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Vicmarc VM120, 150 Screws Problems

Emiliano Achaval

Emiliano Achaval

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
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Location
Maui, Hawaii
Website
hawaiiankoaturner.com
We had a discussion a while back about the screws getting stuck. I hosted seven days of classes at my studio. We had to change jaws several times. One of my VM 120's was tough to get the screws out. Hard. I had the ones that come with the chuck, Allen head screws. I forgot who; please let me know who, if you read this, sent me Torx head screws. Before I used them, I applied anti-seize grease. Working on another chuck that I had already applied anti-seize, every single screw was stuck tight. I could not believe it. So, upon further review, by a group of serious turners, we realized that the threads were nice and shiny, no rust. The countersink area was rusty, as well as the screw part that fits in there. So, from now on, I will be applying antisize also to the countersink. I ordered more Torx screws. However, Stuart Batty, that knows a lot about steels, told me the Torx screws are not as strong as the allen head ones. SO far I have not had a jaw fly out of the chuck.
 
I would suggest getting screws made to the same high-hardness specification as the original because the angle of the head is critical. The countersink angle on the jaws is slightly less than the taper angle of the screw head so that it will friction lock. That is the reason for the snap to break the screw loose. I highly recommend using Permatex copper grease sparingly on the screws to prevent rusting and seizing.

Did you mean to post this in the beta testers search forum?
 
Bill Boehme said:
I would suggest getting screws made to the same high-hardness specification as the original because the angle of the head is critical. The countersink angle on the jaws is slightly less than the taper angle of the screw head so that it will friction lock. That is the reason for the snap to break the screw loose. I highly recommend using Permatex copper grease sparingly on the screws to prevent rusting and seizing.
Click to expand...
Trying to find the right screws, with a Torx head was, is hard enough. Then McMaster wants $50 shipping for a bag of 24 screws. So I had to go to Amazon. It will take an engineer to find a better screw. I'm a little worried about the ones I have now after Stuart's comment that they are not the same strength as the original ones. I probably stripped half or more of the originals removing the jaws. It was a good reminder as to why I have so many chucks, I hate to change jaws. If anybody finds high strength Torx M6 12mm screws, please post the link here. @Bill Boehme I have to see what I bought, it is a little tube I bought at NAPA, the auto parts store. I will buy the Permatex if I did not buy that.
 
The copper grease is what Oneway uses. Some newbies think that the screws are rusty when they see the color of the copper grease. You can get the screws from Vicmarc and I would guess that the shipping is less. If you search online, the brand that you need is Unbrako. If I can find them locally I could put them in a padded envelope or a flat rate box and I wouldn't charge you $50. ;)
 
Bill Boehme said:
The copper grease is what Oneway uses. Some newbies think that the screws are rusty when they see the color of the copper grease. You can get the screws from Vicmarc and I would guess that the shipping is less. If you search online, the brand that you need is Unbrako. If I can find them locally I could put them in a padded envelope or a flat rate box and I wouldn't charge you $50. ;)
Click to expand...
I have ordered them before from Las Vegas. But, I was offered the Torx head, and I really like those. I have a designated little wrench now with a Torx bit. I'm thinking that if I start using the right Permatex, I just ordered a tube, I won't need any heroics and I could go back to the original screws from Vicmarc, with Allen's head. It is just so aggravating when you want to change jaws and none of the screws want to budge at all. Then you start striping them. I bought a set of punches, I was hitting them hard, that helped loosen some. On another note, I'm loving my new 85mm set of Jaws. They are the in-between set of the standard 48 mm and the 105mm. Stuart told me about that size. Maybe I should start another thread about it. They are just perfect.
 
What is the thread pitch? Fastenal has M6-1.0 x 12mm DIN 7991 Hex Drive Class 10.9 Black Oxide Finish Alloy Steel Flat Socket Cap Screws priced $3.50 for a package of 5 screws. BTW, socket head means hex key (AKA, Allen socket). Class 10.9 is the metric equivalent of grade 8.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Fastenal has several locations in Hawaii.
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I just ordered another chuck...(I have a problem;)) I have the manual in the shop. Tomorrow I'll look for the exact size. We do have a Fastenal in town!! That would be the best solution, the right screws, right here in town!!
 
I think that you need a new Allen wrench and the anti-seize might be causing the screws to be over-torqued. Normally, screws aren't supposed to be lubricated. Anti-seize is used on spark plugs. That's the only place that I have used it, but I'm just a shade tree mechanic so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Buying another chuck ... that sounds like what I would do. I don't see any problem there

Gotta go to bed. The only reason that I'm up is that some severe weather is going on, but I think that it is just about over.
 
I use anti-seize on wheel lug nuts/studs....

Maybe we should be using a torque wrench when tightening the screws that hold jaws onto chucks?
 
Use torx head screws, of the correct strength spec, and whatever anti- sieze, if it makes you feel better, but the root cause of the problem is over- torquing the screws. As @Bill Boehme pointed out the screw head angle and the countersink in the jaws are slightly different to provide a lock. All the screws need is a bit of a snug once contact is made, as in a few inch pounds of torque.

I degrease all my jaw screws, including Oneway anti-sieze, and use paste wax on all jaws and screws and screw holes. No dust accumulation and no issues with stuck or loose screws.
 
Adding to what’s been said; the screws should be clean, a touch of light machine oil if surface rust is present. No anti-seize. That’s best for heavier items that might stay together for years.
over tightening is the issue. I use a t-handle Allen wrench, using ONLY tip of thumb and one finger tip. Really—screw touching and then just a bit of snugging is all it takes.
When you have a stuck screw, instead of applying steady torque, use an impact tool. It will deliver the opposite ‘snap’—a shock that will unstick the screw. Less stress to the screw head while delivering more torque to the threads. An impact screwdriver will do the trick. Otherwise, as long as you have a light touch on the trigger, a cordless impact driver works fine too.
 
Marc Banka said:
Adding to what’s been said; the screws should be clean, a touch of light machine oil if surface rust is present. No anti-seize. That’s best for heavier items that might stay together for years.
over tightening is the issue. I use a t-handle Allen wrench, using ONLY tip of thumb and one finger tip. Really—screw touching and then just a bit of snugging is all it takes.
When you have a stuck screw, instead of applying steady torque, use an impact tool. It will deliver the opposite ‘snap’—a shock that will unstick the screw. Less stress to the screw head while delivering more torque to the threads. An impact screwdriver will do the trick. Otherwise, as long as you have a light touch on the trigger, a cordless impact driver works fine too.
Click to expand...
I’m definitely over-tightening! Thanks for the tip.
 
Timothy Allen said:
I use anti-seize on wheel lug nuts/studs....

Maybe we should be using a torque wrench when tightening the screws that hold jaws onto chucks?
Click to expand...
That sounds like the t handle wrench that came with my Taylor made driver to remove the head from the shaft. You cant overtighten with it once the torque gets high enough the mechanism in the wrench starts skipping.
 
It's always been my experience that if I put antisieze on the threads, it works it way up and gets on the taper. Try using a cordless impact driver for removal. The hammering shock breaks them loose much easier than a steady force.
 
Bill Boehme said:
I think that you need a new Allen wrench and the anti-seize might be causing the screws to be over-torqued. Normally, screws aren't supposed to be lubricated. Anti-seize is used on spark plugs. That's the only place that I have used it, but I'm just a shade tree mechanic so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Buying another chuck ... that sounds like what I would do. I don't see any problem there

Gotta go to bed. The only reason that I'm up is that some severe weather is going on, but I think that it is just about over.
Click to expand...
I have a history which includes doing armorer work. The thing I was taught about the torque/impact load placed on critical screws in a firearm is that we were NOT to use Loc-Tite or similar as they can create a false torque reading. They act as a lubricant while wet, and - you could easily apply MORE than the intend/appropriate torque to said screws. I suspect the same issue with anti-sieze compounds.
The product I use in applications where I want to prevent corrosion, not over-torque, and prevent loosening is Vibra-Tite VC-3. It is available from Amazon. This material is "stringy", and almost makes one think of a contact cement. But - it sets up as a resilient rubbery/plastic. Screws will not back out even if not torqued up to spec. - but can be removed without excessive force. And - it need not be re-applied with each remove and re-install cycle. I have dis-assembled firearms 3 times and re-assembled them without additional application of VC-3 with no screws loosening or tightening on their own after 1000s ofrounds of fire.
So - I think it will do what Emiliano is looking for, without any real drawbacks. I do recommend buying it in the small squeeze tubes to keep it fresh and neat. But if purchased in the jar with a brush applicator - a little acetone can be added should it thicken due to evaporation.
Hope this helps!
T
 
I know your pain, but no longer share it. I switched to the Axminister chucks. With Axminister you buy a set of jaw slides and to change you only need to remove the cap screw on the bottom of jaw 4 Then you crankk out one set and crank in a new set replacing the stop screw in jaw 4. Never have to take the jaws off the slides. Also you need less chucks.
 
William Rogers said:
I know your pain, but no longer share it. I switched to the Axminister chucks. With Axminister you buy a set of jaw slides and to change you only need to remove the cap screw on the bottom of jaw 4 Then you crankk out one set and crank in a new set replacing the stop screw in jaw 4. Never have to take the jaws off the slides. Also you need less chucks.
Click to expand...
Interesting William But...for those of us with a substantial investment in Vicmarc - which is a time proven quality chuck....It would be hard to switch. One must keep 1 good kidney for as long as one wishes to breathe air and filter bourbon....
 
Tim Tucker said:
Interesting William But...for those of us with a substantial investment of doubt in Vicmarc - which is a time proven quality chuck....It would be hard to switch. One must keep 1 good kidney for as long as one wishes to breathe air and filter bourbon....
Click to expand...
No doubt. At one time I had 10 chucks because I didn’t want to change jaws. I sold all of them and now have 4 chucks and I have the O’Donnell jaws that I use a lot. What isn’t expensive it is “hobby”?
 
William Rogers said:
No doubt. At one time I had 10 chucks because I didn’t want to change jaws. I sold all of them and now have 4 chucks and I have the O’Donnell jaws that I use a lot. What isn’t expensive it is “hobby”?
Click to expand...
Glad that has worked well for you. I can't see having too many chucks as a problem. I like to leave them on a piece once chucked - until the piece is remounted to finish. So, I have them all tied up all of the time - but I don't have to search for "the right one" as for jaw size. It is on the piece of wood....Nor do I need to change jaws.
 
Well I do keep some pieces on the chuck, but the most I have had is 3 and I have a spare. Jaws are much cheaper than chucks including the slides. Much easier to store jaws than chucks. Works very well for me.
 
Tim Tucker said:
. One must keep 1 good kidney for as long as one wishes to breathe air and filter bourbon....
Click to expand...
Tim, you made me laugh. I had a kidney removed two years ago. We are going on a hike in Scotland in the spring, and looking forward to a chance to learn the fine points of scotch whisky. Does that count?
 
Lou Jacobs said:
Tim, you made me laugh. I had a kidney removed two years ago. We are going on a hike in Scotland in the spring, and looking forward to a chance to learn the fine points of scotch whisky. Does that count?
Click to expand...
Sounds like are an ideal candidate for the W.F.S. (Whisky Filtrants Society)
I am Jack Daniels Squire. But in truth...my favorite KY Bourbon is Woodford Reserve - Double Oaked. Among the Scots Whiskys...the are many and I vacillate between the Highland and the Speyside - mood and food dependent. I hope you have a great time in Scotland. For some interesting reads on Scotland - you may want to subscribe to Scotland Now - it is an e-mail of all kinds of stuffs. Even teaches you some slang in current Scots. Not Gaelic...just - "lingo".
 
Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll look for Scotland Now.sounds perfect.
Sorry everyone for the diversion from this thread!
 
Recently in the process of rehabbing a radial arm saw, I had a similar problem. The allen screws were so tight I twisted the allen wrench into a cork screw. Solution. Soaked them in pbblaster for 24 hrs and then used my Milwaukee impact gun and they came right out.
 
Tim Tucker said:
I have a history which includes doing armorer work. The thing I was taught about the torque/impact load placed on critical screws in a firearm is that we were NOT to use Loc-Tite or similar as they can create a false torque reading. They act as a lubricant while wet, and - you could easily apply MORE than the intend/appropriate torque to said screws. I suspect the same issue with anti-sieze compounds.
The product I use in applications where I want to prevent corrosion, not over-torque, and prevent loosening is Vibra-Tite VC-3. It is available from Amazon. This material is "stringy", and almost makes one think of a contact cement. But - it sets up as a resilient rubbery/plastic. Screws will not back out even if not torqued up to spec. - but can be removed without excessive force. And - it need not be re-applied with each remove and re-install cycle. I have dis-assembled firearms 3 times and re-assembled them without additional application of VC-3 with no screws loosening or tightening on their own after 1000s ofrounds of fire.
So - I think it will do what Emiliano is looking for, without any real drawbacks. I do recommend buying it in the small squeeze tubes to keep it fresh and neat. But if purchased in the jar with a brush applicator - a little acetone can be added should it thicken due to evaporation.
Hope this helps!
T
Click to expand...
Big help! Sounds like we have a winner! Thank you.
 
Tim Tucker said:
Interesting William But...for those of us with a substantial investment in Vicmarc - which is a time proven quality chuck....It would be hard to switch. One must keep 1 good kidney for as long as one wishes to breathe air and filter bourbon....
Click to expand...
I will never sell any of my Vicmarc chucks, in fact, I keep buying them, LOL
 
While there are many choices, Lagavulin is head and shoulders above the rest.

Touring distilleries in Scotland is a great way to get to parts of the country you might not otherwise visit. My bible is the "Guide to Real Ale", I can't tell you how many wonderful places we've discovered by chasing down an obscure pub. If places care about their beer the food is almost invariably good as well. Boy, I can't wait to get back to the UK!
 
Emiliano, it isn't necessary to put anything on the screw threads ... in fact, it is far better to have all of the threaded parts completely clean and dry. I would remove the base jaws from the chuck and then soak them and the screws in Varsol or naphtha or equivalent solvent to remove all of the stuff from the screws and the threaded holes in the base jaws. Q-tips are good for cleaning the threaded holes. Next, give the screws and base jaws a second wash in clean solvent. Dry the parts and reassemble everything, using gentle torque on the screws as described by @Marc Banka in post #13.
 
Only have 1 stronghold oneway....take screws out at end of day.....
 
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