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Aligning Table Saw Sled Fence - Five Cut Method

Here’s the correct math for the five-cut method:

A=((T-B)/4)*(R/L)

Tim

That's the same math. Just organized with different grouping. I actually should have at least grouped the T-B 🧐, but the rest is the same.

Code:
A = (T-B)/4/L*R
  = (T-B)/4 * 1/L * R
  = (T-B)/4 * R/L

You are right, the T-B needed parens (order of operations/precedence), but the rest should just follow standard rules. If you divide by L first, or multiply by R then divide by L, or divide R by L first then multiply, the result is the same.
 
Yep. I find I actually need to build a new sled now but going to do it up the same way - Evidently while it was stored in the back room where I stashed it to put it out of the way, a rough cut board fell over and cracked it, I'll see if I can remember to pull it out and grab a picture, but yeah - I drill a through hole in the pivot end of the fence just far enough inside of the saw kerf to fit through a bolt for it to pivot on, and another at the other end of fence at some convenient point where I decide to put the knob, (in a drill press to drill holes square to the fence) then drill through the sled itself where fence is to be located, flip sled over to the side runner will be on and stick trammel with router and 1/4 inch bit using the pivot side as trammel pivot line up with the swing hole and route a perfect arc to get my range of adjustment, then a 1/2" straight bit in same router setup to cut a recess just a touch deeper than the carriage bolt head height following the same arc - then just a carriage bolt up through sled and fence and a lock knob on top. that way I can adjust my fence to pretty much any angle I need to cut, and I can dial it in pretty precisely.

I'll see if I can remind myself to get some photos tomorrow when I go out to the shop... I've already got some plans in mind to improve on it for the new sled I'm making (Just waiting for the sled runner to come from amazon ( https://www.amazon.com/Aluminium-Slider-Woodworking-Fixtures-Router/dp/B091Q78CK8 ) which may help vs the jury rigged one I have now.

Yeah, if you manage to dig it out, share some photos. What do you do about the blade cut into the fence...if the fence swings around, would the blade eventually chew that central part up? (This is actually a small concern of mine, that over time, the fence will end up getting chewed up at the point where the blade slices it... However, I was also thinking, I would ONLY use it in 90 degree orientation, and never angle the blade. I'd probably build a more advanced sled with replacable clearance plates and maybe fence plates, so that I could angle the place if I wanted to, and not have to rebuild the sled every year or something like that.)

Regarding those runners...wow, $11!? I think I spent over $30 on the HDPE, and it can't be adjusted for optimal fit in the miter slots. I may have to pick a couple of those up myself...
 
That's the same math. Just organized with different grouping. I actually should have at least grouped the T-B 🧐, but the rest is the same.

Code:
A = (T-B)/4/L*R
  = (T-B)/4 * 1/L * R
  = (T-B)/4 * R/L

You are right, the T-B needed parens (order of operations/precedence), but the rest should just follow standard rules. If you divide by L first, or multiply by R then divide by L, or divide R by L first then multiply, the result is the same.
You’re trying to do the same thing, but the order of operations will foul your proposals. The parenthesis's are needed to be correct.

Tim
 
That's the same math. Just organized with different grouping. I actually should have at least grouped the T-B 🧐, but the rest is the same.

Code:
A = (T-B)/4/L*R
  = (T-B)/4 * 1/L * R
  = (T-B)/4 * R/L

You are right, the T-B needed parens (order of operations/precedence), but the rest should just follow standard rules. If you divide by L first, or multiply by R then divide by L, or divide R by L first then multiply, the result is the same.
This is what I meant about the 5 cut method being fiddly. I kept getting confused and adjusting the fence in the wrong direction. The 3 cut method provides an intuitively obvious visual of the magnitude and direction of the fence correction required even to a foggy brain like mine.
 
You’re trying to do the same thing, but the order of operations will foul your proposals. The parenthesis's are needed to be correct.

Tim

For the subtraction, you are correct, I missed that in my OP. However all the rest of the parentheses are not necessary. This can easily enough be proven:

R = 22.75
L = 5.25
T = 0.445
B = 0.423

My Original:

A = (T-B)/4/L*R
= (0.445-0.423)/4/5.25*22.75
= 0.022/4/5.25*22.75
= 0.0055/5.25*22.75
= 0.00105*22.75
= 0.0238

Yours:

A = ((T-B)/4)*(R/L))
= ((0.445-0.423)/4)*(22.75/5.25))
= ((0.022/4)*4.333)
= 0.0055*4.33
= 0.238

The excess of parentheses kind of gets in the way, IMO. Basic order of operations for simple terms means multiplication/division have higher precedence than addition/subtraction, otherwise you run left to right. It doesn't matter if you move the /4 as a 1/4 * (R/L) even. The results are still the same:

A = ((T-B)*((R/L)/4))
= ((0.445-0.423)*((22.75/5.25)/4))
= (0.022*(4.333/4))
= 0.022*1.08333
= 0.238

Or we could even do this, running the M/D left to right:

A = ((T-B) * (R/L) / 4)
= ((0.445-0.423) * (22.75/5.25) / 4)
= (0.022*4.333 / 4)
= 0.095333/4
= 0.238

I forgot the parens for T-B originally, but once that's added, you can use simple algebra to rearrange the formula between my version and you version simply enough. The (T-B)/4/L is really (T-B)/4 * 1/L. Once you have the 1/L term, multiplying by R gives you R/L. You can easily enough seprate that into R/1 * 1/L, and combine the L back with the original (T-B)/4 term... I think it keeps things simpler, if you limit the number of parens (as, technically, "parenthesized/bracketed" groups take the single highest precedence, meaning you have to expend more cognitive effort to parse through the formula with all the parens. Keeping the parens around just the one term that actually needs a bump in precedence, (T-B), it keeps the cognitive effort lower. ;)

PEMDAS, is the acronym, right? Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication/Division (equal precedence, run left to right), Addition/Subtraction (equal precedence, run left to right). I think there is another acronym, BODMAS, which is basically the same thing. Technically they can both be reduced to PEMA/BOMA, since division is multiplication by a fraction, and subtraction is addition of a negative number. In any case...thanks for pointing out I missed the parens on the subtraction, that DID need to be done first.

This is what I meant about the 5 cut method being fiddly. I kept getting confused and adjusting the fence in the wrong direction. The 3 cut method provides an intuitively obvious visual of the magnitude and direction of the fence correction required even to a foggy brain like mine.

If you give yourself a simple rule, its easier:

Negative -> Move Inward (swing end of fence moves into sled)
Positive -> Move Outward (swing end of fence moves out of sled)

Then it becomes less fiddly, at least math and concept wise.

For me, the frustration has been, it seems like even a little flex in the system screws the pooch.

I'm all for simpler, though. I started watching videos on the 3-cut method... I'll have to run through them again. Effort wise, I don't know if I'm convinced its easier? Mathematically, there is less math, but...I'm good with math usually, so the 5-cut method works for me. This guy had a pretty good video...is this the same method you are referring to?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l5DFlCRGKo
 
is this the same method you are referring to?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l5DFlCRGKo
No, here's how I do it:

1. Straigten the long edge of a workpiece as wide as your sled will cut and at least twice as long.
2. Make a crosscut in the middle of the piece.
3.Flip one of the halves over end for end, so that it is upside down with the same reference edge against the fence and crosscut it again.
4. Flip it back over and butt the the crosscut ends together in their original orientation, with their reference edges against the fence. Any gap is twice the divergence from square. Assuming the fence is truly straight and your runners are a good fit in the slots you should be able to dial it in to +/- .005" over 24".
 
No, here's how I do it:

1. Straigten the long edge of a workpiece as wide as your sled will cut and at least twice as long.
2. Make a crosscut in the middle of the piece.
3.Flip one of the halves over end for end, so that it is upside down with the same reference edge against the fence and crosscut it again.
4. Flip it back over and butt the the crosscut ends together in their original orientation, with their reference edges against the fence. Any gap is twice the divergence from square. Assuming the fence is truly straight and your runners are a good fit in the slots you should be able to dial it in to +/- .005" over 24".

Gocha. I think I did that yesterday on a test piece, although, it was not as large as you recommend. I'll give it another try. I assume that on this large piece, you would want to make 1 initial reference cut, then rotate so that side is along the fence...THEN follow your steps 2-4 above?
 
Yeah, if you manage to dig it out, share some photos.
Here they are...
Pic 1 shows the fence swung out, pic 2 shows bottom side including the dual runners I made from an HDPE cutting board from dollar general
20250427_080420.jpg20250427_080116.jpg

I don't worry about the fence overhang of the kerf - It is easy enough to stick in a piece of hardboard scrap along the fence if I need the zero-clearance cut (minimizing end grain tear out)
 
Here they are...
Pic 1 shows the fence swung out, pic 2 shows bottom side including the dual runners I made from an HDPE cutting board from dollar general
View attachment 74995View attachment 74994

I don't worry about the fence overhang of the kerf - It is easy enough to stick in a piece of hardboard scrap along the fence if I need the zero-clearance cut (minimizing end grain tear out)

Ah! I see...yeah, that makes sense. So the blade isn't really cutting through your fence...the blade basically passes by the end of it. Interesting. I had something similar on one of my early bandsaw sleds. I made that out of MDF, it was I think my second sled, and it had many problems. :P I used it mostly for trying to make segmented pen blanks. I need to revisit it and make another one, but yeah, it had a swinging fence like that. I was thinking of something totally different when you first mentioned this, but now it makes a lot of sense.
 
McLaughlin sure adds a lot of steps to a very simple procedure. Do it the way Kevin Jenness does and save several steps. The 5 cut method is technically more precise but I doubt it makes any difference. This is woodworking not a machine shop. Also adding the R/L factor makes it more precise than marking the measuring point with the test piece especially if the fence is significantly longer than your test piece.
 
McLaughlin sure adds a lot of steps to a very simple procedure. Do it the way Kevin Jenness does and save several steps. The 5 cut method is technically more precise but I doubt it makes any difference. This is woodworking not a machine shop. Also adding the R/L factor makes it more precise than marking the measuring point with the test piece especially if the fence is significantly longer than your test piece.

I can understand that.

I don't know what accuracy is required, to say cut segments for segmented turning pieces (probably mostly vases, to start.) I know that you have a lot of cuts with segmented turning... With all of those cuts, would any error compound and cause problems? That's been the main thing in my mind, I guess. Second to that, I want to make some small boxes. Pen boxes, maybe small trinket/jewelry boxes. Eventually I'd make larger boxes, but I only have the capacity to start small right now. With boxes, making four cuts along each side...at what error level, does a compounded error on the fourth cut, actually matter? I know that 0.020 is too much, I could see the discrepancies with my own eyes. I think, right now, I am probably around 0.006-0.008 I think. I'm concerned that might still be too much, but I don't know...I lack the actual experience cutting and making things with a table saw to actually know.
 
I can understand that.

I don't know what accuracy is required, to say cut segments for segmented turning pieces (probably mostly vases, to start.) I know that you have a lot of cuts with segmented turning... With all of those cuts, would any error compound and cause problems? That's been the main thing in my mind, I guess. Second to that, I want to make some small boxes. Pen boxes, maybe small trinket/jewelry boxes. Eventually I'd make larger boxes, but I only have the capacity to start small right now. With boxes, making four cuts along each side...at what error level, does a compounded error on the fourth cut, actually matter? I know that 0.020 is too much, I could see the discrepancies with my own eyes. I think, right now, I am probably around 0.006-0.008 I think. I'm concerned that might still be too much, but I don't know...I lack the actual experience cutting and making things with a table saw to actually know.
For Segmenting, you outta have a wedgie sled (someone here will be sure to be able to link to segmented woodturners, I can't think of the URL offhand, its bookmarked on shop computer) Segmenting is indeed compounded errors so the more precision you can get there, the better. For boxes and squaring up boards for boxes, dovetails, and other flatwork, you really ought to have and use a shooting board (See Rob Cosman on YouTube for example, or Wood by Wright for another, or Rex Krueger - many excellent shooting board build videos) because even slightly out of square results in compound errors - so as I mentioned, I may use a sled to cross cut boards "close enough for government work" as they say, but if I am doing a box or other similar fine woodworking flatwork (with cabinetry it's easy to hide little errors , with fine woodwork, it ain't) then I'm going to square and true up my parts with a shooting board and hand plane , marking knives, etc (besides, nothing like that silky smooth finish left by a properly sharpened hand plane - not even sandpaper can beat it) as for Segmenting, I built my wedgie sled based on plans from Segmented Woodturners (Look up @Jerry Bennett on here.) which is an entirely different animal from a typical crosscut sled.
 
For Segmenting, you outta have a wedgie sled (someone here will be sure to be able to link to segmented woodturners, I can't think of the URL offhand, its bookmarked on shop computer) Segmenting is indeed compounded errors so the more precision you can get there, the better. For boxes and squaring up boards for boxes, dovetails, and other flatwork, you really ought to have and use a shooting board (See Rob Cosman on YouTube for example, or Wood by Wright for another, or Rex Krueger - many excellent shooting board build videos) because even slightly out of square results in compound errors - so as I mentioned, I may use a sled to cross cut boards "close enough for government work" as they say, but if I am doing a box or other similar fine woodworking flatwork (with cabinetry it's easy to hide little errors , with fine woodwork, it ain't) then I'm going to square and true up my parts with a shooting board and hand plane , marking knives, etc (besides, nothing like that silky smooth finish left by a properly sharpened hand plane - not even sandpaper can beat it) as for Segmenting, I built my wedgie sled based on plans from Segmented Woodturners (Look up @Jerry Bennett on here.) which is an entirely different animal from a typical crosscut sled.

Thanks, Brian. I actually have looked into shooting boards a few times. I have a couple of hand planes now, and that makes sense, to hand plane to perfection rather than rely on the sled to cut perfectly. I'll plan on making a shooting board and do that once I get into the boxes more. I've watched a bunch of Rex's videos and shorts. I LOVE that guy! I think he is one of the most practical woodworkers around right now. :D He keeps things simple, practical and on point, all the time. Great guy.

I did pick up a nice marking gauge recently too. It was actually a gift. I've also watched a bunch of Rex's stuff on using marking gauges as well, and for the most part its pretty strait forward. Lot of useful little techniques for getting your marks exactly right.

I'll check out Jerry Bennet here, and see what he's got. Not sure if I have enough wood left for another sled or anything...but I'm also not quite starting the segmenting just yet, and I'm hoping that I'll be out of my financially tight spot here fairly soon. Once I am it should be easy enough to fund another sled.
 
Jon, you can make the simple wedgie sled out of mdf for about 30 bucks. A large 30/60 triangle can be utilized to make perfect 12 segment rings. The 60 degree end will make a 6. A 45 degree triangle will do an 8. Take a look at the Segmentology videos on YouTube. You can give segmenting a tro without spending a lot of money. If you run into a snag, email me. I will get you going.
Jerry
 
Jon, you can make the simple wedgie sled out of mdf for about 30 bucks. A large 30/60 triangle can be utilized to make perfect 12 segment rings. The 60 degree end will make a 6. A 45 degree triangle will do an 8. Take a look at the Segmentology videos on YouTube. You can give segmenting a tro without spending a lot of money. If you run into a snag, email me. I will get you going.
Jerry

Thanks for the tip about Segmentology. I think I've watched some of those in the past, but rewatching them now.

This sled is done here, outside of maybe refining the fence alignment. I imagine, though, that a triangle could be used with this sled never theless. I have some MDF I can probably use...from an old bandsaw sled that can likely be cannibalized.

Let me soak up what Segmentology has to say, and if I still have questions I'll contact you.
 
Jon, you can make the simple wedgie sled out of mdf for about 30 bucks. A large 30/60 triangle can be utilized to make perfect 12 segment rings. The 60 degree end will make a 6. A 45 degree triangle will do an 8. Take a look at the Segmentology videos on YouTube. You can give segmenting a tro without spending a lot of money. If you run into a snag, email me. I will get you going.
Jerry

So, just getting into these here... The curved track...I have seen sleds like these before. I don't think I have any way to cut a curved track like that. I could probably cut a strait track, maybe, inside a simple MDF fence, so that I could use it with the t-tracks in my new sled. I could have a single hole at one end for the inside track, and then a slot near the other end to allow a locking nut and knob to slide in and out, thus accommodating angles... I'm not particularly skilled with the router (even screwed up part of my sled when I got distracted and my router drifted!! :'( ) My router is rather large, too...and not easy to control (can't afford a smaller one yet...but its very near the top of my list when I can!!) Still, I think, if I can get a slot routed into a strip of MDF, I could probably accommodate any angle.

I DO have another question...what reference point is angle measured relative to?? I honestly can't quite figure that out. Is 0 degrees strait ALONG the blade? Or would that be 90 degrees? Or is 90 degrees along the fence? I picked up a digital angle finder the other day. So I can measure pretty much any angle now accurately. Only problem is, I don't know whether to measure from the fence or the blade! O_o
 
Jon,

A wedgie sled made with two miter tracks is easier to build and more versatile albeit more expensive. For cutting wedges the angle of the fence to the blade is what is specified. Don’t rely on a digital angle gauge to set the fences. They are just not accurate enough. As you will learn in the Segmentology series it is the angle between the fences that is critical. This is set with wedgies or as Jerry said you can use a 30-60 or 45 degree triangle to get started with. If you are going to get into segmented turning you should join segmentedwoodturners.org. Only $30/year and there is a wealth of knowledge that is freely shared.
 
Here’s a thread from over on OWWM that shows the sine-based sled I designed and built for segmented rings:
No wedge is needed. You may need to sign in to view it.

Also used on this project:

Tim
 
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Jon,

A wedgie sled made with two miter tracks is easier to build and more versatile albeit more expensive. For cutting wedges the angle of the fence to the blade is what is specified. Don’t rely on a digital angle gauge to set the fences. They are just not accurate enough. As you will learn in the Segmentology series it is the angle between the fences that is critical. This is set with wedgies or as Jerry said you can use a 30-60 or 45 degree triangle to get started with. If you are going to get into segmented turning you should join segmentedwoodturners.org. Only $30/year and there is a wealth of knowledge that is freely shared.

Yeah, I finished the first video, where he showed a single vs. dual fence design. I felt that the single fence design, and flipping the wood, was not only a simpler approach (he had to move the piece of wood between the two fences with the dual-fence design)...he also said that by flipping the wood like that you can negate any potential less-than-perfectly 90 degree angle of the blade. I've watched a LOT of segmented turners turn, and I think all of them have used the single fence flip method. It just seems faster/more efficient to me, too.

Regarding the digital angle gauge...how accurate do you need to be? This thing measures down to tenths... I guess I am not quite sure what kinds of angles you might need for some designs. I could see tenths not quite being precise enough in some cases. One thing I was looking at some time ago, was Rockler's miter setup blocks:


One of the reasons I put a miter track in my sled, was so I could use my miter gauge on it (and gain the benefit of the zero clearance slot and stop block, and not have to remove the sled all the time. Would these setup blocks be better? They can set the angle for 4 through 12 sided rings.
 
The dual-fence method negates any blade-tilt error.

The single-fence & flip method compounds blade-tilt error. However, if you are willing to flip every other segment during glue-up, the error can be offset. I demonstrate this in the OWWM thread linked above.

Tim
 
The dual-fence method negates any blade-tilt error.

The single-fence & flip method compounds blade-tilt error. However, if you are willing to flip every other segment during glue-up, the error can be offset. I demonstrate this in the OWWM thread linked above.

Tim

Ah, I see. I've registered for OWWM. They have to approve new registrants.
 
@Jerry Bennett @Tim Hunter @Mike Selser

Ok, watched the Segmentology vids. He shows how to make the wedgie sled itself, but he doesn't show how he made the other part, the zero clearance saw insert. I could probably figure that out a bit, but, it seemed to have a couple of complexities to it. As did his stop block... Does he show those builds anywhere?

@Jerry Bennett Sorry, just realized its you in the vids! :D

EDIT: Also, I understand the benefits of the wedgie sled with both fences now. The third video makes it clear. Pretty cool how it makes it easy to do two different types of wood, with different angles, and they easily form a perfect ring in the end. Awesome.

@Tim Hunter In your recent bowl, the thin walnut segments between the larger maple segments. Were those done as these "parallel" segments with alternate orientations, as Jerry shows in his "advanced" segmentology video? Or were they also true wedges?
 
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@Jerry Bennett @Tim Hunter @Mike Selser

Ok, watched the Segmentology vids. He shows how to make the wedgie sled itself, but he doesn't show how he made the other part, the zero clearance saw insert. I could probably figure that out a bit, but, it seemed to have a couple of complexities to it. As did his stop block... Does he show those builds anywhere?

Her is one YouTube that shows making the zero clearance insert.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gFBmXhNFQ
 
@Mike Selser I can't seem to quote your post for some reason. Thanks fo rthat.

I wonder if Dave is still doing these? I don't have access to a CNC machine, but, he mentioned his table saw is a Ridgid R4512 table saw...which, is very similar to the Ridgid table saw I own (R4514, IIRC). Wonder if I might be able to ask him to make me a few of those inserts, as I'm not sure if I have any way to make one myself.
 
Yeah, I finished the first video, where he showed a single vs. dual fence design. I felt that the single fence design, and flipping the wood, was not only a simpler approach (he had to move the piece of wood between the two fences with the dual-fence design)...he also said that by flipping the wood like that you can negate any potential less-than-perfectly 90 degree angle of the blade. I've watched a LOT of segmented turners turn, and I think all of them have used the single fence flip method. It just seems faster/more efficient to me, too.

Regarding the digital angle gauge...how accurate do you need to be? This thing measures down to tenths... I guess I am not quite sure what kinds of angles you might need for some designs. I could see tenths not quite being precise enough in some cases. One thing I was looking at some time ago, was Rockler's miter setup blocks:


One of the reasons I put a miter track in my sled, was so I could use my miter gauge on it (and gain the benefit of the zero clearance slot and stop block, and not have to remove the sled all the time. Would these setup blocks be better? They can set the angle for 4 through 12 sided rings.

Not sure where you are seeing a Lot of segmenters using the flip method but in my experience the majority use the two fence wedgie sled. Not sure how flipping is any more efficient than moving to another fence. More time is spent aligning the piece to the stop than moving the piece.

As far as the accuracy required, remember that the error is compounded by the number of segments in the ring. An error of half a tenth will give a total error of 1.2 degrees in a 24 segment ring. That would require gluing up half rings and truing them up prior to gluing together.

The angle required is calculated by dividing 360 degrees by the number of segments then dividing by 2 since there are 2 angles per segment.

If you want to use a miter gauge to set the angle you may want to take a look at the Miterset Segments https://miterset.myshopify.com/products/perfect-wood-segments-u-s-miter-gauge. Because it has a very short length to register against the miter bar it takes care in setting it and it doesn’t work with any miter gauge the uses adjustment on both sides of the bar like Incra miter gauges.
 
It has been ten years since I introduced the Wedgie sled. There is a lot more to it that I will share at swat. There is a lot more you can do with a simple sled and a few wedgies. That includes staves and real zig zags, no math, no angle do hickey. It involves extensive use of AI. 😜

Oh, Ancient Intelligence! Geometry!
 
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@Mike Selser I can't seem to quote your post for some reason. Thanks fo rthat.

I wonder if Dave is still doing these? I don't have access to a CNC machine, but, he mentioned his table saw is a Ridgid R4512 table saw...which, is very similar to the Ridgid table saw I own (R4514, IIRC). Wonder if I might be able to ask him to make me a few of those inserts, as I'm not sure if I have any way to make one myself.

I’ve made many zero clearance inserts without using a CNC router. A router table and dado set make it easy but you can make one with a jig saw and some sanding/filing to get it to fit.
 
Back to 5-cut, there are calculators available online, so you don't have to do the arithmetic with paper and pencil. Also, the size of the sheet matters because the magnitude of the side-to-side error increases linearly with the length of cut. That is also why a tool like a machinist square doesn't work. Even if you have a perfect 90 degree machinist square, you can't properly square a crosscut fence for breaking down sheet goods while considering only a length of cut equal to the length of the square.
 
Back to 5-cut, there are calculators available online, so you don't have to do the arithmetic with paper and pencil. Also, the size of the sheet matters because the magnitude of the side-to-side error increases linearly with the length of cut. That is also why a tool like a machinist square doesn't work. Even if you have a perfect 90 degree machinist square, you can't properly square a crosscut fence for breaking down sheet goods while considering only a length of cut equal to the length of the square.
That's why the 5-cut equation proportions the correction as a function of the cut sample and the fence pivot radius.

Tim
 
Not sure where you are seeing a Lot of segmenters using the flip method but in my experience the majority use the two fence wedgie sled. Not sure how flipping is any more efficient than moving to another fence. More time is spent aligning the piece to the stop than moving the piece.

As far as the accuracy required, remember that the error is compounded by the number of segments in the ring. An error of half a tenth will give a total error of 1.2 degrees in a 24 segment ring. That would require gluing up half rings and truing them up prior to gluing together.

The angle required is calculated by dividing 360 degrees by the number of segments then dividing by 2 since there are 2 angles per segment.

If you want to use a miter gauge to set the angle you may want to take a look at the Miterset Segments https://miterset.myshopify.com/products/perfect-wood-segments-u-s-miter-gauge. Because it has a very short length to register against the miter bar it takes care in setting it and it doesn’t work with any miter gauge the uses adjustment on both sides of the bar like Incra miter gauges.

Well, I don't know for sure...I got plugged into watching a bunch of turners who did segmenting years ago, and I've watched them for years. Maybe its better to say, I've watched a LOT of segmented turning videos...however, I am honestly not certian of exactly how many. A lot of them are the same turners, once a week or so, doing their video project. To be fair, they don't all cut their segments the same way. I just don't think I'd ever seen a wedgie sled until now.

If you have recommendations for who I should watch, I'm all ears. This is something I've wanted to do since 2020 when I got into turning, as it was really the reason WHY I got into turning. One way or another, it kept getting delayed. Despite limited funds (turns out the MDF I have, is 1/2" thick, which I don't think I can make work with Jerry's design, so I'll have to buy a sheet of the right stuff), I'm at a point here, where I'm willing to spend a bit of money to make a wedgie sled based on Jerry's video. I need to get this ball rolling here.

Also FWIW, I hadn't seen the third video at the time I wrote that, and now that I have seen the third, and Jerry's comments about turning two different woods even if their angles aren't the same, and how that's the beauty of the wedgie sled's two fence design and using a precise-cut wedge to set them, I get it now. The design is pretty genius.

I do understand accuracy is paramount, which is really why I started this thread. I want to make sure my cuts, for boxes, frames, or anything else, are as accurate as I can make them. Wedgie sled sounds perfect for segmented turning. The sled I just made, I intend to use for boxes and other stuff like that.

I do have one question for you, though. You say an Incra miter gauge won't work with the Miterset Segments you linked. Why is that? I have two, one that came with my table saw, and the Incra. As far as I can tell, they both seem to have the same fundamental design. What exactly is it about the Incra, that would prevent me from using the Miterset Segments?

Here are my two guauges:

IMG_20250429_141728.jpg

IMG_20250429_141738.jpg
 
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I’ve made many zero clearance inserts without using a CNC router. A router table and dado set make it easy but you can make one with a jig saw and some sanding/filing to get it to fit.

I have a bandsaw. I could probably trace the shape of the original insert on some of this 1/2" MDF. Then cut around that shape with both the table saw (strait edges) and bandsaw (curved edges, outset a bit), and sand the curved edges down. I am not sure, however, how to thin the MDF out around the edge so that it doesn't sit above the level of the table...
 
Back to 5-cut, there are calculators available online, so you don't have to do the arithmetic with paper and pencil. Also, the size of the sheet matters because the magnitude of the side-to-side error increases linearly with the length of cut. That is also why a tool like a machinist square doesn't work. Even if you have a perfect 90 degree machinist square, you can't properly square a crosscut fence for breaking down sheet goods while considering only a length of cut equal to the length of the square.

FWIW, I was not using a machinist square to check or align the fence. I have a construction/framing square, that I did my initial alignment with, but I never thought it was going to be good enough. So I did the 5-cut method, which should on its own, give you optimal alignment (if you do it right...and don't have other issues that limit its effectiveness, I guess.)

I'm ok with the math, the trouble I have had is with the physical aspect of actually moving the fence the right amount. And probably with pushing the sled, which I think previously was causing flex in the middle, which I'm pretty sure was throwing off my cuts, and thus measurements, and thus final adjustments.
 
It has been ten years since I introduced the Wedgie sled. There is a lot more to it that I will share at swat. There is a lot more you can do with a simple sled and a few wedgies. That includes staves and real zig zags, no math, no angle do hickey. It involves extensive use of AI. 😜

Oh, Ancient Intelligence! Geometry!

Well, your third video made it clear why the double fence approach is best. Its a pretty ingenious design. The way the two fences are aligned RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER, and allow different woods with different angles to be cut and still very easily form a proper ring. Love it. I'm going to see if I can find a low cost piece of MDF to make my own out of. I did run into a snag yesterday when I started looking at my router, to see if I had the skill to make the curved slots and all. I seem to have lost my insert for the 1/4" shaft bits!! I haven't done much routing, and its been over a year since I last really used it...and I have no idea where that insert has gone. I'm quite bummed. I am not real sure where to order a replacement, but it seems I'm going to have to....

In any case, I am curious, since I'm not sure I have the tools or skill to make accurate enough wedges myself...is there anywhere I could by a set of those for different segment counts (It looks like I'd need 12 at the least, and I guess you could technically go up to as many segments as you wanted, but I'd probably stop around 24 or 32 or something like that to start...)
 
Well, your third video made it clear why the double fence approach is best. Its a pretty ingenious design. The way the two fences are aligned RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER, and allow different woods with different angles to be cut and still very easily form a proper ring. Love it. I'm going to see if I can find a low cost piece of MDF to make my own out of. I did run into a snag yesterday when I started looking at my router, to see if I had the skill to make the curved slots and all. I seem to have lost my insert for the 1/4" shaft bits!! I haven't done much routing, and its been over a year since I last really used it...and I have no idea where that insert has gone. I'm quite bummed. I am not real sure where to order a replacement, but it seems I'm going to have to....

In any case, I am curious, since I'm not sure I have the tools or skill to make accurate enough wedges myself...is there anywhere I could by a set of those for different segment counts (It looks like I'd need 12 at the least, and I guess you could technically go up to as many segments as you wanted, but I'd probably stop around 24 or 32 or something like that to start...)
Segeasy.com has free tutorials and a bunch of wedgies
 
I do have one question for you, though. You say an Incra miter gauge won't work with the Miterset Segments you linked. Why is that? I have two, one that came with my table saw, and the Incra. As far as I can tell, they both seem to have the same fundamental design. What exactly is it about the Incra, that would prevent me from using the Miterset Segments?

Your Incra looks different than mine. Mine has discs on both sides of the bar to adjust for fit. The miter gauge must be registered against the same side of the miter slot in the table saw and the Miterset. The discs on my Incra are too far apart to register in the short slot on the Miterset. As long as your miter gauge has one straight side with no screws or discs protruding on the side it should work. When using it you just need to make sure you register the proper side against the jig.
 
Your Incra looks different than mine. Mine has discs on both sides of the bar to adjust for fit. The miter gauge must be registered against the same side of the miter slot in the table saw and the Miterset. The discs on my Incra are too far apart to register in the short slot on the Miterset. As long as your miter gauge has one straight side with no screws or discs protruding on the side it should work. When using it you just need to make sure you register the proper side against the jig.

Well, I think I'm just going to go with the wedgie sled. I just realized, I didn't really do anything to make sure my tracks (miter+t-track and single t-track) in the sled I just built, were PERFECTLY aligned with the blade. I'm not even sure that is actually possible, given they are in the sled. I didn't think of that before I made the sled, and I'm not sure why. The fence needs to be within a few thousandths...undoubtedly, the tracks need to be as well. I'm certain my tracks are not aligned with the blade well enough to work. They should be fine for the clamps, but the miter track, really wouldn't work. Maybe SOLELY to set angle if I lock the miter gauge down, perhaps...

In any case. It sounds like the wedgie sled is just the easier and better solution to cutting segments, and is quite flexible. So I'll just make that when the time comes. For now, I'm going to use the sled just for boxes, maybe some frames, anything that requires either strait 90 or 45 degree cuts, as I can make those accurately.

I was planning on getting into some segmenting soon here, but I think I'll flip my plans, and make some boxes first, and get into the wedgie sled and segmenting later this year.
 
Well, I think I'm just going to go with the wedgie sled. I just realized, I didn't really do anything to make sure my tracks (miter+t-track and single t-track) in the sled I just built, were PERFECTLY aligned with the blade. I'm not even sure that is actually possible, given they are in the sled. I didn't think of that before I made the sled, and I'm not sure why. The fence needs to be within a few thousandths...undoubtedly, the tracks need to be as well. I'm certain my tracks are not aligned with the blade well enough to work. They should be fine for the clamps, but the miter track, really wouldn't work. Maybe SOLELY to set angle if I lock the miter gauge down, perhaps...

In any case. It sounds like the wedgie sled is just the easier and better solution to cutting segments, and is quite flexible. So I'll just make that when the time comes. For now, I'm going to use the sled just for boxes, maybe some frames, anything that requires either strait 90 or 45 degree cuts, as I can make those accurately.

I was planning on getting into some segmenting soon here, but I think I'll flip my plans, and make some boxes first, and get into the wedgie sled and segmenting later this year.

And maybe save enough to get a Pete Marken sled! https://www.petemarkenwoodturning.com/fixtures-2
 
And maybe save enough to get a Pete Marken sled! https://www.petemarkenwoodturning.com/fixtures-2
Oh, is that a fully premade one? Eh, I don't mind making my own. I think the only thing I may not quite be able to make properly is the zero clearance insert. I think I can make the sled and the stop (which I just found a PDF with plans for on Jerry's site) pretty easily. I have some ideas for maybe making a "table" that would go on the other side of the blade, without actually needing to have an entire insert, which should alleviate the need to CNC or otherwise machine an insert that is truly level with the saw table.
 
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