Seller fraudulently using famous turners' names

[Asher Langton]

I've been keeping my eye out on eBay and elsewhere for bowls to buy, and I keep running across this seller. Take a look at this listing, for example:

Studio Craft Turned Elm Burl Bowl, Signed/Melvin Lindquist | eBay

<p>Studio Craft Turned Elm Burl Bowl, Signed. Turned bowl with organic rim. In very good condition with wear consistent with age and material.</p><br /><p>Size: 6.75”D x 4.5”H</p>

www.ebay.com

From the title, who do you think made the piece in question? Then take a look at the pictures and compare the signature on the bottom. This seller makes a habit of this, both on eBay and Etsy, appending the names of famous turners to the listing titles to manipulate the search results. At best, it's obnoxious. At worst, when the only name in the title is of an unrelated turner, it's outright fraudulent. I reported a bunch of these listings to eBay under their "misleading title" and "keyword spamming" rules, but the eBay says no rules have been violated. Just a heads up to anyone looking for collectible bowls online!

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

If it had been stated as a "Melvin Lindquist STYLE" it would have been a little more acceptable, but it is still ultra dirty marketing.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

I don't think the real Melvin Lindquist made anything resembling that.

 

[Richard Coers]

That kind of marketing has become rampant, especially on Facebook Marketplace. I watch vintage cars in my region. The ad title reads with an impossible combination of car model names. For example, "1960 Chrysler Bugatti" But it can make people look to see just what the hell the car is in that sea of cars listed. Honesty or clarity has become lost in the 24 hour news onslaught of political reporting, why not marketing?

 

[Donna Banfield]

I question the authenticity of those pieces. I visited the seller's site, and he has many pieces attributed to famous makers. For example, this image: is being offered as a Bob Stocksdale work. I've never seem a form like this attributed to Bob Stocksdale, and a poorly turned and finished form it is.

 

[Asher Langton]

I question the authenticity of those pieces. I visited the seller's site, and he has many pieces attributed to famous makers. For example, this image: is being offered as a Bob Stocksdale work. I've never seem a form like this attributed to Bib Stocksdale, and a poorly turned and finished form it is.

That vessel has the actual maker's name (Dan Kvitka) in the listing and title. The seller just appends other turner(s) name(s) to the end of the title to show up searches. But, like you, when I first read "...Signed/Bob Stocksdale", I was expecting to see one of Stocksdale's bowls! (That's how I stumbled on this seller in the first place, trying to find a Stocksdale bowl I can afford!)

 

[Richard Coers]

The person listing is going to wonder what jackpot they have that the number of hits on their site is suddenly going up. I bet they think their marketing plan is working perfectly!!!!

 

[Brian Gustin]

That kind of marketing has become rampant, especially on Facebook Marketplace.

For example, "1960 Chrysler Bugatti"

The problem with Facebook, if you ever went to list a car for sale, More often with Vintage models, Facebook often has incomplete drop downs (And their listing form uses drop downs, not anything you can just type in) - They could list a 1960 Chrysler, but then the listing will error out when you submit because they REQUIRE a model , and the model drop down list is sorely limited (and often mixed up) so you can't really select an accurate make/model on some cars or listings - It isn't always so much the seller trying to boost the listing as it is Facebook forcing them to select from drop downs that don't match up. A lot of times on marketplace I will see in the listing description where they apologize at the title and explain that they just picked an option since facebook wouldn't let them post otherwise.

I encountered it myself trying to list a car for a friend, so I can understand that sort of mis-labelling as far as Facebook marketplace goes.

 

[John Hicks]

The Problem is that people think it's ok to deceive others to gain something. By the way, I have a hollow form turned by Winston Wigglesworth Meisterburger the 3rd for sale!

 

[Stan Pressner]

The Problem is that people think it's ok to deceive others to gain something. By the way, I have a hollow form turned by Winston Wigglesworth Meisterburger the 3rd for sale!

Oh, if only it was by his son,Winston Wigglesworth Meisterburger IV, I would gladly pay you Tuesday for it.

 

[Rick Urban]

What's the phrase? Caveat emptor!

 

[Asher Langton]

I have a saved search for Bob Stocksdale, and I woke up this morning with a notification from eBay: another no-name bowl from this seller being misrepresented with both Osolnik and Stocksdale's names. I reported the item under their "search manipulation" rules, for both "keyword spamming" and "misleading title". Not 5 minutes later, eBay had taken decisive action:



Hopefully blocking this seller will keep this nonsense out of my saved search emails, at least.

 

[Bill Boehme]

This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.

Too bad that they don’t use "real intelligence".

 

[Asher Langton]

The seller replied:

But (with no disrespect intended towards Kvitka's piece) if anyone can find a genuine Stocksdale piece that looks even remotely like this one, I'll eat my smock.

 

[Donna Banfield]

If he is using the internet to sell work by misrepresenting the actual work being offered for sale, there's no reason you could not also use the internet by posting on woodturning/woodworking forums and social media that in your opinion, the seller is engaging in manipulative and misrepresentative tactics to sell pieces. Your posting is simply to help those potential buyers to 'be aware'.

 

[RichColvin]

Isn’t this mail fraud?

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Isn’t this mail fraud?

sure is

It is intentional misrepresentation Fraud in the inducement to contract, and goes by other names depending on what state you may be in. In PA, it is a direct violation of the Unfair Consumer Practices Act and can result in triple damages plus attorney's fees. ie $400 for a bowl x 3 plus what ever the attorney's hourly rate totals, (within reason)

I had been looking for a small motor bike for a relative. So many Chinese scooters are listed as Vespa's, or other Chinese motorbikes as Hinda's. The other one I like is Antique Vintage (whatever) that is obviously new made.

The US government does next to nothing to prosecute telephone fraud. Some state attorney generals and state consumer affairs offices have been jumping on these types of things.

My daughter got caught in one. Advertised a 500 watt e-bike for $99. with a video showing people going down the road. 2 weeks after she sent payment, she got a shipping notice and the tracking showed the delivery. Went to the PO, where the Post master showed us the address label of the alleged package It was not to our address nor was it from the seller, it was from Swiss Colony mail order cheese. We contacted the state of PA and daughter had a refund in 8 days. .

I really think people are becoming exponentially more dishonest with each decade.

 

[Brian Gustin]

. The other one I like is Antique Vintage (whatever) that is obviously new made.

Around here the last couple years , seems like 2/3 of the woodwork projects listed for sale on Facebook market place are suddenly "Amish Made" , even though many of them are obviously CNC cut project parts , or the quality that I have seen is so poor I don't think any Amish craftsman in his right mind would have laid claim to making it. (Our rural area has seen a rapidly growing Amish population over the last 10 years or so...)

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Around here the last couple years , seems like 2/3 of the woodwork projects listed for sale on Facebook market place are suddenly "Amish Made" , even though many of them are obviously CNC cut project parts , or the quality that I have seen is so poor I don't think any Amish craftsman in his right mind would have laid claim to making it. (Our rural area has seen a rapidly growing Amish population over the last 10 years or so...)

I met an Amish contractor last winter and spent some time in his shop. The elders permitted him to go to trade college to learn CNC and he has an incredibly automated shop, uses a computer etc. The only catch, he may not hook up to the grid for power. So has has an old GM 670 diesel something running a generator that powers his shop. His cnc sign table must be 8 ft wide by 10 feet long. He has another gizmo that cuts tennons and mortises for post and beam construction. Says it is within a 1/128th of an inch accurate over a beam 36 ft long. The guy is fascinating, very well read, has traveled over the world on mission trips and goes to the grocery store in a horse and buggy. He only has one other employee. He helped me with my crappy little laser engraver and taught me a few tricks. He also makes wooden spiral staircases with ornate curved banisters and railings for extremely rich folks homes. But he is Amish through and through.

Many Amish businesses now take electronic orders on line over the net. They have web sites and between wind turbines, solar panels etc, have the brightest lit place at night now

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Here is another pet peeve. Advertise a fancy music box used but "works like new" belonged to grandmother and was her favorite. yada yada, for $50. I can see in the photo, that is has the very expensive Sankyo 3 minute gold movement. So I send a message and ask "what tune" Response, don't know, it doesn't work, selling on consignment.

Will run great with new carb just don't have time to order and install for the $17.00 part

Buyer: Title? Seller; That was lost in a move. Buyer: So apply for a new one? Seller: Well......

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Around here the last couple years , seems like 2/3 of the woodwork projects listed for sale on Facebook market place are suddenly "Amish Made" , even though many of them are obviously CNC cut project parts , or the quality that I have seen is so poor I don't think any Amish craftsman in his right mind would have laid claim to making it. (Our rural area has seen a rapidly growing Amish population over the last 10 years or so...)

Perhaps it's an Amish-born woodturner who no longer practices the Amish ways.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I met an Amish contractor last winter and spent some time in his shop. The elders permitted him to go to trade college to learn CNC and he has an incredibly automated shop, uses a computer etc. The only catch, he may not hook up to the grid for power. So has has an old GM 670 diesel something running a generator that powers his shop. His cnc sign table must be 8 ft wide by 10 feet long. He has another gizmo that cuts tennons and mortises for post and beam construction. Says it is within a 1/128th of an inch accurate over a beam 36 ft long. The guy is fascinating, very well read, has traveled over the world on mission trips and goes to the grocery store in a horse and buggy. He only has one other employee. He helped me with my crappy little laser engraver and taught me a few tricks. He also makes wooden spiral staircases with ornate curved banisters and railings for extremely rich folks homes. But he is Amish through and through.

Many Amish businesses now take electronic orders on line over the net. They have web sites and between wind turbines, solar panels etc, have the brightest lit place at night now

We have an Amish community near me in Ethridge, TN. I visited a few woodworkers and ordered a bedroom set and kitchen set. Sometime this spring I'll get a letter telling me the stuff is ready to pick up. They can't call, after all.

What I saw was that the Amish here are allowed to use an engine for power, but it cannot generate electricity. The table-maker's shop had shafts and pulleys running to all his power tools. Pretty cool, actually.

 

[Asher Langton]

What I saw was that the Amish here are allowed to use an engine for power, but it cannot generate electricity. The table-maker's shop had shafts and pulleys running to all his power tools. Pretty cool, actually.

Some Amish craftsman use pneumatic tools, often converted from standard power tools.

 

[stu senator]

<The table-maker's shop had shafts and pulleys running to all his power tools. Pretty cool, actually.>
Actually when I went to high school the power tools in the lower grades machine shop were all overhead belt driven. The school, Brooklyn Technical HS, was built in the 1930's and only the advanced, upper grade, shop tools had their own motors.
Don't know if that is true today as a lot has changed,

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Too bad that they don’t use "real intelligence".

If you don’t have any then you have to use artificial intelligence.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Some Amish craftsman use pneumatic tools, often converted from standard power tools.

there are three types of Amish in central Pa. they many separate based on what modern conveniences they may use. some are permitted to use electric so long as it doesn't come from the grid. they use cordless power tool batteries for everything , buggy lights, powering vacuum cleaners etc. then some can have electric in barn for minimal special uses, like a milk cooler, but no where near the house. the "tie and clasp" Amish wont even use buttons or zippers and keep everything primitive. we also have German Baptists who will have electric but no automobiles. Mennonotes will have cars with the chrome painted black