consistent burr angle to the horizontal of the tool. The problem that arises for new users who have worked with either hand burnished tools or "off the grinder burrs" is that one tends to angle the tool down by habit - and that makes the scraper a "grabber" with the 75 or 80 dg. to horizontal burr from the jig.

It is explained in the instructions, but like almost everyone else I don't read instructions. I had to email Lee Valley to ask about my problem, and they were kind enough to not point out that I should have read the instructions and realized I had to present to the wood at a different angle. I like the jig for the consistency of the burr, just had to change my old habits in presenting the tool to the wood. I grind my scraper bevels to 75 dgs. and (with a "chin" bevel of 45 dgs so I can refresh the bevel face with a quick pass on the grinder). Using either "post" (the 5 or 10 dg.) can orient the tool to the wood by riding the bevel and then dropping the tip until I get the scrape cut I want.

 

[Fred Belknap]

Jon I pretty much have the same experience you have with the Veritas burnisher. I now use it most of the time for finish cuts on bowls both inside and outside. I have CBN grinding wheels and don't usually take off the bur from the grinder, just a couple light swipes on the burnisher.

 

[Robert Elliott]

good for young people

I have veen using it since it was introdused. I first saw it in Toronto Canada and remembered something the demonstrator said. "It is a perfect tool for young kids to use between adult sharpening on power grinders" . I have had one on every kid's lathe bedways since. Young turners (8-13 in my opinion) should not use a grinder. I start kids out using scrapers on pre-rounded stock to to elevate some fears from parents. The most important function of the reg is to teach the need of a sharp tool from the beginning.

Does it work well... For the purpose of engraining the need to have a sharp tool. Yes!
For creating a good bur, I think it depends on the tool steel (quality).

 

[Odie]

Update:

At this point, I've abandoned using my Veritas burnisher......again! I never did see any worthwhile improvement in the results. I am, however, fine tuning my scraper burrs by varying pressure and sweep speed of the scraper as it's being ground on a Norton SG grinding wheel (expensive, but worth it). Heat will kill the temper on a very thin burr, so I also keep a tub of water near the grinder. Note: It has occurred to me that the Veritas carbide burnisher probably did a much better job of shaping a burr back in the days of carbon steel lathe tools.

I've made a lot of improvements to my scraper preparation and techniques since first starting this thread. One thing that helps immensely, is to polish the bottom corners on the scraper at the point where it slides on the tool rest for a shear cut. The top surface of the tool rest is also polished to a near mirror finish. This is done on a 3M deburring wheel. If the scraper slides easily, it is capable of doing a much better job. The 3M wheel is mounted to a home-made floor stand/motor, and is used to touch up the bottom corners of my scrapers nearly every time I re-new the burr on the grinder.

Even if everything about the burr is perfect, and it slides effortlessly on two polished surfaces between the scraper and tool rest......none of this is a "silver bullet" for achieving the best possible surface prior to sanding. It requires the human element to be refined to the same high degree of refinement for all the elements to be in harmony.

If anyone is interested in more information regarding the 3M deburring wheel, here is another previous thread:
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/sho...on-the-tool-rest&highlight=slide+on+tool+rest



ooc