Broken Handles and Bent Tangs... something wrong?

[Gary Aitken]

I don't spend much time on the lathes, but my wife does.
I'm frustrated, as is she, by tangs bending or tools breaking out of handles.

For my own sanity, is this a common, expected occurrance?
She's turning what I would call medium-sized things, like 6" - 14" bowls and lamps,
generally out of walnut, maple and juniper but sometimes something soft like aspen.
Blanks are often rough sections of tree; sometimes maple or aspen is green.
Also laminated 8/4 roughly cut to shape.
So the initial shaping involves some pretty rough work which has to be hard on tools.

She's pretty good about getting the rest as close to the work as possible.
She recently bent her favorite scraper, which is a 1" job that had a 12" handle;
the steel has "HSS" engraved on it but otherwise I don't know much about it.
The handle was extended with a piece of stiff black PVC tubing shoved over it.

For bent tangs, how do people repair them for reuse?
On not-so-good tools I've welded a stiffiner on both sides across the tang/blade area,
but I suspect the heat weakened the steel so much it's probably no better than cold
hammering it back.

 

[Michelle Rich]

NO IT IS NOT NORMAL>>STOP RIGHT NOW! GREAT CHANCE OF INJURY

Get whatever you are turning as ROUND AS YOU CAN..then turn it.

Watch videos on youtube and see how far the tools are over the rest..if you are bending tools, you are doing it horribly wrong.

 

[hockenbery]

Double on stop before you get seriously injured or worse!

Bending tools is not normal and is caused by a combination of bad technique and poor choice of tools.

Try to get some hands-on. Instruction. Or at least get some good DVDS ON bowl turning

Properly done woodturning is one of the safest woodworking activities.

 

[hockenbery]

Gary,

Many of us woodturner did dumb things starting out.
Find someone who has gotten the dumb thing out of their system to help you and your wife get started.

There are four AAW chapters in Montana. Hopefully you live close to one
They are in
Billings, Bozeman, great falls, Columbia falls.

Chapters are filled with woodturners who got their start by being coached by chapter members

Use this link select Montana or a neighboring state or province if you live close to the border.
http://www.woodturner.org/search/newsearch.asp

Click on the chapter close by. There will be phone numbers for the chapter
Ask them about someone who might help you get started.
Attending a meeting. Most of the chapters welcome visitors.

Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

I agree with Michelle and Al, STOP NOW. Even the cheapest quality tools don't have this problem. If there is a turning club in your area, it would be well worth attending a meeting and finding a mentor who could help with identifying problems in tool usage. Based on the limited amount of information that you gave, my guess is that the problem is caused by improper tool use. When a tool is being used correctly, you should be able to control it by just holding it between your thumb and forefinger or at the very worst, just gentle hand holding. Adding an extension to the tool handle reinforces my feeling that something is seriously wrong with the way that the tools are being used.

 

[Richard Coers]

Where did she learn to turn? What quality of tools? Cheap Chinese tools can have poor heat treating. I agree that there must be some basic tool useage problems. I don't like to suggest YouTube as a learning tool because there is some really bad techniques shown. Find a mentor is the best advice.

 

[hockenbery]

Gary,
Sent you a PM

AL

 

[robo hippy]

Well, for sure, it is a problem with tool presentation, and possible cheap tools. A hands on session would really really help, which is where clubs come in. Dull tools could also be a problem. Next to a hands on session, videos are pretty good, but some are great and others are scary, and if you are just beginning, it is difficult to figure out. I have a bunch of bowl turning clips up on You Tube if you type in robo hippy. Since the Star Trek transporters haven't been invented, I can't stop on by for a saw dust session, and neither can you...

robo hippy

 

[odie]

There are some well done professional videos that are good for learning the basics, as well.

I originally started prior to when any videos were available, so my first learning experience was through books that were available at the time, and that's a good starting place now, too.

The very first video that was available was from a well known Australian woodturner, Richard Raffan......His book, and companion video are very good kick-starter references, which I have experience with, and can personally recommend.......

click:
https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/98/5152/Fox-Chapel-Turning-Wood-Book-&-DVD-Set

I agree you can get a lot of bad, and unsafe advice on YouTube, as well as in local clubs.....these are well meaning people, for sure, but very little of it is at the professional level you can find in the videos available from a reputable source.

ko

 

[Gary Aitken]

thanks all, a bit more info

For the record, I think she's bent three tools over about seven years. But admidtedly still lots to learn. She's also had a fair amount of instruction and studied numerous videos, dvds and youtube, multiple times and does so on a regular basis. However, as a fairly well-versed tool user myself, I would say she is not a
"natural" when it comes to mechanical things. What she lacks in native intuitive ability she makes up for by being much smarter than I am and having a much better memory.

I think this last tool was bent, and cracked the handle while being used to rough out a 15" platter or bowl; I can't really remember. Our bandsaw is ancient with a narrow depth of cut (~6"); the coarse blades I have don't have a wide enough kerf for rough cutting green wood. So usually I do chainsaw art to get the blanks kinda-sorta-round. I think in this case I had cut a hexagon, and she was having to take off the corners. I've since decided to turn them into dodecagons before giving them back to put on the lathe. She doesn't have any problems when starting from a blank made from 8/4 wood cut roughly to shape and laminated up. I think she may not be moving the toolrest in often enough; she agrees.

Al -- What do you mean by poor choice of tools? (Thanks for the ptr, btw) Ugh. Closest big town is Missoula, 65 miles away; the 4 with AAW chapters are all a couple of hours away.

I agree with the notion that adding an extension to a tool is generally a bad idea, an indicator one is using it for something for which it wasn't intended. But sometimes you simply can't get the rest in as close as you would like. For example the above-mentioned large hexagon. Perhaps in that case one should start in the center and work out so you're not attacking the corners head on.

She started learning to turn in DC / Virginia at an AAW club and was pretty regular. However, during the time she was there she had a smaller lathe and was turning smaller stuff in general, so any problem(s) may not have been as much in evidence. I think her initial tools were hand-me-downs, and probably not the best quality. The particular one which she recently bent was a Benjamins Best 1" scraper; I don't know where they are made. I just looked and they are pretty inexpensive so probably Chinese. I've had so many problems with Chinese tools and hardware like screws that I will pay double to get something well-made anywhere else. The tool only comes as a round nose as far as I can see, so apparently she sharpened it to a square edge. As stated above, I think she was using it to rough out a bowl which may have been a problem, but I'm not sure. I don't know squat about lathe tools and which is used for what and why so I can't evaluate that. I have seen different people using different tools for what looks like the same task. Many ways to skin a cat or build a cabinet or make a bowl; I just don't know what's appropriate in this case and what's not. She's pretty good about keeping them sharp; or at least resharpening. Sharpens fairly often and notices when they don't cut well.

Robo -- Looks like you're in Oregon so we may fire up the transporter one of these days (family in Portland and Newport) and seek some mentoring; she would enjoy that.

 

[Bill Boehme]

When I first started turning a dozen years ago, I was looking for a set of tools. One of the employees at the local Rockler Hardware was showing me various tools and pointed to the set of Benjamin's Best and said that they are cheap in both price and quality and recommended that I spend a bit more to get better quality tools. I'm glad that I took his suggestion. From what I recall, the Benjamin's Best tools were all made from flat bar stock (at that time -- don't know about now) that was bent into a U shape and of course had a weak tang. One of the deficiencies of some of the cheap Asian Import tools is that they only harden and temper about an inch or two from the tip using an induction heating system. The remainder of the tool is left in an annealed state.

Here are a couple thoughts about a "wrong tool" for a task might be: When you start out with a piece of wood mounted on the lathe so that the grain direction is perpendicular to the spin axis (which is how a platter or bowl is usually done) and also that it starts out square, or octagonal, etc, then the best tool for getting the piece round is a bowl gouge. Unfortunately, some of the BB bowl gouges and spindle gouges look more like an SRG (spindle roughing gouge). And, I suspect that they might have some of the same faults that an SRG would have. So, I would say that if you are using an SRG or something that looks like it is close to an SRG or ground like an SRG to knock the corners off a blank, it is time to get a real bowl gouge which is more suited for this task. Another tool that should not be used for this purpose is a acraper. Using a scraper for roughing can be very dangerous.

I will mention that Reed Gray (AKA Robo Hippy) uses a scraper for most of his bowl turning, but he is a very experienced professional woodturner. Maybe in a couple decades I will try it myself, but not yet.

 

[hockenbery]

. Al -- What do you mean by poor choice of tools? .

In general Bowl gouges are the tool of choice for bowls and platters.
Almost all the top professional bowl turner used the bowl gouge which is a solid bar of steel with a flute ground in the bar.
These tools take a more controlled cut and catches are much less violent than catches with a scraper.
Roughing chain sawn Blanks with the interrupted cut ( air and wood) is much easier and more controlled with a bowl gouge.

IMHO Tanged tools like scrapers and spindle roughing gouges should not be used for roughing bowls or platters.
Scrapers are best used as a finishing tool where they take tiny bits of wood off the finished surface and the spindle roughing gouge only for spindle turning.

Whole bowls can be turned with scrapers but it takes a lot of skill to do it without getting beat up by the tool..
Reed gray is really good with scrapers but few people have his skill with those tools.
Bowl gouges do the same job perhaps more efficiently and with better results.
If scrapers produced more bowls better or faster all the professional bowl turners would use scrapers.
They don't because they make more bowls better and faster with bowl gouges.

My 2 cents on tools for bowls

Al

 

[Brian Myers]

I've had Benjamin's Best and Harbor Freight tools for years and have never bent one nor cracked a handle. Sounds like she is extending the tool so far out over the tool post she really is pushing her luck. Some tools such as Benjamin's Best 1/4" spindle gouge can't be extended very far past the tool rest. It's thin and will bend easily, at least mine will as it is an older one where the flute runs most the length of the tool. Looking at pics of the current one , they only grind the flute down the length of the tool a short distance. The one inch scraper should not bend, unless you got a bad tool which possible , her technique needs to be checked/change before she seriously gets hurt. Out of curiosity does she get a lot catches when turning?

 

[Jamie Straw]

Some suggested videos...

Here are 3 videos and 1 thread that may help. I'm a newbie and very safety conscious at my age, so hope these might be useful:

Stay Out of the Line of Fire Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4qIM_-Jzgk

No Catch Bowl Turning #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBNAkRe9bxw&list=PLNv2UZA8fY-R1lr0qZfguUHqp82lzLwEp&index=3

No Catch Bowl Turning #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBydG7sWSRI&list=PLNv2UZA8fY-R1lr0qZfguUHqp82lzLwEp&index=2

This thread isn't directly on target, but Hockenbery's response (8/9/15, 5:44 am) addresses a progressive approach to bowl turning that could be extrapolated further to your wife's level
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/sho...-blanks-given-lowest-speed-of-lathe&highlight=

Please have her be careful and make sure she's using an appropriate tool for the job.

 

[Richard Coers]

Gary, One of the most important and safety related tip I learned, very early on, is not to just go after the outside diameter of the bowl or platter at the start. Begin cutting on the bottom face, and rotate around the corner to get the outside diameter. That way you start cutting on an smoother surface, and then nibble away at the out of round section. Introducing the tool directly into the outside diameter is like a train wreck! Learned that from John Jordan a long time ago!

 

[Jamie Straw]

Referral that might be closer?

You might try contacting one of the AAW chapters and ask if there's a mentor-turner closer to your town.

 

[john lucas]

Ditto what Richard said about starting at the bottom and working your way out instead of just trying to go horizontally across the outside of a bowl blank to get it round. It's a lot easier on you and the tool. You might want to look at the Hunter Hercules tool. It has the advantage of working like a scraper so the learning curve is extremely easy. It has a very thick tang which you aren't going to break, and if you rotate it to about 45 degrees it will cut like bowl gouge for cleaner cuts.
What it sounds like may be happening is she's catching one of those protrusions that sticks out beyond the others and is taking too large of a bite all at once. This hits the tool really hard and can damage most tools with tangs. A technique I use I call the fulcrum. Here' what the problem is. When cutting really out of round blanks, especially with a scraper, it's too easy to push the tool forward. when you hit a large air space between those protrusions you push the tool in and then it takes a really large bite out of the next protrusion that hits it. What I do is to anchor the tool with my left hand on the tool rest. This becomes the fulcrum of the tool. then I pivot the tool into the work by moving the handle taking a fairly small controlled bite. I keep pushing the handle out which pivots the cutter through the work but it a much more controlled manner. This way your taking a fairly small bite per revolution and it's not jumping into a hole. This produces an arc shaped cut which isn't perfect for bowls but you simply pull the tool out of the cut move your left hand a little further and do the same cut again. Pretty soon you have the whole bowl very close to round and can go back to the regular cuts. this type of pivoting cut has reduced the stress on my shoulders while roughing out large out of round blanks and greatly reduced the stress on the tool. This cut works well with scrapers or bowl gouges and really works well with the Hunter Hercules. Unfortunately I don't show the fulcrum cut in this video but this will explain how to use the Hunter Hercules. It has a Carbide cutter that is extremely sharp and holds an edge for a very long time. The cutters are replaceable. The cutter face is recessed so the actuall cutting angle is about 27 degrees which is very sharp compared to most scrapers which are anywhere from 45 degrees to about 70 degrees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrLN8SQ8ms

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Gary, you have come to the right place. Lots of highly experienced turners weighing in. I've only been turning about three years so can't add much there, but I will say it sounds like a better bandsaw would be a good investment. Also Carter makes a circle cutting jig for the bandsaw you may find useful: http://www.carterproducts.com/band-saw-products/accuright

In terms of good tools if you want to upgrade or get a good bowl gouge these two are a bit pricy, but excellent quality and used by many turners:

http://www.thompsonlathetools.com
http://d-waytools.com

If she can use the advice given she may have had her last bent tool

Doug

 

[robo hippy]

When bowl turning, most of the time, it is turn the outside first, then reverse and turn the inside. First order of business when roughing is to true up the blank. I always, even with dimensional lumber, will start nibbling away at the center of the blank first. One reason is that the wood is spinning slower. The other is that as you work your way out, you get a better 'feel' for what you are cutting, including corners, than you do if you start out by trying to make the blank round. So rough the bottom surface first, work your way down the side, then I also work the face/top of the bowl before doing finish cuts on the outside. Now, especially with chainsawn blanks (I have one video up on that), you want to start in the center.

Al and Bill, our club had a 5 minute challenge once, what can you finish turn in 5 minutes. I took a 3 by 10 inch bowl blank and finished it in 4:45. The thing with scrapers, is that they are a forgotten tool in bowl turning. My opinion is that if you think they are not efficient, you don't really know how to use them. If for no other reason, when roughing, I never take them off the wood. With a gouge, you start at the top, go down a ways and then stop. Then come back to the top and start over. With the scraper, I sweep from side to side, push, pull, and the tool never comes off the wood. While guys like Mike Mahoney and Glen Lucas may have turned more bowls than I have, if they are faster than I am, it is not by much. A scraping cut does not leave a clean surface, except on end grain, and that is why it is called a 'roughing' cut... Yes, many will not agree with me till they see me turn, then the comment is 'gee, I may have to rethink scrapers'. The burrs from my CBN wheels will last as long as any gouge edge I have ever had. The tool of choice for the coastal Oregon Myrtle wood production turners is a scraper. Myrtle is abrasive, and the cutter is tantung which is a cast metal, and almost as hard as carbide, but easily sharpened on a standard grinding wheel. I do remember Odie commenting once that his scraper edges never lasted very long, and that one I can't figure out given my experience with them, even using standard M2 HSS.

I figure one cause of catches is extending out too far off the tool rest. It is a lever, or maybe teeter-totter if you will. As soon as you feel your tool starting to dip or vibrate, move the tool rest. Using a tighter grip or longer handle just puts too much stress on everything from the mount, to the tool rest, to the tool, and to your body. One reason I prefer shaped bowl rests is that I don't have to move the tool rest as often. Better to move the tool rest than to have a spectacular catch. If you are hanging out too far, and trying to trim off the corners of a chainsawn blank, you are asking for trouble, and no matter how big your tool is, you will catch.

Odie, that Raffen book and video were my first turning instruction experiences too. I thought every one turned that way...

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

Reed, the reason that I said to NOT use a scraper to turn a bowl is because I don't think that it is the best thing for a beginner. The OP is a beginner and you aren't. Because of your experience, you could probably turn a bowl with a butter knife.

IIRC, you said that you use the scraper with the bevel contacting the wood as if it were a fluteless bowl gouge, is that correct?

 

[robo hippy]

Bill,
Yes, scrapers can be used with a bevel rubbing cut. Any tool that has a bevel can do a bevel rubbing cut. With a scraper, it is done with the tool up on edge, never flat on the tool rest. Mine have a 70 degree bevel, which is what I have on my fluteless gouges. Some of my other BOB (bottom of bowl) tools have 60 degree bevels, and a scraper with that angle can also be used. Just like a skew, you use the lower 1/2 to 1/3 of the cutting edge. If you attempt to work above the center line, you will get a catch. I prefer one with a ) nose profile, and drop the handle a bit because once you drop the handle, there is no way you can contact the upper 1/2 of the cutting edge. The other profile is the swept back grinds, and mostly the inside shape/swept back to the left side. You cut with the tip. I do show that with the scraper video clips I did. Now, all that being said, I prefer the fluteless gouge as it is made for that type of cut. It always puzzles me to see some bowl turners who, when doing a shear scrape with a scraper have to raise the handle. I figure this is because the idea of 'raise the handle' when using a scraper is good advice when doing scraping cuts, tool flat on the tool rest. However, when shear scraping, they work far better with the handle lowered.

Now as for beginners using scrapers, why do you think the carbide tipped scrapers are so popular? Instead of the big heavy bowl scrapers that some manufacturers push, they are smaller, much easier to manage cutting edges. Yes, they are scrapers. Handing a beginner any industrial size tool is probably a mistake, and it makes no difference if it is a gouge, scraper, or skew. Way too easy to bite off way more than you can chew, which at least results in squealing and slipping belt, and at most, broken handles/bowl/tool rest, and some times even the turner. Outside of improper tool presentation, this is probably the biggest cause of catches. Personally, I don't think either is taught correctly or emphasized enough. One of the new video clips I am preparing to do will deal with this. Brendan Stemp's two part series on catchless bowl turning is a good start, but I have a lot to add to it.

robo hippy

 

[Gary Aitken]

Thanks all; but I'd still like an answer

Thanks all for the pointers and advice.

For those who have had them, I would still like to know if you discard a tool with a bent tang, or the process you use to straighten and re-use it. Since I now happen to have one...

I'm sure I can find a use for the steel in some other project since it's a flat scraper, but it seems a shame not to straighten and remount if possible.

Gary

 

[Bill Boehme]

As long as it doesn't appear to be about to break, I don't know of any reason why the tang couldn't be straightened. After all, when used correctly, there is very little bending moment force on the tang. A big hammer and an anvil should be sufficient for straightening it.

 

[john lucas]

Just look at it carefully. If there aren't any cracks in it go ahead and straighten it. I've done several for local turners who bent their tools during the learning phase.

 

[hockenbery]

I agree that if you can't see any cracks it should work fine if used correctly.
Keep a short handle on it.

Roughing with scrapers creates a lot of down ward stress.
Keeping the tool rest close put most of the stress into the tool rest.
As distance increases the stress goes into the shoulder, elbow and wrist.

A lot of scraper turners use a small scraper 1/4" wide in a steel bar.
Myron Curtis is a master with this small scraper.
He often says he might do better with a gouge but he would loose too much business in the time he would need to learn to use the gouge.

The small scrapers remove wood well and have much less stress on the body.
These tools are easy to make. Drill a hole in steel bar. Get a 3/16 or 1/4 square cutter bit 2.5" long cut them to an inch long with a dremmel cutoff wheel. Make it round on one end by rolling it on the grinder so a 1/4" goes into the hole.
Glue it in the hole with thick CA. 1/4" round bars of HSS are available too but cost a lot more.

The popular easy rougher tools use a little bit larger cutter but still much smaller than a wide scraper.

For bowls a curved rest is almost essential when scraping.
This results in shapes that match the curve of the rest

IMHO learning to use a gouge well is well worth the time and effort to do so unless you are already making a nice living using scrapers.

Al

 

[robo hippy]

If I had bent the tang on a scraper, I would be reluctant to bend it back. Tiny bend, probably okay, but more of a bend suggests weakness, so use caution.

The tool that Al is describing has been called an Oland tool, after the turner who, as near as I could tell, was the first to really put it to use. The size is similar to the carbide tipped tools that are so popular now days. For bowls, I guess it depends as much on how powerful/big your lathe is. I don't find use for scrapers over about 1 1/4 inch wide. That is a lot of metal to stick into a piece of spinning wood.

robo hippy

 

[Gary Aitken]

a caution about straightening...

Wow. I would guess the bend on the tang of this Benjamins Best 1" scraper was about 10 degrees at most. I laid it on a big (14"x16") flat anvil, and barely tapped it with a 2# hammer. It broke. So Reed is probably right, it would be unwise to merely straighten. It appeared to have no cracks prior to the hammer blow.

 

[John Torchick]

Far from an expert in tools and turning but would be reluctant, myself, to straighten a tool. The bend could flex back and become a break point instead of a bend point.

 

[KellyDunn]

I would suggest the fact it broke when trying to straighten it is a good thing. Better on the bench than in the hand. With Bs best you either get good steel or you dont. If its holding an edge its good. If you put it to the wood and the edge seems gone moments later its not. I do a lot of bowls from just cut log sections. Mounted first just between centers for outside roughing. which means I have in some cases very large amounts of corners to take down. A lower speed and a few light cuts then move the tool rest closer. Its bang bang bang for a bit.More round the higher the speed. No more than 900 RPM for me though. unless its a tiny thing. Lately I have been using a Dway 1/2 bowl gouge. Thats a 5/8th round bar with a 1/2 in. flute. Its a pretty drawn back grind. I sort of kept his grind to give it a good workout. I suggest your wife learns to use a bowl gouge. A scraper in my hands would beat the daylights out of me roughing out. The grind makes a difference. Some grinds are more friendly. some work better for bowl insides. A mentor, even an hour with a professional turner can make a huge difference. In 1985 the bit of time Richard Raffan and Nick Cook spent with me was like taking off a blindfold. There are some really good steels out there. They really do make a difference. Crap shoot on Bs best. Says its M2. But if it was not tempered right the trash can is the best place.

 

[Ron Rutter]

If I had bent the tang on a scraper, I would be reluctant to bend it back. Tiny bend, probably okay, but more of a bend suggests weakness, so use caution.

The tool that Al is describing has been called an Oland tool, after the turner who, as near as I could tell, was the first to really put it to use. The size is similar to the carbide tipped tools that are so popular now days. For bowls, I guess it depends as much on how powerful/big your lathe is. I don't find use for scrapers over about 1 1/4 inch wide. That is a lot of metal to stick into a piece of spinning wood.

robo hippy

Gary. An OLand tool an excellent tool for roughing out a bowl - and more. Get 12" of 5/8 cold rolled & drill a hole 2" deep with diameter to take a 1/4" square hss with the corners knocked off. Drill & tap 2 holes for setscrews. Don't cut the HSS shorter. Just loosen & pull out as it shortens from grinding. Glue up stock for a handle with rectangular hole & turn on your lathe. I make mine so the 5/8 KS slips out of the handle for sharpening. The 5/8 bar rotates nicely on the grinder platform.I also make my handles oversize ( 1 1/2" min ). Much easier on my about to be 81 years old paws! One swipe on my home made grinder & it is renewed! Ron.