• May 2025 Turning Challenge: Long Neck Hollowform! (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Phil Hamel winner of the April 2025 Turning Challenge (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul Hedman and Donna Banfield for "Fire and Ice" being selected as Turning of the Week for 5 May, 2025 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

White oak

John Hicks

John Hicks

Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
695
Likes
973
Location
Shingletown CA
I got a few very large rounds of White oak about two months ago. I split the logs in half and sealed the ends and down the middle of the open face with two coats of titebond III. It has cracked everywhere! Each one is approx 18" across. I have never tried to dry oak of any kind. I always turned it green and sealed it the roughed out bowls. It almost ALWAYS cracks! The average humidity here in northern California is very low; so I'm wondering if that is the reason it cracks so badly? This one I did a lousy job with the chainsaw as I hit a stone while cutting and I butchered it.

IMG_4361.JPG
 
It looks like you were in or near a crotch as the piece looks quite a bit narrower at the bottom then the top. I wonder if that contributed to the cracking, as it could not relieve stress evenly. Perhaps a more symmetrical piece would have done better. Just a thought.
 
The ends of the logs will benefit the most when sealing the cut logs, the side grain does not lose moisture as much as the end grain.
 
Only had white oak a few times, and it did that, but I wasn't using log sealer. I do have 2 rounds of honey/moraine locust, the kind that doesn't have thorns, and it seemed to be very crack prone. Had some old titebond 2 and slathered that all over the end grain. They are holding up fine, but the weather has been cold and damp. Been getting hail and snow, and had a heavy frost yesterday...

robo hippy
 
Working through some white and red oak now from some trees that came down during a March ice storm. I typically avoid it for the same reason most experience - it often cracks as it dries. If I do decide to turn it I do it right away after cutting or seal for a few days until I can get to it and even then it will sometimes crack. I also try to stick to crotch pieces to at least get a chance at something unique if it survives. I have found that dormant season oak seems to crack less while drying and so far these pieces seem to be doing OK. That said, I've had them do fine in the drying process for quite a while after being turned and then boom - split wide open, or the bark separates from the rim in the last bit of drying.
 
I turn Oak and do not have problems with splitting anymore than with other wood, like it happens very seldom.

As I get the wood I will check it thoroughly and to make sure it has no splits to start off with, then rough turn it, and not letting it sit to split on me.

Stick the rough turned bowl in a brown paper bag and set it away in a cool place, check it maybe once or twice in the first week or so.

If I can not turn it right away, I will stick it in a plastic bag for a couple of days max.

these are some of the Oak bowls/platters that I have turned and choose the pictures that show the whole pieces clearly.

Oak bowl 1.jpg Oak bbowl 2.jpg Oak bowl 3.jpg Oak bowl.jpg Oak platter.jpg Oak plate.jpg
 
Charles Cadenhead said:
@Leo Van Der Loo, where do you get your paper bags from? I'm assuming you go through a lot of them? Do you reuse them? Thanks!
Click to expand...
I do have a few, and they get re-used until they wear out or rip, I get them at places that do use paper bags, where I live now, the grocery store has no plastic bags, only paper bags, I have also got them at the Kentucky fried chicken takeout, and other locations.

You only need as many as you rough turn bowls in a couple of weeks, as after that you can re-used them on the next ones.

drying in paper bags.jpg Bowls in brown paper bags.jpg
 
John,
With your location.....I suspect that what you have is Valley Oak. Valley Oak is a White Oak. But, Valley Oak does like to crack and twist.
That said.......I have turned a few items from Valley Oak and had them come out OK. One a hollow vessel that I turned while the wood was wet. Turned to about 1/4" thick. Dried slowly. it went oval on me, but not cracks.
I have also roughed out bowls from Valley Oak - sealed them......let them dry. They cracked and twisted so much, they became firewood.
The other day, I found a roughed out Valley Oak bowl I turned in 2008. I had boiled it. Sealed it after boiling. It came out to be a very nice bowl. Only three very small, shallow cracks that I filled with CA glue and dust.
Mike Mahoney cuts platter blanks from Valley Oak. Only uses quarter sawn pieces. The rest is firewood for him.
When I turn wet Oak......I seal it totally with Anchor Seal to slow the drying down. Or, I turn it to finish while wet and wet sand to 150 - 220 grit. Dry slowly. Hand sand when dry.
I like Black Oak much better than Valley Oak. It is much more civilized. Still likes to move and some cracking......but better controlled.
 
Consider rough turning then let dry for few hours before covering it all with 2 layers of PVA wood glue to slow down drying. If the wood is really prone to cracking then I might first boil the rough turning for 1 hour to relax some of the tension In the wood before sealing.
 
I think it was an arborist who told me there are 2 types of oak. White oak and red/black oak. The white oak varieties have rounded leaf lobes, and the red/black have pointed lobes. The red and black have long open pores as in split off a billet, put it in a bucket of water and you can blow bubbles out the water end. White oak is closed grain, and that is what they make wine and whiskey barrels out of.

robo hippy
 
Hugh said:
John,
With your location.....I suspect that what you have is Valley Oak. Valley Oak is a White Oak. But, Valley Oak does like to crack and twist.
That said.......I have turned a few items from Valley Oak and had them come out OK. One a hollow vessel that I turned while the wood was wet. Turned to about 1/4" thick. Dried slowly. it went oval on me, but not cracks.
I have also roughed out bowls from Valley Oak - sealed them......let them dry. They cracked and twisted so much, they became firewood.
The other day, I found a roughed out Valley Oak bowl I turned in 2008. I had boiled it. Sealed it after boiling. It came out to be a very nice bowl. Only three very small, shallow cracks that I filled with CA glue and dust.
Mike Mahoney cuts platter blanks from Valley Oak. Only uses quarter sawn pieces. The rest is firewood for him.
When I turn wet Oak......I seal it totally with Anchor Seal to slow the drying down. Or, I turn it to finish while wet and wet sand to 150 - 220 grit. Dry slowly. Hand sand when dry.
I like Black Oak much better than Valley Oak. It is much more civilized. Still likes to move and some cracking......but better controlled.
Click to expand...
Hugh, you say dried slowly, what do you do to dry it slowly, like Anchor seal it, and then ??, just set it on a shelf or what, inquiring minds like to know :).
 
robo hippy said:
I think it was an arborist who told me there are 2 types of oak. White oak and red/black oak. The white oak varieties have rounded leaf lobes, and the red/black have pointed lobes. The red and black have long open pores as in split off a billet, put it in a bucket of water and you can blow bubbles out the water end. White oak is closed grain, and that is what they make wine and whiskey barrels out of.

robo hippy
Click to expand...
You know Reed, both types of Oak have the same pores, only the White Oak has stuff in those pores (tyloses) see the pictures.

As for Wine/Wickey barrels, these are made with planks and not endgrain wood so the pores have not much to do with it.

Maybe more for what was always used, and there is no Red Oak natively in Europe, there grows only White Oak in Europe but for some planted Red here and there and considered a nuisance tree in some countries, and being removed by ringing cutting, rather than cut down.

Red Oak with open pores.jpg White Oak with tyloses in the pores.jpg
 
Leo,
Drying wood for everyone is a bit different, just due to location.
I use Anchor Seal on almost all my rough outs. But, then I usually try and keep the rough out on the floor of my shop in a place where it does not get a lot of air movement. I have a back room where I can place stuff on the floor. After some time, I move the bowl onto a shelf. Is it always successful.....no. I do get some cracks on some. Some people put the rough out in a paper bag, or card board box. Some may even have a kiln available. Different woods dry at different speeds. I have been doing this for a long time.....and I am still practicing .
 
I lucked into some white oak a couple of weeks ago and coated the ends of the logs with 2 coats of Titebond and not seeing any significant cracks yet. Keeping my fingers crossed. I've turned a couple of 6" diameter pieces so far, and even though it's quite wet, it still gives me a bit of a problem with the bowl gouge wanting to "buck" a bit against it. Same with dried white oak. I've not encountered that with other woods. Maybe oak just takes a lighter touch? I'm turning side grain with a 1/2" Crown PM gouge with an Ellsworth grind. I keep it quite sharp. Shearing cuts go fine with the gouge, long supported cuts on the outside of the bowl go pretty well with minor "bucking", but when hollowing the inside, that's when it's at it's worst. I'm trying to take no more than 1/8" deep cuts, working with cuts towards the center of the bowl. Sometimes I can lower the pressure I'm putting on the gouge and smooth out the cut and get better control. I'm riding the bevel one these cuts. Is this just characteristic of white oak, maybe because it's ring porous? Curious as to others experiences. I'll attach a photo of a 6" natural edge bowl I turned yesterday and dried overnight in silica gel. Finished it this afternoon. Thanks.
 

Attachments

  • PXL_20220417_204146955.jpg
    PXL_20220417_204146955.jpg
    638 KB · Views: 17
Lynn Dudenbostel said:
I lucked into some white oak a couple of weeks ago and coated the ends of the logs with 2 coats of Titebond and not seeing any significant cracks yet. Keeping my fingers crossed. I've turned a couple of 6" diameter pieces so far, and even though it's quite wet, it still gives me a bit of a problem with the bowl gouge wanting to "buck" a bit against it. Same with dried white oak. I've not encountered that with other woods. Maybe oak just takes a lighter touch? I'm turning side grain with a 1/2" Crown PM gouge with an Ellsworth grind. I keep it quite sharp. Shearing cuts go fine with the gouge, long supported cuts on the outside of the bowl go pretty well with minor "bucking", but when hollowing the inside, that's when it's at it's worst. I'm trying to take no more than 1/8" deep cuts, working with cuts towards the center of the bowl. Sometimes I can lower the pressure I'm putting on the gouge and smooth out the cut and get better control. I'm riding the bevel one these cuts. Is this just characteristic of white oak, maybe because it's ring porous? Curious as to others experiences. I'll attach a photo of a 6" natural edge bowl I turned yesterday and dried overnight in silica gel. Finished it this afternoon. Thanks.
Click to expand...
if, by the term "bucking", you mean that after you do one of those cuts, stop the lathe and feel the cut you just made, it feels bumpy/wavy , then A) your gouge is not sharp enough, and/or B) 1/8" cut is quite a deep cut relatively for a finish cut - I get the same thing with Ash , which is a very similar grain structure to oak, and have to re-sharpen much more often, and take lighter cuts (1/16" deep or less) if I want to get a good finish. You may also discover the same "wavy" result when sanding on the lathe if you spend too long on any given grit. Ash and Oak for two , seem to have different degrees of hardness between the growth rings and the wood around them..

I have found, if you even so much as think your gouge is not sharp enough, it probably isn't - it's helpful to first have the experience of what it feels like to have a truly sharp gouge in hand (typically if you get a hands-on mentor or demo) to judge how sharp you are getting your tools. (Something I learned rather quickly when I finally spent some bucks on a new plane blade for my No. 4 smoother, got mine from Hock, and they come sharp out of the box - first time I used it, I knew my so-called razor-sharp plane blades that I'd sharpened myself were no where near sharp!) - Once I figured that out, I took a lot more time at the grinder paying much more attention to my techniques (and later, after I got a 180 grit CBN, got even better results) to where I can finally have some confidence that I've gotten my gouges pretty durn sharp, and can feel the difference as soon as they start to get dull.

As far as the O.P. goes, I have seen the same thing with a piece of locust, and have had that same cracking happen on flat sawn oak lumber that I could have sworn was dry. (made a laminated handle of 2 pieces of that oak sandwiching a piece of cherry... took it into the house and the oak insisted on warping, pieces curled apart and literally ripped the cherry in half as the oak curled away from each other while it dried even further) - I think the main thing would be to try and stabilize the wood as much as possible by heavily sealing the end grain immediately after cutting off the ends (even if cracking isn't visible) which seemed to work for me on a couple pieces of Ash wood I was trying to preserve for later.
 
Brian Gustin said:
if, by the term "bucking", you mean that after you do one of those cuts, stop the lathe and feel the cut you just made, it feels bumpy/wavy , then A) your gouge is not sharp enough, and/or B) 1/8" cut is quite a deep cut relatively for a finish cut - I get the same thing with Ash , which is a very similar grain structure to oak, and have to re-sharpen much more often, and take lighter cuts (1/16" deep or less) if I want to get a good finish. You may also discover the same "wavy" result when sanding on the lathe if you spend too long on any given grit. Ash and Oak for two , seem to have different degrees of hardness between the growth rings and the wood around them..

I have found, if you even so much as think your gouge is not sharp enough, it probably isn't - it's helpful to first have the experience of what it feels like to have a truly sharp gouge in hand (typically if you get a hands-on mentor or demo) to judge how sharp you are getting your tools. (Something I learned rather quickly when I finally spent some bucks on a new plane blade for my No. 4 smoother, got mine from Hock, and they come sharp out of the box - first time I used it, I knew my so-called razor-sharp plane blades that I'd sharpened myself were no where near sharp!) - Once I figured that out, I took a lot more time at the grinder paying much more attention to my techniques (and later, after I got a 180 grit CBN, got even better results) to where I can finally have some confidence that I've gotten my gouges pretty durn sharp, and can feel the difference as soon as they start to get dull.

As far as the O.P. goes, I have seen the same thing with a piece of locust, and have had that same cracking happen on flat sawn oak lumber that I could have sworn was dry. (made a laminated handle of 2 pieces of that oak sandwiching a piece of cherry... took it into the house and the oak insisted on warping, pieces curled apart and literally ripped the cherry in half as the oak curled away from each other while it dried even further) - I think the main thing would be to try and stabilize the wood as much as possible by heavily sealing the end grain immediately after cutting off the ends (even if cracking isn't visible) which seemed to work for me on a couple pieces of Ash wood I was trying to preserve for later.
Click to expand...
By "bucking" I don't mean a bumpy cut, I'm referring to an oscillation that I'm feeling in the gouge during the cut. The 1/8" cut isn't a finish cut, it's a roughing cut. My finish cuts go fine.
My gouge is sharp. I've been a luthier for 33 years, full time for the last 25, so sharpening isn't new to me. I use a 600 grit CBN to touch up my lathe tools. I got the really fine wheel because I use it to sharpen some other cutting tools in my shop.
By the way, I know what you mean about Hock blades. I have a couple in Lie Nielsen planes. They are great. I get my old Stanley bench planes just as sharp, but they don't hold an edge near as long.
I do get a little bit of similar results ash, but not near as bad as white oak. That's what makes me think it's the grain structure. I turned some silver maple a couple of weeks ago and it was like a knife thru hot butter.
Thanks for you thoughts on this.
 
@Lynn: Ah I see; that, too, I do notice quite often when I am doing roughing cuts especially approaching the center of the bowl (after transition) hard to describe but feels like gouge wants to kick back out after hitting something hard - "feels like" ...

I still get that in several woods, only thing that seems to ease that is getting my tool rest as close to the cut as I can - changing speeds (to make center go faster for those cuts) didn't help, and no matter what shear angle or bevel riding I try, unless I am taking extremely light cuts , only thing that has helped that is putting my tool rest in close to the cut, and that gets awful awkward with straight tool rest.

I guess most turners likely would call it vibration, I suppose, instead of "bucking" but I think I understand what you mean now. Perhaps others might chime in on that, but it'd probably be best in its own thread, rather than hijacking this one and going off topic...
 
Thanks Brian. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. I thought since it was white oak related, it might be appropriate. I'll try your recommendations, but difficult to get the tool rest close on a live edge bowl. Maybe I need a curved tool rest.
 
You can get a lot of wobble in the rim of a larger bowl, so not much in an 8 to 10 inch bowl, but a considerable amount in a 12 inch bowl, especially with thinner walls, like 1/4 inch or so. I figure part of that wobble has to be because of grain orientation as the end grain will flex differently than the side grain while spinning, especially at high rpm. Drying out a bit can also contribute to this.

As for the transition area and across the bottom, the end grain comes around twice each revolution. Rather than cutting down through the end grain, you are essentially cutting straight in to it. As I say, going across the bottom, you are head butting the end grain each time it comes around. The head butting is made worse if you are pushing too hard. Learning to 'feel' the right amount of pressure to use for a finish cut is an art. I rough the bottoms of my bowls down to almost final thickness with scrapers, just easier to do.

robo hippy
 
I turned some more white oak this evening. I moved the rest in as close as I could, and took smaller cuts. That helped quite a bit. But the biggest improvement in controlling the tool came from increasing the speed. It is a 6 inch natural edge bowl. I usually turn that size at about 1000 to 1100 rpm. I cranked it up to 1300 and it was night and day difference, especially near the center. In the future, if I have similar problems, I'll try increasing the speed.
Back to the original post. I've had this wood a little over 2 weeks. I sealed it with 2 coats of Titebond, cut the pith out of a piece and brought the blanks I'm my shop where it's air conditioned/heated. No cracks or issues with them.
 
Lynn Dudenbostel said:
I turned some more white oak this evening. I moved the rest in as close as I could, and took smaller cuts. That helped quite a bit. But the biggest improvement in controlling the tool came from increasing the speed. It is a 6 inch natural edge bowl. I usually turn that size at about 1000 to 1100 rpm. I cranked it up to 1300 and it was night and day difference, especially near the center. In the future, if I have similar problems, I'll try increasing the speed.
Back to the original post. I've had this wood a little over 2 weeks. I sealed it with 2 coats of Titebond, cut the pith out of a piece and brought the blanks I'm my shop where it's air conditioned/heated. No cracks or issues with them.
Click to expand...
White oak is not ring porous, red oak is. There are many kinds of WO in the South. Live oak is the tough one and moves quite a lot. In turning a bowl from green wood the shape can be like a football once dry. Pin oak is easier to turn but still moves somewhat. You may be also experiencing wood movement which does happen as you turn and release tensions in the wood.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top