Unpopular Turning Opinions...

[John Ames]

I have a few...

1. I don't care for turning wet wood... especially if its spraying wet all over the shop!
2. I enjoy turning crappy wood... in fact, its almost all I turn.
3. I often sand my bowls on the lathe at >1200 rpm... or with an angle grinder and a flap disc
4. I'm willing to risk bleeding, bruises, and banged up hands to turn crappy wood... (I haven't taken a shot to the head in a long time! And I wear serious gear if its too sketchy...)
5. I rarely "ride the bevel"
6. Brute force sometimes works better than "proper" technique.
7. I won't give up on a piece... I've spent WAY too many hours saving a piece that probably wasn't worth it in the end
8. I enjoy the struggle of the most difficult pieces
9. Since I got my 3M PAPR about 5 years ago, I don't mind sanding!
10. I never have, and probably never will, enjoy spindle turning

Don't judge me.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Carbide turners aren't real turners. Is that a popular or unpopular opinion?

When I started turning a year ago, I was determined to do it the "right" way with traditional HSS tools. I own carbide tools and I use them on occasion. But when I click on a video and I see a carbide turner, I immediately exit. Mostly because they have nothing to teach me.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I have a few...

1. I don't care for turning wet wood... especially if its spraying wet all over the shop!
2. I enjoy turning crappy wood... in fact, its almost all I turn.
3. I often sand my bowls on the lathe at >1200 rpm... or with an angle grinder and a flap disc
4. I'm willing to risk bleeding, bruises, and banged up hands to turn crappy wood... (I haven't taken a shot to the head in a long time! And I wear serious gear if its too sketchy...)
5. I rarely "ride the bevel"
6. Brute force sometimes works better than "proper" technique.
7. I won't give up on a piece... I've spent WAY too many hours saving a piece that probably wasn't worth it in the end
8. I enjoy the struggle of the most difficult pieces
9. Since I got my 3M PAPR about 5 years ago, I don't mind sanding!
10. I never have, and probably never will, enjoy spindle turning

Don't judge me.

Just me...

1. I like turning wet wood.
2. I don't mind semi crappy wood until it proves unusable. Then I'm quick to pitch it.
3. I don't spin sand as a final technique (once-turned bowls make that challenging anyway). When I do, though, I use my lowest speed of 550 (without changing the belt). That's still too fast for bowls. Looking forward to my new lathe when I can go 50 to 1700 RPM on a single belt setting.
4. Yesterday I turned an NE bowl out of an out-of-balance cherry blank. It was higher on one side than the other and no way to remove the excess until I hogged out the interior. I couldn't go above 650 RPM when I was turning the outside. I was mighty tired of getting beat up that blank by the time I got it roughed in.
5. That would be a VERY unpopular opinion. I might say, "I sometimes, albeit rarely, don't ride the bevel." Maybe 2% of the time I cheat a little until I can get on the bevel.
6. Would need to see examples.
7. I've gotten much better at pitching bad pieces. It's not that it can't be saved, but that my time is better spent on a new bowl.
8. I can see that.
9. I still don't like sanding but when my technique gets better, the sanding time will be reduced.
10. I do some. It's a completely different set of skills and tools.

 

[odie]

7. I've gotten much better at pitching bad pieces. It's not that it can't be saved, but that my time is better spent on a new bowl.

^^^^^ Me, too.....

I hate crappy wood.

-o-

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Re: Carbide Tools
I think if it works for you and you enjoy turning, have fun and enjoy yourself. That's what it is all about.

 

[Steve Tiedman]

Re: Carbide Tools
I think if it works for you and you enjoy turning, have fun and enjoy yourself. That's what it is all about.

I agree with you to an extent, but I agree with Kent fully. Carbide scrapers weren't an influence when I started turning in 1995 (nor were most of today's high end super-steel gouges, etc., but Jerry Glaser was paving the way for them). For me, it's also about mastering the skill to cut the wood, not just scrape the wood. Scrapers of all sorts and sizes have their place at the wood lathe, and I own a couple, but for me they don't replace a bevel supported cutting edge. But I agree- to each their own, I respect that.

 

[Asher Langton]

5. That would be a VERY unpopular opinion. I might say, "I sometimes, albeit rarely, don't ride the bevel." Maybe 2% of the time I cheat a little until I can get on the bevel.

Since taking David Ellsworth's class, I've been using bevel-supported cuts a *lot* less. Depending on the piece, I might do most or all of the outside without a bevel-supported cut. Interior roughing may or may not be bevel-supported. Only my final shaping and finishing cuts on the interior are definitely going to be bevel-supported.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I get what you are saying now.

 

[Michael Anderson]

10. I never have, and probably never will, enjoy spindle turning

Fun thread! Always interesting to think about these things and hear others’ opinions. Can I ask why you don’t enjoy spindle turning? It is the process itself, or you don’t find satisfaction the type of piece you would create?

 

[Raif Harik]

What does not using bevel support mean? Are you doing sheer scraping with a gouge? Using a scraper or nrs? Or do you mean you are just fighting like hell to use a gouge incorrectly?

 

[robo hippy]

Scrapers scrape, they don't cut..... Then why can I get nice ribbons of wood when I am using my scrapers???? Carbide scrapers do have their place, and most are just smaller scrapers, which to me are by far and away the best tool for removing huge amounts of wood in roughing cuts. I do not have any of the Hunter Carbide tools though.

I love turning sloppy wet wood, the more it warps, the more I like it. It did teach me to stand out of the line of fire, which to me is #1 safety rule.

I don't turn crappy wood. Part of that is because I make pieces that are intended to be used every day, not dust collectors.... Also, the crappy wood pieces take far more time to get a finished product from, and as some one who sold a lot of my turnings, they just were not worth the effort and extra time. Maybe if I was more 'artistic' then they may have been worth the effort.

I am on the Brute Squad! It does have its place some time in the shop, but that is more for heavy lifting rather than fine technique.

I do mind sanding, and do every thing I can to reduce that. When sanding I am at 15 or less rpm. Since all of my bowls are warped, that is the only way I can sand and keep the abrasives on the wood. I don't sand beyond 400 grit. For sure, the best surface for a piece of wood is the hand plane. A card scraper also does a very good job, but I really don't know about sanding beyond 400 grit, though I did take a few pieces beyond that. For some woods, and more for 'art' pieces, it can leave a better surface on woods that have chatoyance. Koa is one wood, and Myrtle/California Bay Laurel is another that benefit from this treatment, but not for daily use pieces. Not sure if sanding to 3000 grit will give the same surface as a card scraped/planed surface. Never went there....

With the sanding hood I built, there is no need for a powered respirator. "If you can smell the wood your are sanding, you are getting wood dust up your nose."

I am not sure how anyone can make bowls and not 'rub' the bevel. That is one of those 'must have' skills required for bowl turning. I do all of my 'finish' cuts that way, but do come back over it with a shear scrape, and a burnished burr.

I never understood those who say to start with spindles and stay with spindles before going to bowl turning. I may have turned 3 spindles before I started bowl turning. I took to bowls like a duck to water, and yes, I am an Oregon Duck! Part of that may be because I got a wood stash that was mostly good for bowls. I am starting to spend more time with with the skew, in part because of the challenge. I do prefer a skew with a slightly rounded profile rather than the straight across/15 degree or so off of square grind. Just easier for me, at present. I will keep one or two around just because I am always curious about learning new skills....

I have never developed finishing skills beyond bowl finishes, which for me is walnut oil. I am now experimenting with Rubio Monocote, which is a slow curing, 2 part finish that a lot of woodworkers were ranting about. I did try Osmo, and thought it was okay, but not great. The experimenting is continuing. I am making a coat rack for my entry way and will be making spheres to go onto 1/2 inch dowels. The monocote should work great for that.

I will probably think of others.

robo hippy

 

[John Ames]

Fun thread! Always interesting to think about these things and hear others’ opinions. Can I ask why you don’t enjoy spindle turning? It is the process itself, or you don’t find satisfaction the type of piece you would create?

I wish I could give you a good answer!

Let me try an analogy.... It's the same feeling I get with seafood. I wish I liked seafood... I want to like seafood.... life would be easier if I liked seafood... I just don't like it. It tastes weird to me. Salmon, clams, sushi, shrimp, lobster... all the stuff people love... I just don't care for any of it. don't get me started on Jambalaya!

For me, the process of spindle turning is boring compared to turning bowls. bead/cove/bead/cove/bead/cove... On the rare occasion I want to put a lid with a finial together, it's always the least interesting to me. I wish I liked it!

 

[Aaron Harris]

1. I HATE Odorless Mineral Spirits, and will look for the real thing for my next purchase!
2. Some surface embellishments on woodturnings don't look good IMO.
3. My favorite high-gloss bowl finish for decorative stuff is TruOil gunstock finish, not any of the real bowl finishes (though I use those when I want a more food-safe satin finish).
4. I refuse to participate in a virtual turning demo that takes place on Zoom. I started turning during the shutdown summer of 2020, and these were all the rage. I was/am so sick of Zoom from trying to use it as a teaching platform, I said never again unless I HAVE to. I haven't had to yet. If we go back to that nonsense, I'm turning in my retirement papers.

All I got for now. My StepDad used to say that opinions are like buttholes. Y'all know the rest!

 

[John Ames]

What does not using bevel support mean? Are you doing sheer scraping with a gouge? Using a scraper or nrs? Or do you mean you are just fighting like hell to use a gouge incorrectly?

I use the "rubbing the bevel" technique almost exclusively on finishing cuts where I need very thin removal on the inside. I do almost all my turning with pull cuts, not push cuts. Hence I'm pulling the edge of the gouge towards me, if that makes sense.

I'm self taught for 15 years and found things that work for me over the years. With LOTS of mistakes along the way! Im convinced if I ever put out a YouTube video, there would be a lot of "What the HELL are you doing??!!" comments!

 

[Bill Alston]

Scrapers scrape, they don't cut..... Then why can I get nice ribbons of wood when I am using my scrapers???? Carbide scrapers do have their place, and most are just smaller scrapers, which to me are by far and away the best tool for removing huge amounts of wood in roughing cuts. I do not have any of the Hunter Carbide tools though.

robo hippy

When folks say carbide tools only scrape I normally direct them to one of Glen Teagles videos. This isn’t the best example but he’s done so many I can’t find a better example at the moment. He often demonstrates rubbing the bevel on both faceplate and spindle work to get the best cut.

View: https://youtu.be/uiRMqrw5CyI?si=xcHuJ05_YbaxwMMK

 

[Michael Anderson]

Glen Teagles videos

That’s a good video Bill, thanks for sharing. I suppose it’s worth mentioning, at least in my experience/opinion, that cupped carbide cutters like shown in the video are totally different than normal flat carbide (including negative rake). They have the ability to slice instead of just scrape. When someone says carbide, I always assume scraper-style, unless there is some sort of clarification. But also, there are folks out there that do amazing work with carbide, cupped and non-cupped. @Mark Jundanian (if I’m not mistaken) comes to mind.

 

[Curt Fuller]

I must admit, after 25 years of turning I still don't understand much, maybe most, of today's turning lingo. I turn, sharpen, and design in my own style that may or may not be correct, I just don't know. When I've tried to do different, it has taken the fun out of it. I believe the end justifies the means and demos, seminars, classes, symposiums, etc should be putting more emphasis on aesthetics with the understanding that there is more than one way to turn wood.

 

[Bill Alston]

Michael, Glen demonstrates flat carbide inserts used in a similar way. I was quite surprised when I first saw him making cuts with carbide on spindle work.

 

[Michael Anderson]

Michael, Glen demonstrates flat carbide inserts used in a similar way. I was quite surprised when I first saw him making cuts with carbide on spindle work.

Very cool. This is the only video I’ve watched of his, but it’s great. I’ll have to check out some more.

 

[Bill Alston]

Here’s another interesting one. Look at the finish once he’s past the roughing stage.

View: https://youtu.be/Na8DLBYVw9Y?si=ovp6QNSUnM0iNP4q

 

[John Ames]

I must admit, after 25 years of turning I still don't understand much, maybe most, of today's turning lingo. I turn, sharpen, and design in my own style that may or may not be correct, I just don't know. When I've tried to do different, it has taken the fun out of it. I believe the end justifies the means and demos, seminars, classes, symposiums, etc should be putting more emphasis on aesthetics with the understanding that there is more than one way to turn wood.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly... I don't care if someone turns with steel, or carbide, on a treadle lathe, or a Robust, with a gouge, scraper, or screwdriver.... it's all in what was created. I don't care if someone rides the bevel, uses a 40/40 grind, finishes the piece with wax, epoxy, or crayons. if it looks cool, it looks cool.

Woodturning is one of the very few undertakings in my life where I think the destination is more important than the journey.

 

[Darryl Fective]

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly... I don't care if someone turns with steel, or carbide, on a treadle lathe, or a Robust, with a gouge, scraper, or screwdriver.... it's all in what was created. I don't care if someone rides the bevel, uses a 40/40 grind, finishes the piece with wax, epoxy, or crayons. if it looks cool, it looks cool.

Woodturning is one of the very few undertakings in my life where I think the destination is more important than the journey.

I think I enjoy the process as much as the end result. I get a charge out of trying something new, figuring something out, building a jig, or buying a new tool. I enjoy creating a nice piece, but I think the the discovery/learning process is more important for me.

I was just pondering that last statement... I love selling my work, (when I can) but I also enjoy giving them away; to friends and deserving strangers. It got me thinking about pieces that come and go, but also the ones I keep and treasure most. Why? Well, the funny thing is that those special keepers are chapters in the journey. They relflect the conquering of fears, the solutions to problems, or the "mastering" of a homemade jig/tool. For me, the "destination" is the token to remember the journey.

 

[odie]

I think I enjoy the process as much as the end result. I get a charge out of trying something new, figuring something out, building a jig, or buying a new tool. I enjoy creating a nice piece, but I think the the discovery/learning process is more important for me.

^^^^^ This is a great thought to ponder. For me, the final result means very little to me, but while I'm working on it, it has my full undivided attention. When it's done, my thoughts are on what I've discovered, or what is different than the thousands of bowls that proceeded it. For me, it's not about the bowl.....it's about refining the process.

-o-

 

[John Ames]

"For me, the final result means very little to me..."

I probably wouldn't advise you to put that on your business card!

But I understand your sentiment!

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

1. I don't care for turning wet wood... especially if its spraying wet all over the shop!
2. I enjoy turning crappy wood... in fact, its almost all I turn.

I love turning green wood because it cuts so nice and some sap/water flying around is a lot less of a problem then mold spoors.

 

[hockenbery]

I love turning green wood. Fun and no dust makes a nice time.
Turning with either hand forward I stay dry.

If you don’t have a spray line on the wall - you are missing out on one of turning’s finest creations.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I could list my big unpopular list, but I'm tired of comparing and ranting about certain brands or items. I don't think it matters how or what you use to turn, wet wood, dry wood, carbide tools, M2 tools M42 tools, Jet lathes Powermatic lathes, Robust lathes, to be honest there probably is a method or item that suits each person's unique quality's and turning style. But, there are two opinions that are generally followed, be safe and always make your health a priority, and have fun!! Part of what makes each person different is what they bring to the table. Being able to select what THEY want and taking THEIR ideas and making them THEIR own. For example there are two very good box turners in my club, the OVWG. But my specialty is boxes, so how do I come up with a way to make mine unique and separated from theirs. It took a few years, but I eventually developed a form- small sizes, unique shapes and original designs, undercut domed lids, raised feet, a new and pushing the envelope finish method and the use of beautiful and exotic woods. Most of those features are not of my fellow turners boxes, so therefore they become my unique skill set! Anyway, hopefully you get the point. I enjoy seeing all of the different and special work on this Forum, so keep it coming!!

BTW....I am going to try to make an article on how to turn my boxes for my teacher and club, so stay tuned it might be shared here....

 

[Elmer Zebley]

Love the "spray line on the wall" comment. Having the Laguna 18/36 sliding headstock, I've got two lines on the wall.

Anyone say, "Sometimes turning a root ball is worth it."

 

[Asher Langton]

If you don’t have a spray line on the wall - you are missing out on one of turning finest creations.

Day 2 of David Ellsworth's class, my first time turning *really* green wood.

 

[Aaron Harris]

Enjoy, Asher-you are on the exact same Sweet 16 I was on last summer in his class! You will learn to use one of his "whale harpoons" to do some hollowing tomorrow, probably. He is a walking encyclopedia of wood-turning. Take videos of him doing the famous "wings-up" finishing cuts, both inside and outside. I did this and spent the rest of the summer practicing them. Tell him I said hey, and enjoy that view from his back porch!

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

3. My favorite high-gloss bowl finish for decorative stuff is TruOil gunstock finish, not any of the real bowl finishes (though I use those when I want a more food-safe satin finish).

Huh. Interesting.

 

[Asher Langton]

Enjoy, Asher-you are on the exact same Sweet 16 I was on last summer in his class! You will learn to use one of his "whale harpoons" to do some hollowing tomorrow, probably. He is a walking encyclopedia of wood-turning. Take videos of him doing the famous "wings-up" finishing cuts, both inside and outside. I did this and spent the rest of the summer practicing them. Tell him I said hey, and enjoy that view from his back porch!

Oops, I should have been more clear. This was from last September. But you're right that I should have taken more videos, and the view was incredible!

 

[R Henrickson]

I think I enjoy the process as much as the end result. I get a charge out of trying something new, figuring something out, building a jig, or buying a new tool. I enjoy creating a nice piece, but I think the the discovery/learning process is more important for me.

I was just pondering that last statement... I love selling my work, (when I can) but I also enjoy giving them away; to friends and deserving strangers. It got me thinking about pieces that come and go, but also the ones I keep and treasure most. Why? Well, the funny thing is that those special keepers are chapters in the journey. They relflect the conquering of fears, the solutions to problems, or the "mastering" of a homemade jig/tool. For me, the "destination" is the token to remember the journey.

Amen! I turn -- and demo and teach -- for the enjoyment of the process, and working out ideas. If offered an "interesting amount", I sell my work.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I don't care if someone turns with steel, or carbide, on a treadle lathe, or a Robust, with a gouge, scraper, or screwdriver.... it's all in what was created. I don't care if someone rides the bevel, uses a 40/40 grind, finishes the piece with wax, epoxy, or crayons. if it looks cool, it looks cool.

When I posted my pointed, "carbide turners aren't real turners" I was being hyperbolic for the sake of discussion. I don't care what anyone else does, either. Having learned (well, starting to learn) HSS tools, I'm happy I went that route for my own self satisfaction. So while I don't see carbide turners as having the same skill level as HSS turners, I certainly can't take anything away from the good ones. There is no question that there are hundreds or thousands of carbide turners that produce some great work.

This reminds me of an analogy from about 25 years ago in the software world. In the 80s and 90s, a lot of code was C++ and C++ is hard (for some). In the early 90s, Microsoft released Visual Basic. It was much, much, much, easier than C++. However, it is an inferior language in just about any measurable way. It's for beginners. What VB did was to give a programming platform to people who had no desire or ability to learn C++. The barrier to entry in software development was dropped drastically. As a result, we (the industry) ended up with millions of people who could program in VB but couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag in any other language. The ease of use of VB also led to some really horrible code. In summary, a small percentage of VB programmers are very skilled. The vast majority are, for lack of a better term, hacks. It works for them, but their career path is a one-way street with no off ramps. OK, now I've gone over the top.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

One of the best demos I saw on turning was Stacey Hager in Houston (RIP). He sharpened a garden hoe and turned a bowl With it. He said on one end of a tool is a cutting edge against the wood, at the other is you. Everything in between doesn’t count.

 

[Dale Kern]

9. Since I got my 3M PAPR about 5 years ago, I don't mind sanding!

I would totally agree about using a PAPR. I purchased my PAPR for spraying dangerous cabinet finishes, but since becoming more sensitive to wood dust, I find wearing it a pleasure and now don't care about the dust!

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

This reminds me of an analogy from about 25 years ago in the software world. In the 80s and 90s, a lot of code was C++ and C++ is hard (for some). In the early 90s, Microsoft released Visual Basic. It was much, much, much, easier than C++. However, it is an inferior language in just about any measurable way. It's for beginners. What VB did was to give a programming platform to people who had no desire or ability to learn C++. The barrier to entry in software development was dropped drastically. As a result, we (the industry) ended up with millions of people who could program in VB but couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag in any other language. The ease of use of VB also led to some really horrible code. In summary, a small percentage of VB programmers are very skilled. The vast majority are, for lack of a better term, hacks. It works for them, but their career path is a one-way street with no off ramps. OK, now I've gone over the top.

Hmm... interesting analogy. Instead of comparing programming languages I might rewrite it to substitute carbide where you mention C++. And substitute HSS where you say VB.

Any "hacker" can muddle through turnings with HSS gouges. If all else fails use a HSS scraper and extensive sanding to salvage a turning.. Carbide is where technical skills are needed in guiding the free cutting carbide tools through knots and other difficult areas of a workpiece. Carbide can also do it without hundreds of dollars of sharpening equipment.

 

[robo hippy]

I used the quote once about "opinions are like rear ends, every body has one", and my dad, not losing a second quipped, "yes, and some of them stink!"..... I will carry and pass that one around till my birth certificate expires! I don't have that quick of a sense of humor... A tool in the hands of an expert who actually knows ALL the things that tool can do, can accomplish wonders. One club member turns light houses out of myrtle wood using only the Big Ugly tool. You can do very fine work with it, and for shear scraping, it is amazing.

robo hippy

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

There's no question that carbide is easier to learn/use and cheaper than HSS.

 

[Michael Anderson]

@Doug Rasmussen i have to respectfully disagree with you there. The learning curve for basic (flat) carbide inserts/scrapers (carbide scrapers) is almost inarguably inherently lower than with traditional gouges. Of course, using carbide well requires practice and skill development as with any other tool.