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What center works best?

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I recently turned a couple of small bowls using a spur center rather than a chuck/woodworm screw (which my usual way of roughing out the outside shape). One bowl was from a thinner blank which is why I tied the spur center. Both were oriented with the face grain rather than edge grain toward the top and bottom of the bowl. I had a problems with the spur center tearing out of the blank and ended up in both cases remounting with the wood worm screw.
I also own a Steb center (I think that is the correct name. )

Would the steb center work better? If not what is the likely cause of my tear out problem?
 

hockenbery

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Would the steb center work better? If not what is the likely cause of my tear out problem?
I use a spur drive for almost all my bowls and hollow forms.
I drive it in with a mallet to set the the teeth( spur drive need to be sharpened every 50. Pieces turned or every drop.
also i orient the spur blades at 45 degrees to the grain so that they all bite in evenly.
while turning the tailstock need to be checked for tightness. The drive centers will work themselves deeper into the wood as you cut. A 1/4 or 1/2 turn in t he tailstock after a few cuts.

when the spur drive gets a little bit loose it becomes a 4 bladed spade bit and drills a hole.

a spur drive is better for adjusting the grain patterns and the heights of natural Edge rims.

i would not use a steb drive for bowls. it Can work with mixed success.
learning to use a spur drive is a better course of action.
 
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Randy Anderson

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I use the stock issue spur drive that came with my lathe for all of my green wood first turns - big and small. Tighten up, turn a bit, check and tighten a bit more, turn a bit more and after a few times it's good and snug. Rarely but it does happen when it might slip and spin. I take it off the lathe, clean out the hole a bit and put back up.
 
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I start most of my bowl turnings with a spur drive (1.5" Texas Spur drive from Best Wood Tools). Lyle Jamieson teaches a technique that's very helpful for getting the drive to seat well and avoid turning into a drill bit later.

Once the blank is on the lathe and reasonably tight between centers, lock the headstock so it won't rotate. Then grab the blank at the bottom and pull it towards you (try to rotate it clockwise if you're looking at it from the tailstock end). It will probably rotate a little. Then crank your tailstock again to push the blank tighter against the spur drive. Repeat that process again and then you should be good to go.
 
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I start all bowls between centers with a 4 prong spur drive. For smaller bowls < 8-10” I use one that fits into the spindle taper. For larger pieces I like Nova’s jumbo drive center. It threads on the spindle vs going in the taper. As @Dave Bunge says, Lyle’s technique of rocking the blank and seating the spur works really well, and dont forget to get tightening the TS with wet wood.
 
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I may use any of the methods above at any given time depending on what the blank looks like.

When sizing up a blank for its grain orientation, I may use just the oneway safe drive center with its teammate the oneway live center on the tailstock. They both make the same impression on the wood. Additionally, The wood doesn't get marred as much and you can flip the blank around using the indentations made by either if you find the need. The safe drive holds well and never acts as a drill as do some 4 prong drive centers.

Like all things in woodturning, there is no one solution that is optimal in all situations.
 
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Thanks for all your suggestions. I spent some time on YouTube and I watched one video which demoed setting the spur in the blank by cranking up the tail stock, wiggling the blank to open the slots the spur has made in the wood, advancing the tailstock, and repeating this process till the spur is solidly imbedded in the blank. This worked very well for me and I haven't had any problems with keeping the spur buried in the blank since.
 
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I often spin out standard spur drives on green wood even when I think they are well seated. I have a One Way Big Bite that stays put, but it is not very easily shifted as the center pin needs a 1/4" hole drilled and I can tilt the blank on the center only along the wide spur axis. I find myself using an Elio drive more, especially for burls with uneven surfaces and for blanks where I expect to shift the centers for aligning the figure as desired. Elio drive

When I spent a day with Al Stirt recently he used a shop-made center somewhat like Lennart's for roughing out green blanks but with a wood plate and only two screws aligned with the long grain to balance the figure.
 
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After using the process I found online I have had no problems with a standard 4-spur center supported on the tailstock did. Then I don't usually turn any blanks that haven't at least been made approximately round first. While turning some greenwood I also have rarely turned a really green blank. Mine are at least somewhat dry first.
 
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Do the cup style drive centers even work with green wood? It seems like they'd be even worse than a Steb center, but reputable companies like Robust sell them for bowl turning. I'm looking for something to use for roughing green wood bowls, but after reading this thread, it still seems like there's not much that'll beat a 4 prong spur drive or a faceplate with pointy bolts sticking through it, especially if I want to be able to reposition the blank to balance the grain, etc.
 

Tom Gall

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Do the cup style drive centers even work with green wood? It seems like they'd be even worse than a Steb center, but reputable companies like Robust sell them for bowl turning. I'm looking for something to use for roughing green wood bowls, but after reading this thread, it still seems like there's not much that'll beat a 4 prong spur drive or a faceplate with pointy bolts sticking through it, especially if I want to be able to reposition the blank to balance the grain, etc.
Take a look at the Elio Safe Drive - available in 2 or 3 sizes. I bought the 2.5" one from the original maker more than 10 years ago. Now avaiIable with a drawbar. I would recommend you swap out the set screws and use hex head bolts so you can quickly adjust with a socked wrench.
 

hockenbery

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Do the cup style drive centers even work with green wood? It seems like they'd be even worse than a Steb center, but reputable companies like Robust sell them for bowl turning. I'm looking for something to use for roughing green wood bowls, but after reading this thread, it still seems like there's not much that'll beat a 4 prong spur drive or a faceplate with pointy bolts sticking through it, especially if I want to be able to reposition the blank to balance the grain, etc.
Yes- for small pieces. I use them for most spindles. Goblets, balls ….

no - for anything over say 10-20 pounds in weight

i use a 4 prong spur drive for most bowl and hollow form blanks
oneway big bite is pretty good too but I rarely use it.
 
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I haven't used a spur or stub center since I started using Robust Tool's cup center two years ago. Its the best center I've ever used. I've used it on small spindles and for turning the outside of bowls up to 15" in diameter. The only time I don't use it is if I use a faceplate or screw chuck, and that is usually if I do anything over 15" in diameter. I always check the tailstock and tighten if necessary.
 
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Do the cup style drive centers even work with green wood? It seems like they'd be even worse than a Steb center, but reputable companies like Robust sell them for bowl turning. I'm looking for something to use for roughing green wood bowls, but after reading this thread, it still seems like there's not much that'll beat a 4 prong spur drive or a faceplate with pointy bolts sticking through it, especially if I want to be able to reposition the blank to balance the grain, etc.
Someone mentioned Al Stirt's homemade drive with 2 sharpened bolts, in order to allow adjustment of the blank. Someone else (?Glen Lucas) developed one that uses more sharpened bolts (6, I think), which you can make. A couple of our club members have made them and they work well, and are super fast.
 
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Do the cup style drive centers even work with green wood? It seems like they'd be even worse than a Steb center, but reputable companies like Robust sell them for bowl turning. I'm looking for something to use for roughing green wood bowls, but after reading this thread, it still seems like there's not much that'll beat a 4 prong spur drive or a faceplate with pointy bolts sticking through it, especially if I want to be able to reposition the blank to balance the grain, etc.

The cup center works equally well on green wood as it does dry. If you have a turning club maybe you can inquire to see if any members have a cup center that you can try out.
 

Roger Wiegand

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I use the Robust cup/"safety" centers almost exclusively now. on bowls up to ~22" in diameter. I no longer even have a spur center, I sent mine on with my old lathe as they didn't fit the new one. I'd never use a spur drive on spindle work as driving wedges into end grain is the perfect recipe to split your blank and give you a face full of lumber. DAMHIK.

I used to routinely spin spur centers in bowl blanks, I think the cup is, counterintuitively, more secure. If you do spin it on a catch you just tighten down the tailstock a bit more and keep going. Before I got much more savvy about sharp tools and proper cutting techniques I used to drill holes in the blank with the spur center. Not pretty.

A steb center is the same idea but with less steel in contact with the wood, hence a less secure grab. Those teeth are little saw blades, not your friend for holding the work securely.

For gnarly, out of balance work where you can't work between centers nothing beats a faceplate with lots of screws.
 
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I decided to make my own faceplate-with-pointy-bolts drive. It made for a nice afternoon project. I figure I'll use it and see what configuration of pointy bolts works best for me. It's a little bigger than I probably need, but I used a faceplate ring for mounting it, so I needed the real estate.

SpikeDrive1.jpgSpikeDrive2.jpgSpikeDrive3.jpg
 

Tom Gall

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I decided to make my own faceplate-with-pointy-bolts drive. It made for a nice afternoon project. I figure I'll use it and see what configuration of pointy bolts works best for me. It's a little bigger than I probably need, but I used a faceplate ring for mounting it, so I needed the real estate.

View attachment 39658View attachment 39659View attachment 39660
Very nice work, Ric. Only problem I see is that you will need two tools (Allen wrench - PITA, and an open-end wrench) both of which may prove to be a little fiddly and time consuming. I don't believe you really need the nuts. Also, I think you will find that two pins will work just as well as three.
 
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Very nice work, Ric. Only problem I see is that you will need two tools (Allen wrench - PITA, and an open-end wrench) both of which may prove to be a little fiddly and time consuming. I don't believe you really need the nuts. Also, I think you will find that two pins will work just as well as three.
Yeah, I thought about the tool issue, but I don't think I'll need an Allen wrench to adjust the pins, just an open end wrench to loosen and re-tighten the nuts. I used those bolts because I figured the heads would be convenient to turn to adjust the pins. If I don't need the nuts to prevent the pins from creeping, I'll just leave them off. Originally I incorporated them to take the load off the aluminum threads, but I think 1/2" of threads in plenty for the load they'll be carrying. ! tend to overbuild stuff like this that involves a lot of empirical design and not much much engineering in calculating loads, etc. Just make it beefy enough to hold up to whatever I might throw at it, using parts and materials I have on hand. My philosophy is "Why buy something I can make myself at twice the price, half the quality, with no foundation in engineering and design standards whatsoever? What could go wrong?". In 68 years I haven't caused any permanent damage or disfigurement to myself. Honest, I've always looked like this. Bystanders can stand by at their own risk. :p
 

Tom Gall

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Yeah, I thought about the tool issue, but I don't think I'll need an Allen wrench to adjust the pins, just an open end wrench to loosen and re-tighten the nuts. I used those bolts because I figured the heads would be convenient to turn to adjust the pins. If I don't need the nuts to prevent the pins from creeping, I'll just leave them off. Originally I incorporated them to take the load off the aluminum threads, but I think 1/2" of threads in plenty for the load they'll be carrying. ! tend to overbuild stuff like this that involves a lot of empirical design and not much much engineering in calculating loads, etc. Just make it beefy enough to hold up to whatever I might throw at it, using parts and materials I have on hand. My philosophy is "Why buy something I can make myself at twice the price, half the quality, with no foundation in engineering and design standards whatsoever? What could go wrong?". In 68 years I haven't caused any permanent damage or disfigurement to myself. Honest, I've always looked like this. Bystanders can stand by at their own risk. :p
:):):) I like your sense of humor! You will need an Allen wrench. You have to drive the points into the wood and/or bark a little bit and at your age I don't think your fingers are strong enough.;) If you switch them out for hex head bolts you can use one of those reversible ratcheting wrenches. You probably won't have enough room for a socket wrench.
 
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My Elio drive has sharpened allen screws for drive spurs but getting a hex key in there ahead of the headstock is awkward, so I just use a pair of pliers. I considered swapping them out for hex heads and a box ratchet wrench but the current system works well enough and without locknuts.

I don't get how a cup center develops enough friction to keep a large blank rotating when roughing out with interrupted cuts. Clearly it works for some- I'll have to ask around the local turning club for a demonstration.
 
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My Elio drive has sharpened allen screws for drive spurs but getting a hex key in there ahead of the headstock is awkward, so I just use a pair of pliers. I considered swapping them out for hex heads and a box ratchet wrench but the current system works well enough and without locknuts.

I don't get how a cup center develops enough friction to keep a large blank rotating when roughing out with interrupted cuts. Clearly it works for some- I'll have to ask around the local turning club for a demonstration.
I have one - but don't use it anymore. It was fine when mounting a blank that was flat, de-barked and typically the kind one would find for sale from a supplier. If clean sawn or even planed wood is mounted - I think it is fine.
But - for many of us with an overabundance of local wood resources, the tendency is to mount pieces that are less processed, and may be off balance, have bark, etc....That is where I would offer caution with a cup drive. It cannot get as good a "bite" as one with 2 sharp, longer teeth, in pieces of wood that are not prepared blanks with 2 parallel sides which are reasonably smooth and bark free.

So, not knocking the cup center - just saying that I think it has a place. And that there are other styles of centers that will provide a margin of safety on un-even surfaces, especially with bark to penetrate thru.
 

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It's true, I do chisel or chain saw off a patch of bark to make a flat for the cup drive. Since I typically knock the corners off the blanks anyway I already have the saw running and it adds almost no time/effort to make a flat. On smaller pieces where I wouldn't bother with the corners I use a big mortise chisel and it only takes about four whacks to make the flat. I wouldn't use a cup set into bark. But then I wouldn't use a spur drive in bark either.
 
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Elio drive - I have a 2-1/2” I think. It works well but for one issue. When using for large heavy wet unbalanced pieces (up to ~15” for me), I became concerned that it was going to damage the spindle MT. I turned several dozen pieces with it. It shows some wear at the edge of the taper. Part of it was not maintaining enough TS pressure, but it appeared to continue to show some fretting type wear with firm TS pressure over a number of pieces. The Nova jumbo drive, which threads on the spindle, alleviates my concerns and doesnt show any concerning wear.
 

Dave Landers

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The pointy-bold drive that I made has 4 bolts. The reason is that the faceplate had 4 holes, and I didn't want to drill any others.
But 4 does work to line up the bolts around the curve of a natural edge piece - there's not one shortie like there would be with 3 bolts.
I hardly ever adjust the bolts. Which is good, because they're just headless studs with a lock nut (because that's what was in my junk bolt bin when I made it). I've got the center one set a bit longer so I can engage it first and get things lined up. I crank the tailstock till (most of) the others drive in, that seems to work for me. YMMV.
 
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I have 2 Elio drives (2 and 2.5) and they do work but I found them tedious to setup with blank. I will not repeat what has been said about 4 prong and other drives but had the same experiences. Finally found the Nova Jumbo with removable spurs. I removed 2 of the spurs and now it is my primary drive for anything over 4 inches. It is so easy to mount directly to headstock threads it just makes setup so simple.
 
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I haven't had any issues with the cup center on bark or uneven wood. As long as I have 50% contact its worked. I can't say why or how it works so well, just that it does. I take heavy cuts and I don't stall the wood between the cup center and live center. It is important to have sufficient pressure on the tailstock.
 
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I haven't had any issues with the cup center on bark or uneven wood. As long as I have 50% contact its worked. I can't say why or how it works so well, just that it does. I take heavy cuts and I don't stall the wood between the cup center and live center. It is important to have sufficient pressure on the tailstock.

Yes! It doesn't require great pressure to work well. Derek Weidman, who turns large pieces of green wood, mounted offcenter (often WAY offcenter), uses a cup drive center. One advantage is safety -- with a catch it will simply slip rather than stall the lathe and/or throw the blank off the lathe. My second choice is usually a steb center. I almost never use a 2- or 4-spur drive center.
 
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:):):) I like your sense of humor! You will need an Allen wrench. You have to drive the points into the wood and/or bark a little bit and at your age I don't think your fingers are strong enough.;) If you switch them out for hex head bolts you can use one of those reversible ratcheting wrenches. You probably won't have enough room for a socket wrench.
Good points (no pun intended), but there's plenty of room to get my fingers on the heads of the bolts. I figured on setting the heights of the pins before applying the maximum tail stock pressure, like I did with the lower bolt in this picture:SpikeDrive4.jpg
It'll be simple to change to hex head bolts if needed.

However, once again you humans underestimate the capabilities of other, more advanced, species:
SpikeDrive5.jpg SpikeDrive6.jpg

FYI, my right hand is metric, and dogs love it when I scratch them.
I don't play volley ball anymore.
:p:p:p
 
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