Easy Rougher advice request

[Alan Carter]

I'm interested in the Ci1 Easy rougher and I was wondering if anyone has experience with it and what your opinion of it is. The Youtube video makes it look like the best thing since sliced walnut bread, but I also read a couple of less positive things about it, so I thought I'd go the the experts.

Is it really as easy and quick to round a way off center chunk as it looks?

Thanks.

 

[hockenbery]

I don't think any "expert" is using this tool.

There was a long thread on this tool. It is easy to use and does remove wood.
a bunch are being sold.

A bowl gouge in the right hands removes wood faster and leaves a smoother surface.

happy turning,
Al

 

[n7bsn]

Yes it is easy to use.

Is it faster... is a good gouge faster, depends on who is running it. For me they are about equal.

But, taking deep cuts with the big gouge always leaves a better finish. Although light cuts with the Easy does give an acceptable "80 grit" finish.

 

[robo hippy]

The Easy Rougher is a scraper that has carbide cutters instead of high speed steel. You can not sharpen the tips, and need to replace them. I would accept a challenge from ANY turner as to who can rough out a bowl faster with a gouge or a scraper (I prefer scrapers). Either tool in the hands of some one who knows how to use them works fine. As to a finish cut, I would think that it would do fine if presented at a shear angle, but the Easy Rougher is on a square shaft. I can get as clean of a surface with a scraper as I can with a gouge when using a shear cut, but not if I am scraping. Same applies to the gouge. You can scrape with it as well. The one advantage to using a scraper for roughing is that the shavings go up over the top of your hand instead of across the top of it (notice the shield on the Easy Rougher, you can stand to the side as well). Of course, if you hold the gouge underhanded, that isn't a problem.

robo hippy

 

[Steve Harder]

The EasyRougher square carbide cutter is a useable alternative to bowl gouges and Olands. But good final finish cuts are still a matter of lots of practice and skill.

If your goal is to remove all tool marks to prepare for sanding then research the Ci0 EasyFinisher.

I purchased the replacement round carbide insert ($20 shipped), mounted it on a 1/2" square steel handle (grind a little, drill and tap one hole) and mount that in my steel snake hollowing arm.

And that round insert just snuggles up to the inner and outer bowl surfaces, removing tiny threads - even in the transition area between side and bottom. I get much better control, with no worries about getting a catch when shear scraping with a bowl gouge. I end up with a surface that is really ready for sanding. It's really improved the quality of my work - it's a tool I wouldn't want to give up. And as I'm only using it for final touchup I'm expecting that carbide cutter to last quite a while.

 

[Vaughn]

I don't think any "expert" is using this tool...

I would respectfully disagree. I won't name names, but I can think of at least one turner who I consider to be expert (based on AAW recognition) who uses the tool. I agree a bowl gouge is a great tool, but it's not the only tool on some people's rack.

Alan, the Ci1 is easy to use, and effective. There is the continued cost of the replaceable carbide cutters, but that's an expense some feel is worthwhile. I use mine a lot, but for roughing I also use a bowl gouge and various Oland-style tools. If I'm beating the bark off a blank, I like the Oland tools, since I don't value the cutters and they're easy to sharpen or replace. If I want to remove a lot of wood with as little physical strain on my hands and wrists as possible, I use the Ci1. When I get down to refining the shape and getting a finished surface, I use a bowl gouge and sometimes scrapers. It all depends on the piece of wood and my mood.

 

[Doug Thompson]

I would respectfully disagree. I won't name names, but I can think of at least one turner who I consider to be expert (based on AAW recognition) who uses the tool.

Vaughn, you have to put a name on this person.

 

[Alan Carter]

Thanks for the advice. I wasn't expecting it to be good for finish cuts, just roughing, so what I've heard fits in with that. I'll try to find the thread hockenberry mentioned and see what it says. So far it sounds like a 50-50 split.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I'm interested in the Ci1 Easy rougher ....

Is it really as easy and quick to round a way off center chunk as it looks?

Thanks.

Way off center is tool abuse and operator danger. Use your bandsaw, your drawknife or whatever to get the big lumps out of the way. Kinder to your machine and you as well.

There are other tools besides scrapers that work well if you know how to use them. The advantage to a scraper is that anyone can use it with a strong arm and little thought. Other options work as rapidly, and don't throw crud or the piece into your face. I think that's a plus. They also don't require you hold on tight and work strong to shave away wood. Also a plus, because a tired arm doesn't rough as much in one day as one well cared for. Tendonitis can nullify any time you might have saved by bullying the wood.

 

[Vaughn]

...The advantage to a scraper is that anyone can use it with a strong arm and little thought...

I don't use a conventional scraper for roughing cuts, just very light cleanup. Strong arm's not needed for that. And I'll dismiss the "little thought" comment, considering the source.

...They also don't require you hold on tight and work strong to shave away wood...

I'm guessing you've not used the Ci1.

That is all. Carry on.

 

[Vaughn]

Vaughn, you have to put a name on this person.

Well, his friends call him Grumpy. He's a good friend on another forum, but I'll let him speak up for himself if he wants to.

 

[Vaughn]

...So far it sounds like a 50-50 split.

Alan, the vast majority of those who dismiss the Ci1 have not used one. Ask the people who've actually used one, and the satisfaction ratio will be much higher. I've seen a total of one report from someone who actually used one and wasn't happy with it.

Just be forewarned that if you get one, all of a sudden you will have no turning skills at all, and some turners here will look down on you because you somehow cannot and will never master the bowl gouge. Apparently it's impossible to be skilled with both, or at least that's what the "experts" seem to think.

 

[hockenbery]

Vaughn,

The "experts" move rapidly to any new tool that puts more money in their pocket.

Within a very short while all production bowl turners I know adopted coring because they got three bowls in about the same time it took to hollow the bigger one without coring it.

The experts rarely care how something is made but do care about form and finish. A bowl made with a chainsaw can be just as nice as one made on a lathe. It just takes a lot more skill to make one with a chainsaw.

Production turners I know pride themselves on quality and quantity.

If production bowl turners can make more bowls in a day with no loss of quality using an easy rougher for any portion of their process they will switch in a heartbeat.

happy turning,
AL

 

[Steve Worcester]

I will say this.
I talked at length with Craig Jackson (and his darling wife) at the symposium this last week. Real nice guy. Soft spoken and quite the gentleman. We talked openly about the tool and his feelings are it isn't really designed to replace a gouge, but to get more people into woodturning because the learning curve is much shorter (my paraphrasing). I tried out the finishing tool and traded one of my completed pieces for it so that I can give it a go.

I will admit that the machining and the finish of the tool are beautiful and I don't think you could make one in your shop with the same qualities. The way that the back of the support for the cutter holds the bit, but doesn't rub up against the cutting edge, the cleanliness of the machining, with the rounded edges of the bar. All above expectations. Don't know how well it works yet and while I am not looking to replace gouges with it, I am looking for alternatives to my sheer scrapers and to have "another club in the bag". I will probably go back and ask to borrow a "regular" version of the tool so that I can have some high school students try it out and see if they progress more quickly than with gouges since there isn't a bevel to rub or it isn't as critical in stance and what not, to use.

I am also not ready to dismiss reports from anyone who has used ANY tool and like it, it is their opinion and it worked for them. I agree, you really need to use a tool to form an educated opinion and all the conjecture in the world about design will not help, but a real world test for you will. While some of you may think this is a reversal of my opinion on this, it really isn't. I don't recall ever saying anything negative about the tool itself.

Admittedly, I didn't really buy it, but if you want to look at it another way, I traded a $250 piece of my work for the $100 (or whatever it costs) tool. When I use it, I will chime in on my personal opinion. But it is a finely designed tool.

 

[Jim Keenan]

Most of our turning in Hawaii is end grain. I find it to be invaluble to hog out the center of a bowl so I can get in there with a gouge. I drill a small hole to depth and then just take cuts straight in (in steps) until I get to about 1/2 to 3/4 inches and then switch to my gouges.

Worth all of 100 bucks.

 

[MichaelMouse]

I don't use a conventional scraper for roughing cuts, just very light cleanup. Strong arm's not needed for that. And I'll dismiss the "little thought" comment, considering the source.

I'm guessing you've not used the Ci1.

That is all. Carry on.

Oddly, I used carbide from my friend the machinist before there were Hunters or Ci tools marketed. Even took some time on Oland tools - the real ones from the old country. Had a production turner acquaintance who used little but.

I'm guessing you don't use gouges the same way I do. For instance, with a little thought you can do your cleanup while the work is in progress.

The fat guy here shows you how little effort is required to remove great quantities of of wood rapidly. He's even cleaning up, because the shavings go right into the bag. http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=DontDoThis.flv

Of course, if the purpose of the demo is to see how much wood can be removed in a short time, you might want to look at something like this. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=1012052.flv

Or this, which uses a tool with no flute http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/battle.htm

RoboHippy scrapes all his blanks and loves it. I find a gouge easier, but it does take a bit of time to learn.

 

[Vaughn]

Oddly, I used carbide from my friend the machinist before there were Hunters or Ci tools marketed.

I've used several different carbide cutters, but none worked the same as the Ci1 cutter. (Or the Hunter, for that matter, another great tool IMO.) There can be a LOT of difference from one cutter to another.

I'm guessing you don't use gouges the same way I do. For instance, with a little thought you can do your cleanup while the work is in progress.

The fat guy here shows you how little effort is required to remove great quantities of of wood rapidly. He's even cleaning up, because the shavings go right into the bag. http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=DontDoThis.flv

I'm guessing you underestimate my experience with bowl gouges. I use a similar cut quite often with mine (albeit two-handed). Except I don't let the tool bounce around like the guy did in the video. I also don't really consider that to be a great quantity of wood that he was removing, nor was it all that rapid.

Of course, if the purpose of the demo is to see how much wood can be removed in a short time, you might want to look at something like this. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=1012052.flv ...

I can do that pretty easily with a sharp 5/8" bowl gouge. I can do it more easily with a Ci1. (And send the curlies to the left or right of my hand...whichever is more convenient.) Either method, gouge or Ci1, leaves a surface that just needs a light shearing cut with a gouge for cleanup.

RoboHippy scrapes all his blanks and loves it. I find a gouge easier, but it does take a bit of time to learn.

Once again, you seem to be assuming that anyone who's not using a bowl gouge the way you do simply hasn't taken the time to learn. I respectfully believe you're wrong in that assumption. There may be some beginners who do indeed fall into that category, but I can guarantee you not all Ci1 users are gouge-challenged. I'm not trying to convince you that you have to use this tool, and don't think you should be trying to convince us we're wrong (or lesser turners) because we do use it. Especially when you haven't used it.

 

[David Wilkins]

I have used the tool, and it roughs out quickly. I don't like a tool I can't sharpen, and I sure don't see where the mystery around this particular carbide bit over those available locally needs to exist.

I don't like the idea of a beginner using this tool. I've said this before, it doesn't help them develop skill.

My advice as a turner, instructor and friend is to learn to properly use a spindle roughing gouge, bowl gouge, skew and spindle gouges. Then you have the option to judge honestly for yourself.

 

[robo hippy]

You can complete the job with a scraper. You can also do it with a gouge. You can use a combination of both tools. You can get the same end results with all of the tools. You do need to learn how to use all of the tools, and of course, the only way to learn is practice, with all of them to find out what works best for you. Practice doesn't mean using it a few times and deciding you don't like it. Practice means using it enough to get comfortable with the tool and then deciding if it works for you.

robo hippy

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

I was “gifted” one of Craig’s tools about a year ago, so I've been reluctant to jump into this discussion; not having to pay for a tool could certainly influence my opinion. The tool sat in a corner of my shop for at least six months and then one day I decided to give it a try. I had a sculptural project that required the hollowing of about 30 stave-constructed, steep, cone-shaped cylinders. If you do the math, a 16-stave cylinder, turning 1000rpm’s (I probably turned faster than that), presents 16,000 glue joints per minute to the cutting edge. This is incredibly abusive to any cutting edge. This is one reason that I like V-15 gouges; they simply hold an edge just a little longer. During my first session using the Easy Rougher, I was hooked. It cut cleanly (bloodwood and yellowheart) and I didn’t have to stop and re-sharpen. Whether you are a beginner or accomplished turner, I think this tool has a place in your tool arsenal.

For what it's worth.

 

[Ron Sardo]

During my first session using the Easy Rougher, I was hooked. It cut cleanly (bloodwood and yellowheart) and I didn’t have to stop and re-sharpen. Whether you are a beginner or accomplished turner, I think this tool has a place in your tool arsenal.

For what it's worth.

Thank you for you unbiased opinion Malcolm.

 

[Doug Thompson]

We talked openly about the tool and his feelings are it isn't really designed to replace a gouge, but to get more people into woodturning because the learning curve is much shorter.

Thank you Steve, this is another way to remove wood and not a bowl gouge vs a Ci1... it never was. Use what works for you, heck some even use a scraper, spindle gouge or even a SRG to remove wood efficiently and we never say a word. Your turning style and skills will dictate what tool works the best so again use what works for you.

I sure don't see where the mystery around this particular carbide bit over those available locally needs to exist.

There is no mystery behind carbide like is created on these forums, with only a couple of US manufactures they are easy to find. Ken Ferrell (bitshird) on the penturners forum says he buys the same carbide from the same company... I personally don't know this for a fact so someone who is interested could look into this more.

I've talked to Craig on the phone for hours on end when he had only had a prototype and a dream, he has worked very hard to build a business out of nothing. He is young with a very nice family that supports his dream, even his son has been at a symposium. The workmanship on his products is flawless from the steel with a light brushed finish to the handles are perfect.

 

[Ted Evans]

An experience and a perspective from a rank amateur at turning. Started my first bowl using a set of old Buck turning tools on a small piece, about six inches, of Apple wood using 1â€, 5/8†and 1/2" gouges, the 1/2†one I ground with a fingernail shape.

The outside went great, and making my best effort to use the techniques of Bill Grumbine, I was thrilled with the smooth finish; a friend thought it had been sanded. Then I started on the inside using the 1/2" gouge, and the fun stopped, I broke out in a cold sweat and hives. It was not very bad except for the initial insertion of the gouge starting the cut. However, after many hours and more sweat, it was just about where I wanted it, and then, what is the phrase used, “a catch†and it cracked the wall. Bad words immediately came to mind.

I had watched the video’s of Craig with his tools and thought perhaps I could use them, however, being “tight†as my friends say, I removed one of my carbide inserts from my Byrd cutter head on the planer, milled a slot on one end of a piece of ½†x ½†cold rolled, drilled and tapped for the cutter, turned a 3/8†tenon on the other end and made a handle. It worked wonderfully and no stopping for sharpening. Then I purchased a couple of the round cutters from Craig and did the same with one of them.

Anxious to try another bowl, I grabbed a piece of white oak from the firewood pile and started again using my homemade tools. The outside went great and a little faster than with the gouges, due to my lack of experience with them. Then the inside, wow, this is fun stuff. No catches, no bending way over the bed, no cold sweat starting the cut, go in or out and a nice smooth finish. I loved it.

Bottom line, I think these tools are superb for people like myself that don’t have the expertise to use the more conventional cutters but would like to actually turn a project. Do I plan on them being my primary tools, no, are they as versatile as the gouges, not in my opinion, do they have a place in the tool chest, I think so.

Do I desire to use the tools like the grownups use, you bet, I ordered four gouges from Doug so being tight like I am, I had better be serious about it. BTW, I owe some gratitude, or perhaps blame, to John Lucas for spending time with a newbie and sharing his thoughts and wealth of experience on tools, Doug’s specifically, and to Doug for his same generosity and suggestions. Both of these guys are extremely friendly and willing to use their valuable time helping those of us that are less talented and have nothing to offer in return.

Sorry for being so long winded with this.

Bear

 

[Alan Carter]

Wow. It's been very informative (and not a little entertaining) to read the responses to my question. Based on what I've read, it sounds like this is a good worthwhile tool. I realize it's not a magic bullet and no substitute for learning good solid turning techniques. I also recognize some of the other concerns expressed.

I'll probably get one when the budget permits, based on some of the endorsements expressed in this thread.

Thanks again to all.

 

[John Van Domelen]

I have one and like it well enough. It is almost as fast as my largest bowl gouge on green wood. On dry wood I still like my bowl gouges. I'll keep it, but it is not likely to replace anything else in my tool arsenal either. Just another way to bulk remove wood.