Replace spindle Jet 1014

[Dean Center]

I really stepped in it this time. On bottle stopper #67 of 70 I'm making for my son's wedding, tired and cranky, I wrecked 2 blanks with bad catches and on the last one, the lamp overhead fell down. When I went in this morning, I found the spindle is bent. Following the manual's instructions for changing the belt, I tried to remove the spindle. After removing the handwheel and getting all the set screws off, I'm supposed to 'pull spindle off, holding onto the pulley.' Nothing moves in an axial direction. It goes round and round just fine, but no movement in the desired direction. I had read here that a few sharp taps is a reasonable way to get things unstuck. Rapping with a wood mallet got the spindle out of the handwheel side bearing, but the pulley was still stuck. I added a little liquid wrench to the spindle inside the headstock, got the pulley carefully set in the inboard bearing and used a wood dowel to rap some more. Eventually it came unstuck.

The spindle has a ring of rough brown surface right where it would have been in the handwheel bearing. There is a little surface rust where the outboard end would contact the bearing. The aluminum pulley looks OK and the bearings look OK, but I'm concerned I may have done hidden damage.

Questions:
Should there be rust anywhere in there? (I live in an arid climate and never get water on the lathe, and don't even turn green wood on this one)
Could I have damaged the bearings or the pulley without seeing anything and when I replace the spindle, should I replace them as well? If so, where can I buy reliable bearings for less than the $20 and $29 Walter Meier wants for them? (6004VV and 6005VV bearings)

Thanks in advance for the help.

Dean Center

 

[Matt Lewis]

I had a little on mine the first time I changed bearings. Probably has something to do with being stored before the sell. As for bearings, Fastenal sells "Bearings Unlimited" replacement bearings for a few dollars - http://www.fastenal.com/web/Search.ex?action=productSearch&searchterm=6005+bearing.

Regards,

Matt

 

[john lucas]

If I read you correctly the pulley is not coming off the shaft. The problem is usually the burr left on the shaft by the set screw that is in the pulley. (I hope you removed the screw) If you haven't rotated the pulley on the shaft you can stick a drill bit that just barely big enough to get in the hole without messing up the threads. Then run the drill just enough to drill into the shaft to remove that burr. It takes very little.
Then push the spindle out toward the headstock and if the pulley still doesn't want to slide off use a short dowel to rap on the handwheel side. The pulley should be up against the housing of the headstock. This will usually knock the spindle out of the pulley.

 

[Bill Boehme]

From your description, it seems that there is a likelihood that the bearing races have been brinelled either before removing the spindle or in the process of getting the spindle out of the headstock. I find it rather hard to believe that the spindle of the Jet 1014 could be bent especially turning something as small as bottle stoppers. If you have a precision flat surface or straightedge, I would try to verify that the spindle is really bent before getting another one. The problem could actually be bad bearings or excessive free play if the handwheel was not adjusted correctly.

Whether or not you get a new spindle, when you install the new bearings, make certain that you do not tap or hammer them onto the spindle. You can usually get the new bearings to easily slide onto the spindle by freezing the spindle for an hour or so to shrink its diameter slightly.

 

[Dean Center]

Thanks for the help. I had gotten the spindle out prior to John's response, using the method he described.

Bill, do I understand that the bearings, which are now firmly in the headstock, need to be removed and placed on the spindle prior to installation of the new spindle? (which is obviously unstraight. It wasn't just a catch and there was a substantial amount of force involved, so I'm only a little surprised it happened.) Also, the spindle has a very rough, dark brown, presumably rusted band, full circumference, right where the handwheel side bearing would have been. I also assume from your answer that, yes, I need new bearings.

When I shop for them, I find 6004-2RS and 6004-ZZ rather than the 6004-VV that jet lists. They also cost $2-5 each rather than $20 each from jet. Which should I get? We have a Fastenal in town, not sure if they have bearings, and no other local place to buy them, so I may need to order on-line.

Thanks.

Dean Center

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks for the help. I had gotten the spindle out prior to John's response, using the method he described.

Bill, do I understand that the bearings, which are now firmly in the headstock, need to be removed and placed on the spindle prior to installation of the new spindle? (which is obviously unstraight. It wasn't just a catch and there was a substantial amount of force involved, so I'm only a little surprised it happened.) Also, the spindle has a very rough, dark brown, presumably rusted band, full circumference, right where the handwheel side bearing would have been. I also assume from your answer that, yes, I need new bearings.

When I shop for them, I find 6004-2RS and 6004-ZZ rather than the 6004-VV that jet lists. They also cost $2-5 each rather than $20 each from jet. Which should I get? We have a Fastenal in town, not sure if they have bearings, and no other local place to buy them, so I may need to order on-line.

Thanks.

Dean Center

Dean, for any given size bearings there are a number of different grades available. The difference covers a number of different things such as the precision of the balls and races, the amount of clearance or preload, rated maximum speed, type of seals or shields, groove type, precision vs. non-precision, etc. Here is a link to ReplacementBearings.com that can help you find what you are looking for. For example, you might want to get deep groove bearings that can withstand some axial loading rather than the el-cheapo five dollar type. There is a big difference in quality. If I was replacing the spindle, I would install new bearings even if the old ones were OK. For about $20 or so, you can get some high quality bearings that are probably better than the Jet replacements.

A lot of wood dust gets into the interior of the headstock so I think that I would use sealed vs. shielded bearings.

You can also go to some of the bearing manufacturer's sites and download their technical manuals which will give you a wealth of information about bearings.

Concerning the rough area on the spindle -- try reassembling the spindle in the headstock to verify that the bad spot really is where the bearing rides. If so, it sounds like a good enough reason to get another spindle even if it is not bent. The area on the spindle where the bearing goes needs to be a precision polished surface.

I didn't recall whether the bearings on the Jet mini had an interference fit on the spindle, but it appears that the outer bearing diameter is captured in the headstock. It probably is being held with an inside snap ring.

I have had some exciting catches, but it sounds like this one was more exciting than most. Oh well, blame it on the rough area on the spindle. The spindle would have to be replaced sooner or later anyway.

 

[Matt Lewis]

Dean,

I should have said Bearings Limited and not Unlimited. Here is a link to the specs - http://www.bearingslimited.com/pdf/catalogs/Bearings-Cat.pdf. The 6004 and 6005 ZZ/2RS are extra light duty deep groove bearings. The ZZ (metal non-liquid) and RS (contact lip liquid ) designators have to do with the seal type. I have never found a good explanation for the VV and when researching have always been led to 2RS or ZZ. Note, when I looked up 6004-2RS on the Replacement Bearings link and then clicked on the picture it took me to the VV listing....both bearings are the same price.

For what it is worth, I elected to replaced my 1014 bearings with those from Bearings Limited. I have found more issue with the slight slop in the fit of the headstock casting than I have with the bearing specifications. I figure that even if I found a higher end bearing of the correct dimensions any improvement in tolerance would be negated by the okay machining in the casting.

Regards,

 

[Bill Boehme]

The headstock machining for the bearings is actually not an issue unless it is oversized to the point of shifting noticeably under load. Even if that is the case, corrugated shim stock is available to center the bearing in the machined recess. Any problems with runout are usually related to problems with the spindle itself as well as clearance between balls and races in the bearing assembly.

I have not heard the reference to liquid before. I wonder if that is an advertizing term that Bearings Unlimited uses. The term Z refers to a metal shield on the side of the bearings as opposed to an open bearing where the balls and grease are exposed. It there is a metal shield on both sides then the designation ZZ is used. If the bearing has "seals" rather than "shields" then the term V (or VV for both sides) is used for non-contact seals or RS (or 2RS or RRS for both sides) is used for a full contact rubber seal. Contact rubber seals obviously have more drag than non-contact seals and shields. Even tighter labyrinth rubber seals are used on type DDU. For the Jet 1014 which has a maximum spindle speed of 3900 RPM, it would make much more sense to go with a type VV non contact seal. I think that a labyrinth rubber seal might not hold up too long at 3900 RPM.

Here is a link to a nice simple explanation of bearing nomenclature. It does not mention the ABEC scale described in this link.

 

[Dean Center]

Thanks again, all. I talked with the Jet support tech today. He thinks rust is normal on the spindle, as "metal sweats when it goes from hot to cold." He did not think the bearings had to be replaced, unless they were noisy. I think replacing them is still a good idea. He suggests WD-40 on the spindle to get the pulley to slide when I put it back in and eyeballing is adequate for aligning the pulleys.

Bill, the only explanation I have is that stupid is an exponential function. My dial indicator estimates the run out at 34/1000".

Dean

 

[Matt Lewis]

Hey Bill,

This is from the Bearings Limited link I supplied:

Sealed (2RS) bearings feature contact lip seals that provide excellent protection from liquids and contamination. However, seal rubbing can result in friction (drag) and produce heat, which could be
a concern in high-speed applications.

Shielded (ZZ) bearings have non-contact steel shields that do not protect against liquids but add no friction or heat build-up during operation.

They don't mention the VV as it doesn't look like they sell them....I appreciate your clearing that up for us.

What are your thoughts on the internal clearance? This is from the same manual. Jet doesn't mention clearance in their parts listing.

C2 Tight
C0 Standard
C3 Loose
C4 Extra loose
No symbol indicates
standard clearance.

Check out the speed and temperature ratings. I'd be interested in your thoughts on those also with regard to the 1014.

Thanks,

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks again, all. I talked with the Jet support tech today. He thinks rust is normal on the spindle, as "metal sweats when it goes from hot to cold." He did not think the bearings had to be replaced, unless they were noisy. I think replacing them is still a good idea. He suggests WD-40 on the spindle to get the pulley to slide when I put it back in and eyeballing is adequate for aligning the pulleys.

Bill, the only explanation I have is that stupid is an exponential function. My dial indicator estimates the run out at 34/1000".

Dean

Well, at best, the Jet Tech got it backwards -- and it not about the metal -- it's about the dew point temperature. Just like a glass with an ice cold drink sweats on a humid day, the same thing happens with anything else that is cold enough to be below the dew point. Besides that, the lathe spindle shouldn't be running hot, but even if it is, that won't make it rust unless it is hot enough to anneal the metal.

I wouldn't trust bearings that have been running on a bent spindle. Even if the bearings still had some useful life left, I personally would prefer to just spend the extra $40 and have all new stuff that won't need maintenance again for a while.

While WD-40 is great stuff, I would use something with better lubricating film strength. Even 3-in-1 oil or Marvel Mystery Oil would be better. A few drops of motor oil would work great. I am a big fan of Johnson's Paste Wax for this sort of thing. In fact I use Johnson's paste wax for a lot of stuff in my shop like waxing the lathe bed, bottom of the tool rest, tailstock, headstock, tool rest posts, tablesaw top, planer bed, jointer bed, and on and on.

Hey Bill,

This is from the Bearings Limited link I supplied:

Sealed (2RS) bearings feature contact lip seals that provide excellent protection from liquids and contamination. However, seal rubbing can result in friction (drag) and produce heat, which could be
a concern in high-speed applications.

Shielded (ZZ) bearings have non-contact steel shields that do not protect against liquids but add no friction or heat build-up during operation.

They don't mention the VV as it doesn't look like they sell them....I appreciate your clearing that up for us.

What are your thoughts on the internal clearance? This is from the same manual. Jet doesn't mention clearance in their parts listing.

C2 Tight
C0 Standard
C3 Loose
C4 Extra loose
No symbol indicates
standard clearance.

Check out the speed and temperature ratings. I'd be interested in your thoughts on those also with regard to the 1014.

Thanks,

I still think that it is strange that they mentioned liquids since the bearing seal is not what would be used to prevent liquid leaking on something like a pump. For that, a shaft seal would be used and possibly also a sleeve bearing. Primarily the seals and shields are meant to keep the grease in and crud out.

Generally, when you get off-the-shelf bearings at an auto parts store or hardware store, they are C3, but I think that it would be better to use C0. It is probably not necessary to get C2 clearance (preloaded) for this application. When you use preloaded bearings, it usually means that the shaft diameter needs to be very precise because the bearing inner race is actually stretched slightly during installation to get the desired preload. Since the spindle shaft is not sized for preloaded bearings, it is probably wasting money to use them in this instance.

 

[Dean Center]

After cleaning things up in anticipation of the new spindle, I found the threads on the handwheel 'spray painted' with coppery colored rust. Under the brown colored band, the spindle is now gray and rough. Could it have been supplied that way, for some reason?

The 6004VV bearings I've found on-line are C3. I also looked closely at the original bearings and they say 6004LB/6005LB (as best I can make out. They also say: Taiwan, Y??, TPI)

I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone, but it's been very interesting, and in the long run, useful.

 

[Matt Lewis]

Dean,

For what it is worth, I have been using the 6004/6005 2RS C3 for a couple years and I can't pinpoint a noticeable difference between them and the original. I don't know if the original are C0 or C3 so I can't comment on that aspect. If the opportunity and price present themselves then I will try some C0 and VVs, but can't see the need to spend an extra $30 right now for this lathe when what I have seems to work. Thanks to you and Bill for the educational discussion though.

Regards,

 

[Dean Center]

Everything is back together and working fine, thanks to you all, especially Matt's hand holding. Jet sent a replacement spindle which does not have a rough, brown ring or even a mark at the edge of the outboard bearing. The VV bearings were not easy to find, but I ordered a pair from Right Path on E-Bay, who turns out to be ReplacementBearings.com, and very quickly I had exactly what I wanted.

I had to rap pretty hard to get the old bearings out. After cleaning the seats, I found they were a little on the small side, so I smoothed with a little emory paper. The Inboard bearing pressed in with a moderate amount of pressure, but the Outboard required the assistance of a couple Irwin clamps. The spindle fit in easily and snuggly, the key and pulley were easy. Getting the pressure from the handwheel and spring clip just right took a little time, but aligning the pulley was simple.

It runs smoothly, though maybe not quite the same hum as before. I may take a little more pressure off the handwheel.

Thanks for all the help. I learned a lot and it was reassuring to be able to maintain my lathe myself.

Dean Center

 

[Matt Lewis]

Hey Dean,

Excellent news!

Best regards,

Matt