Bowl gouge type and size doubt

[Dean Center]

Michael, sharpening for woodturning is totally different than sharpening for carving or planes. It's not nearly as time consuming or fussy.

If you are turning a 12" bowl, the rim is going by at about 90 kph. (Yes, that's kilometers) Or about 25 meters per second. How long would it take you to plane 25 meters? Would your plane be dull by then? I'm confident you would not like to take the time to resharpen your plane after every 3 seconds of use.

It takes time and practice to learn to sharpen a turning tool, but you don't have to get it sharp enough to shave with. (There are going to be some forum members who chime in that an extremely sharp turning tool is very helpful. I respect them, but most turners who did not start out as a carver first, don't feel the need to get their tools that sharp. KISS, guys) After all, it'll be 'dull' after a few seconds of use. Woodturners resharpen often, but only spend 30 seconds refreshing their tool.

A jig designed to make each time at the grinder the same as the last will help greatly in achieving a good edge quickly and easily. The Oneway Wolverine system is probably the most commonly used, but there are others. All of them will seem pretty expensive in your circumstance. However, you can also make your own system. You will need to make a tool holder with a foot on it and a pocketed sliding piece that extends from the bottom of your grinder, but with your experience, this should be fairly easy. David Ellsworth, an extremely well known and expert woodturner, developed such a set up years ago and you can probably find instructions for making it by searching online. If you can't find something, ask here and I'm sure we can come up with instructions or plans.

 

[Michael Perez]

Hello Dean, thanks so much for taking the time to respond and explain many details, first I was thinking in doing it free hand just with a simple tool rest, but maybe I’m going to need some special jig.
I’m kinda confused with sharpening system and since I haven’t had the chance to see or try any don't know wich one could be the most appropriate. I just realized that anything I choose is going to be expensive.
Robert sorby sharpening system I think is pro edge -not many reviews I could find.
Tormek- many reviews I read, complain that it takes too much time for certain applications like removing much material.
Slow speed grinder + CBN wheel + Wolverine- according with my research the most popular and recommended (it’s going to be more expensive than my mini Rikon lathe )
But if it’s the best and it’s a must maybe I should start buying first the Wolvering jig and in the future the low speed grinder then the CBN wheel. To my point of view maybe the Robert sorby is more practical just one machine but don’t want to regret and have no idea how it will perform.
greetings

 

[Doug Freeman]

Dean’s post is oh so relevant in this case. I also recommend a jig for bowl or spindle gouges but
you do not have to have one of the commercial ones. They can be shop made. You may need to make 2 or 3 with different leg angles to get different grinds. I’m no expert with diy jigs, others may be able to help.

DIY Ellsworth style jig from Capn Eddie Castelin

http://eddiecastelin.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/ellsworthsharp.54183427.pdf

Typically an 8” slow speed (1750 rpm at 60 hz) or a belt sander, 1”-4” wide, are used. The pro edge is just a 1” belt sander. The jig pivot position to the abrasive is the important part, as detailed in the above document. Many approaches could be made to work, at the end of the day you just need a way to reliably position a given tool the same way each time it is sharpened.

For flat tools (skew, scrapers, parting tool, bedan) a sturdy platform of some kind that can change angle, and be moved in/out from the abrasive (keeping the gap from the platform to the abrasive small as the platform angle is changed) is all it takes.

Hope this gives you something to work with to figure something out. Study the various systems and design your own that you can make. There is a lot of online info.

 

[Michael Perez]

Hello, thank you so much for sure it’s helping me a lot to understand it better before I start, maybe today I’ll be placing the order for the gouges.
While it is in the way I have some time to study and check the sharpening jigs system and also we have many info in the web. I still haven’t search about diy jigs for turning tools sharpening, maybe because when I started in woodworking I was very enthusiastic in making my own tools and jigs, and after I tuned some hand planes, honing jigs, bandsaw fence and table, dust extraction system, make my own tail vise, drawknife, etc, thanks to God happy in most of the cases, i realized that the most important was learning and experience very interesting and some time frustrated ( for example the case of cheap honing guide and regular pivoting vises, I ended buying the Richard kell honing guide and veritas carvers vise). So I learned that in most of the cases that buying something made by an expert is more efficient and at the end of the day less expensive, but of course not in all the cases for example I have my handsaw fence for cutting small squares and works perfect no need to buy it.
Today I’ll be looking for and watching videos for sharpening systems.
I feel very happy for receiving all your help and support honestly thank you so much.

 

[Pat Patterson]

Thank you so much,I have some experience in woodworkig making characters and I understand very well that if you don’t know how sharpen you can’t work. It is also my concern how long should it take, because learn how to sharpen properly my chisels, plane iron and gouges took me long time.
For that reason in the first moment, even though not my favorite I was about to start with carbides ones. But I just find a wood turner that gave me a couple of lessons and he strongly recommend me to start with traditional ones and that’s what I’m doing.

If you get a Wolverine system with a verigrind jig $165 on amazon, you will be sharpening like a pro in no time at all. Of course if you do not already have a grinder (8" preferred) you will need one but you should be able to pick one up locally used if you have craigs list of facebook market place locally.
Pat

 

[Dean Center]

Certainly, you can sharpen free hand from a platform. That's how I learned to sharpen, and after 2 years, I'd finally managed to get decent results. Then I bought a commercial system and could immediately sharpen more quickly and consistently. And use up less steel in the process.

Also, you don't need a fancy grinder or wheels to begin with. If you have a full speed grinder (3500 rpm) with gray abrasive wheels, you will have to use a very, very light touch, but you can do it. A full speed grinder with somewhat more sophisticated, "friable" stone wheels will allow you to sharpen with less attention to the very light touch. A half speed or slow speed grinder and friable wheels is a very good combination, with much more room to be imperfect with your sharpening technique.

Check out the link Doug provided to Captain Eddie Castelin. If it's humanly possible to do something with homemade gear, Cap'n Eddie can figure out a way to do it. (It may not be the best way, but it'll be one way)

If you do go with a platform and free hand sharpening, a solid, stable platform is very important. The thin sheet metal ones that come with the grinder are generally terrible.

 

[Michael Perez]

If you get a Wolverine system with a verigrind jig $165 on amazon, you will be sharpening like a pro in no time at all. Of course if you do not already have a grinder (8" preferred) you will need one but you should be able to pick one up locally used if you have craigs list of facebook market place locally.
Pat

Hello thank you, today just decided to buy the Wolverine system with the vari-grind and good quality gouges . I agree that it’s going to save me time and maybe reduce the chanche of damaging my new gouges that I still haven’t bought.
Fortunately I just have an old grinder that my father gave me to sell or keep, now I don’t know if I have to buy knew grinding wheels.
I Think it’s going to be a good investment that is going to help me to enjoy my work and not regretting in the future.
thank you so much now Feel more confident.

 

[Michael Perez]

Certainly, you can sharpen free hand from a platform. That's how I learned to sharpen, and after 2 years, I'd finally managed to get decent results. Then I bought a commercial system and could immediately sharpen more quickly and consistently. And use up less steel in the process.

Also, you don't need a fancy grinder or wheels to begin with. If you have a full speed grinder (3500 rpm) with gray abrasive wheels, you will have to use a very, very light touch, but you can do it. A full speed grinder with somewhat more sophisticated, "friable" stone wheels will allow you to sharpen with less attention to the very light touch. A half speed or slow speed grinder and friable wheels is a very good combination, with much more room to be imperfect with your sharpening technique.

Check out the link Doug provided to Captain Eddie Castelin. If it's humanly possible to do something with homemade gear, Cap'n Eddie can figure out a way to do it. (It may not be the best way, but it'll be one way)

If you do go with a platform and free hand sharpening, a solid, stable platform is very important. The thin sheet metal ones that come with the grinder are generally terrible.

Hello it was just the point that make me takes the decision of going for the Wolverine. Today I just realized that the grinder has a very thin poor quality rest that vibrates when the machine is running, so i sent a picture of my old grinder and asked to my turning teacher if it’s enough or I need to get a decent tool rest and obviously the answer was yes.
So when looking for buying a tool rest first i was thinking in the veritas that it’s around $70 and it’s nice but it will not accomplish the task needed and after all maybe I still need to buy the Wolverine.
Thank you again and greetings

 

[Michael Perez]

Hello it was just the point that make me takes the decision of going for the Wolverine. Today I just realized that the grinder has a very thin poor quality rest that vibrates when the machine is running, so i sent a picture of my old grinder and asked to my turning teacher if it’s enough or I need to get a decent tool rest and obviously the answer was yes.
So when looking for buying a tool rest first i was thinking in the veritas that it’s around $70 and it’s nice but it will not accomplish the task needed and after all maybe I still need to buy the Wolverine.
Thank you again and greetings

Sorry I forgot to ask you if you have heard about this grinding stone: zische Z150 , because there is a store in Peru that sells this brand. I’ve tried the ceramic wet stones for sharpening my woodworking tools and the 3000 and 8000 work great ,really excellent, but in this case I don’t know how they perform or if it’s ‘friable" , please if you or someone has any experience , reference or advice I’ll be so thankful.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've never heard of that brand. Is it aluminum oxide? You don't want silicon carbide because the grit isn't as sharp as aluminum oxide. If it is aluminum oxide, you need a hardness rating of J or K for sharpening high-speed steel tools. The center hole size is an important factor. This one is 12 millimeters. It needs to exactly match the diameter of the grinder shaft. If the shaft is ½ inch (which is slightly larger than 12 mm), the grinding wheel won't fit.

 

[Pat Patterson]

Hello it was just the point that make me takes the decision of going for the Wolverine. Today I just realized that the grinder has a very thin poor quality rest that vibrates when the machine is running, so i sent a picture of my old grinder and asked to my turning teacher if it’s enough or I need to get a decent tool rest and obviously the answer was yes.
So when looking for buying a tool rest first i was thinking in the veritas that it’s around $70 and it’s nice but it will not accomplish the task needed and after all maybe I still need to buy the Wolverine.
Thank you again and greetings

I was cleaning off my workbench this evening and I found my original homemade wolverine platform. You could use this with the Varigrind or a homemade Ellsworth jig.



Pat

 

[Pat Patterson]

Sorry I forgot to ask you if you have heard about this grinding stone: zische Z150 , because there is a store in Peru that sells this brand. I’ve tried the ceramic wet stones for sharpening my woodworking tools and the 3000 and 8000 work great ,really excellent, but in this case I don’t know how they perform or if it’s ‘friable" , please if you or someone has any experience , reference or advice I’ll be so thankful.View attachment 45915

Zische is a manufacturer of quality abrasives out of Germany. I went to their website and found they make a white wheel which is what most folks use. I could not find any info on the brown ones. See if your local vendor sells a white wheel.
Pat

 

[Michael Perez]

Zische is a manufacturer of quality abrasives out of Germany. I went to their website and found they make a white wheel which is what most folks use. I could not find any info on the brown ones. See if your local vendor sells a white wheel.
Pat

Hello I see in his web just 2 types of grinding wheels one orange 150 grit and the other pink 36 grit.
And there is no many info about it. Thanks you so much

 

[Michael Perez]

I've never heard of that brand. Is it aluminum oxide? You don't want silicon carbide because the grit isn't as sharp as aluminum oxide. If it is aluminum oxide, you need a hardness rating of J or K for sharpening high-speed steel tools. The center hole size is an important factor. This one is 12 millimeters. It needs to exactly match the diameter of the grinder shaft. If the shaft is ½ inch (which is slightly larger than 12 mm), the grinding wheel won't fit.

Hello, I really don’t know from what kind of material is made there’s no info niether about hardness. I’ll have to ask the seller, thank you so much those are very important considerations that I didn’t notice if you don’t mention.
I’m conscious about the center hole because it’s european and they work in millimeters, i thought to solve it with a bushing but I just realized that european size is smaller and I’ll need a bigger hole, don’t know if i can find an adapter and don’t know how it will perform with it. Now I’m going to check my grinder shaft but I guess it’s 1/2 maybe it’s not a good option.
Just right now when checking the wheel i just saw in his webstore they have just added a new stock of slow motor just when same as hock sharpening system but the one he sells is bare at around $ 400. I was shocked I’m going to die I was thinking in buying a slow grinder in the future and he is the only one that has a slow motor here.
hahahha should I buy or should I don’t now. If I buy it I will be trouble and if I don’t It will be double.
thank you again for all your observations really important for not going into a mistake.

 

[Doug Freeman]

@Michael Perez the Wolverine system you bought should have a platform for flat tool sharpening, solving the grinder tool rest problem.

Jigs are not needed for flat tools - easy to learn to sharpen them. Platform sharpening gouges is completely different and much more difficult, why I do not recommend when starting out.

The system comes with an adj arm for each wheel on a grinder. It does NOT come with the Varigrind jig for gouges, unless the supplier included it in the pkg advertised. Perhaps you can post a link to what you bought. A diy jig can be used with the wolverine v arm, if you dont get the varigrind for whatever reason.

With you location just want to make sure you are getting all the things you will need. Dont want you to think you have everything on the way only to find out you missed something and have to go through the shipping and waiting again.

Is your existing grinder 6” or 8” wheels? 6” works just not as well - difficult to get wheels wide enough and they dont have as much dia to wear down.

 

[robo hippy]

The Wolverine system does come with a sharpening platform. I did have the ones from Veritas, and didn't like them. Mostly because they were not very sturdy and would always move, especially if I put a little pressure on them. They are not made to put up and take back down again. With the Wolverine system, many will cut or grind out a hole for the wheel to fit into so the pivot point stays closer to the wheel. Sharpening gouges on a platform is not easy unless you have done a lot of turning. The spindle roughing gouges and scrapers are all sharpened on the platform, as well as skew chisels.

robo hippy

 

[Michael Perez]

@Michael Perez the Wolverine system you bought should have a platform for flat tool sharpening, solving the grinder tool rest problem.

Jigs are not needed for flat tools - easy to learn to sharpen them. Platform sharpening gouges is completely different and much more difficult, why I do not recommend when starting out.

The system comes with an adj arm for each wheel on a grinder. It does NOT come with the Varigrind jig for gouges, unless the supplier included it in the pkg advertised. Perhaps you can post a link to what you bought. A diy jig can be used with the wolverine v arm, if you dont get the varigrind for whatever reason.

With you location just want to make sure you are getting all the things you will need. Dont want you to think you have everything on the way only to find out you missed something and have to go through the shipping and waiting again.

Is your existing grinder 6” or 8” wheels? 6” works just not as well - difficult to get wheels wide enough and they dont have as much dia to wear down.

Thank you I’m just about to buy only waiting for response of the buyer, I’ll buy the Wolverine at veritas they have good price but they don’t specify what model is it looks like the number one but it says that has a 3/4 capacity dont know if it’s the 1/8 to 5/8 or the 1/2 to 1 1/4 (i guess I need the small cos I’m going to buy 3/8 and 1/2 inch bowl and spindle gouge)

Vari-Grind Accessory for Wolverine Basic Sharpening Jig - Lee Valley Tools

www.leevalley.com

and this is the other set looks like it’s complete or maybe I’m misunderstanding

Wolverine Basic Sharpening Jig - Lee Valley Tools

www.leevalley.com

I think if I buy this 2 items I’m complete or not yet?

 

[Michael Perez]

The Wolverine system does come with a sharpening platform. I did have the ones from Veritas, and didn't like them. Mostly because they were not very sturdy and would always move, especially if I put a little pressure on them. They are not made to put up and take back down again. With the Wolverine system, many will cut or grind out a hole for the wheel to fit into so the pivot point stays closer to the wheel. Sharpening gouges on a platform is not easy unless you have done a lot of turning. The spindle roughing gouges and scrapers are all sharpened on the platform, as well as skew chisels.

robo hippy

Thank you so much, I’m not going for the veritas definitely I’m going to buy the Wolverine at Lee Valley
don’t want to regret.
sincerely I’m very thankful with every recommendation I’ve received .

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Thank you I’m just about to buy only waiting for response of the buyer, I’ll buy the Wolverine at veritas they have good price but they don’t specify what model is it looks like the number one but it says that has a 3/4 capacity dont know if it’s the 1/8 to 5/8 or the 1/2 to 1 1/4 (i guess I need the small cos I’m going to buy 3/8 and 1/2 inch bowl and spindle gouge)

Vari-Grind Accessory for Wolverine Basic Sharpening Jig - Lee Valley Tools

www.leevalley.com

and this is the other set looks like it’s complete or maybe I’m misunderstanding

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...2-wolverine-basic-sharpening-jig?item=66B0440

I think if I buy this 2 items I’m complete or not yet?

One note on the Wolverine. Do not use it as shown in that picture . If the gouge slips below the wheel is a bad accident. I never used it like that but at a suggestion from Jeff Hornung I did cut that bar shorter. So not it is safe and takes less room.

 

[Michael Perez]

One note on the Wolverine. Do not use it as shown in that picture . If the gouge slips below the wheel is a bad accident. I never used it like that but at a suggestion from Jeff Hornung I did cut that bar shorter. room.So not it is safe and takes less

Thank you, do you mean that it’s not safe using only the bar with bowl or spindle gouge or it’s still not safe with the Vari grin?

I was cleaning off my work bench this evening and I found my original homemade wolverine platform. You could use this with the Verigrind or a home made Ellsworth jig.
Pat

Thank you so much. First I was thinking in doing my own but since I have to buy a tool rest I saw that the basic Wolverine comes with the tool rest and platform.

 

[Dave Landers]

Gerald means don't do this:

It is too easy for the tool to catch and be slammed down by the force of the wheel. Probably will break the wheel and maybe the tool. And you may get blood on your bench. There's no reason to use the arm that way when a platform is just as easy and much safer.

 

[Michael Perez]

Gerald means don't do this:
View attachment 45925
It is too easy for the tool to catch and be slammed down by the force of the wheel. Probably will break the wheel and maybe the tool. And you may get blood on your bench. There's no reason to use the arm that way when a platform is just as easy and much safer.

Thank you, I first didn’t understand but I just looked for Jeff Hornung and find a video in YouTube and now I have very clear that the v arm is just for the Vari grind. Thank you for all the recommendations, thanks to God I posted the link that showed the picture and have the luck that Gerald Lawrence pointed out this imprudent way of working with this jig don’t understand why they still have this picture.