While mineral oil doesn't cure it doesn't just sit on the surface. It absolutely does get absorbed into the wood beneath the surface.
Unless I misunderstood your meaning.
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Finishing salad bowls
- Thread starter Doug Dubowski
- Start date
Unless I misunderstood your meaning.
A chemist point out this book to me: "The Dose Makes the Poison: A Plain-Language Guide to Toxicology. I bought a copy.
Much of what concerns us is much ado about nothing. Unless you live in California, of course.
JKJ
Much of what concerns us is much ado about nothing. Unless you live in California, of course.
JKJ
OK, I made a mistake! Need some help sorting this out. Crotch, walnut, which has Rubio's 2c on (after sanding to 400). This bowl was intended to be an art piece that would function as a salad bowl. Now I'm learning from my mistakes. I was supposed to stop sanding at 150 for Rubio's (however, walnut is famous for showing scratches), so I sanded to 400. I did blow the bowl off with high-pressure air. Then coated with Rubio's. Now I am wondering if this bowl can ever be used as a salad bowl, as I'm learning Rubio's is probably not a great finish for that intended use. Also, it is highly figured, and that figure just does not pop. Thoughts on how to move forward, anyone!? I would like the figure to pop more, even if it is just initially. Can this bowl be utilitarian? My thoughts are to polish with the Bealle system and hard wax. I will recommend to the purchaser that they get Rubio's magic maintenance medicine if it is to be used. Picture attached. 24 hours into curing right now. The foot has not been turned off, as I want to hear some responses. I will leave a foot on it to lift it off the table if it is to be sold strictly as art. If you think it could be used, I will turn the foot away. Thanks for your input, in advance
Attachments
I am not sure why you stopped sanding at 150 since that would leave obvious scratches. I would suggest wet sanding with more Rubio's, which I am guessing is Rubio Monocote. Good stuff as far as I am concerned, especially for pieces that are going to get handled a lot. I would go to 400 which is what I do for my wood bowls, then finish with the grey synthetic steel wool pads.
robo hippy
robo hippy
No matter how much the bowl pops, you will most likely be the only one to appreciate the grain. All others notice the lovely green contents with contrasting colors of the add ins.
My maple salad bowl has been in use for about 25 years. Used often olive oil vinegarette. It’s washed with dish soap and immediately dried.
It started life with a rubbing of olive oil and has a reapplication at least 2-3 times a week when a salad is made. There is a lovely dull orangish brown patina that maple gets over time.
Since it’s in frequent use, sometimes daily, the finish is food safe, low cost, and I never worry about losing that pristine shine you see when it comes off the lathe.
Here’s my formula for frequent finish reapplication.
1 cup olive oil
1/3 cup balsamic vinegar
2 tsp Dijon mustard
1 clove garlic
1 tsp salt
Pinch tarragon
My maple salad bowl has been in use for about 25 years. Used often olive oil vinegarette. It’s washed with dish soap and immediately dried.
It started life with a rubbing of olive oil and has a reapplication at least 2-3 times a week when a salad is made. There is a lovely dull orangish brown patina that maple gets over time.
Since it’s in frequent use, sometimes daily, the finish is food safe, low cost, and I never worry about losing that pristine shine you see when it comes off the lathe.
Here’s my formula for frequent finish reapplication.
1 cup olive oil
1/3 cup balsamic vinegar
2 tsp Dijon mustard
1 clove garlic
1 tsp salt
Pinch tarragon
I don't think sanding to 400 is a problem at all. I use other finishing products, but regularly sand to p800.
I only mentioned this because Rubin’s wants you to stop at 150. Something about getting better penetration.
The post reads that I stopped at 400 grit. Which is a lot more than the Rubios instructions want you to sand. The question remains. Can this piece be used as a utilitarian piece? I know that I screwed up on my finish choice. There are so many other salad bowl finishes that might’ve been better.
My wife has a very sensitive nose and feels that olive oil can go rancid. What I find interesting about your recipe is that it has vinegar in it. Perhaps that could change the possibility of the olive oil getting rancid?
Olive oil can and does go rancid. All cooking oils can. A vinegarette includes an acid such as lemon juice or vinegar. Dijon mustard is an emulsifier that keeps the oil and water components from separating. Vinegar does not prevent olive oil from becoming rancid. Oxidation of the oil causes the oil to become rancid due to exposure to heat, light, and air.
Proper maintenance as in washing the bowl and drying is why I’ve never experienced an off flavor from the bowl. I suspect if it were just wiped clean, it might impart an off flavor. Regardless of what oil was first used, my salad making bowl is exposed to olive oil over 100 times a year and isn’t rancid. I think Dawn may be the secret sauce. YMMV.
Also tightly grained woods are important for salad bowls.
Proper maintenance as in washing the bowl and drying is why I’ve never experienced an off flavor from the bowl. I suspect if it were just wiped clean, it might impart an off flavor. Regardless of what oil was first used, my salad making bowl is exposed to olive oil over 100 times a year and isn’t rancid. I think Dawn may be the secret sauce. YMMV.
Also tightly grained woods are important for salad bowls.
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I’ve posted this before but maybe worth posting it again? Just one professional turners view.
Wooden bowls, plates, spoons - handcrafted woodware - Robin Wood
Robin Wood is a master woodturner handcrafting beautiful wooden bowls and plates and carving wooden spoons. Shop for woodware and wood-craft courses.
www.robin-wood.co.uk
what is the best oil for treating wood? - Robin Wood
I get asked a lot of questions about woodturning and what is the best oil for treating wood is one of the most common so I have written an article in answer
www.robin-wood.co.uk
I don't know if the Rubio Monocote is "food safe" or not. All finishes are "supposed" to be food safe "when fully cured", and the Rubio takes a while to fully cure. I like it because there are no VOCs in it, but I prefer walnut oil for my bowls. I would think you could put that on top of the Rubio. I had never heard of stopping sanding at 150 for Rubio. I sanded far higher than that. I know the old "paint grade" stuff you did stop at 150 or so because paint was mostly pigment, and not binder, but now days most of the modern paints have base coat and pigment combined. Not really sure how that all works....
robo hippy
robo hippy
FWIW, Linseed is Flax seed. As its use as a food safe finish has increased, so, too, have allergic reactions and allergies to it, sadly. I wouldn't state that linseed is less alergenic than tung or walnut. A lot of the time exposure can trigger a latent allergy. So linseed, long term, is likely to be about as allergenic as the other two.
FWIW, I used Drs Woodshop pure walnut oil. I did some research a couple of years ago, and allergies are primarily caused by proteins in the oils, not the raw oil itself, except in very rare cases. I used Mahoney's walnut oil for a while, but I think it still has proteins in it (hence the browner color), whereas Drs Woodshop pure walnut oil is filtered so that there are no proteins left. I also discovered that such pure walnut oil will actually never go rancid, and will never really go bad in the bottle, and it does indeed seem to hold up really well in the bottle over time. I think this could be an option. I would still add a warning that the finish was pure walnut oil, just in case, but it could be an option.
I've seen a couple of glancing mentions of Tung oil here. Of all the possible PURE oils, as far as I know Tung is the only one that can ultimately provide a true water resistant finish. It has long been used as a classic waterproof sealant for things like traditional Japanese paper umbrellas, which are literally made of paper then the top coated with Tung until it provides a thick rain-repelling polymerized surface.
I think it was on another forum, but a guy who turned me onto the waterproofing abilities of Tung oil has been finishing his real utility items like salad bowls with Tung for a couple of decades or so, and has never had any issues with it.
I think it was on another forum, but a guy who turned me onto the waterproofing abilities of Tung oil has been finishing his real utility items like salad bowls with Tung for a couple of decades or so, and has never had any issues with it.
So, this gets into solvents, and how much remain behind when the finish is fully cured.
I've tried getting a solid read on this in the past, but there are a lot of opinions. I also have the Understanding Wood Finishing book, which covers it a bit.
It seems like it used to be the more common opinion in the past that once a finish with solvents dried, the solvents had flashed off and you were left with the oil. General Finishes Salad Bowl Finish was sold as a food safe finish for a very long time, as far as I could tell, before it was renamed General Finishes Wood Bowl finish and lost the "food safe" label, which I don't think was really because anything changes outside of popular opinion?
I am sure that some small percentage of the solvents remain in the finish in the long term. I think the question is, and one that I don't know if anyone has actually studied in detail or with a proper scientific study, just how much, and is the remnant amount something to be concerned about? Further, if there is any remnant, is it bound up in the polymerized oils once the finish cures, and if so, how much does that further reduce the amount that might contaminate food through use?
I think this debate came up on a pen turning forum in the past and there were some strong voices that seemed rather exasperated by the modern popular opinion that tons of solvent remained in the finish and they were fundamentally unsafe unless they were just pure oil, when for decades a lot of older turners had been finishing bowls with finished that contained solvents and had never had anyone fall ill as a result of using their bowls (or whatever items.)
Does anyone know if this has been more closely and specifically studied these days? I'd be really curious to know how much of the solvents flash off during drying, vs. how much really remain for the long term, and how much are totally bound up in the wood and polymerized finish vs. reside near the surface where they might contaminate food during use. My suspicion is that not much remains in the long term, and that because some of the solvents will get bound up in the polymers once the finish cures, there would be even less that could be in close contact with food... I don't know at exactly what levels these kinds of solvents would be toxic, though, and of course no concrete idea of just how much solvent flashes off vs. remains behind...
Well, I know so little about finishing solvents in general that I won't speculate on them, but I've been trying to limit my exposure to them. Mineral spirits isn't a real issue for me, but within 5 minutes of using Minwax Wiping Poly and similar products from the can, I experience a physical reaction, even with good ventilation. It's weird to describe, but my lips get a bit tingly and they feel sticky like I've been eating cotton candy. It takes a good 30 minutes being outside that environmemt for the feeling to go away. (Now when I drink it over ice, I don't have that issue. Just kidding.) This is why I've just been using T&T finishes for several years now, rather than investing in respirator equipment. Xylene and toluene, I want nothing to do with being in the same room with those- headache! Maybe the issue with solvents in finishes aren't the petrochemical aromatics that do evaporate out, but rather some of the other solid chemicals that trigger the finish to cure unnaturally fast, like cobalt, or "Japan drier", which I've seen forever but have no idea what it is. Either way, I'm trying to stay away. (How about the good ol' days of white lead as a curing agent?)
I've gone through lots of pure tung oil. I was a pen turner early on and pure tung was my go-to. Then I started mixing it 1:1:1 with poly and mineral spirits, then I moved to Waterlox. (Had more Waterlox go hard in the can before finishing it than I can imagine.) Now, just T&T. This little jug of pure tung oil must be 15 years old, but it is still liquid, no gelling or solidifying. I haven't opened it for probably 10 years. For some reason the bottle is about 30% collapsed inward, like I squeezed it before sealing it, which I did not. I'm pretty sure I didn't... I think I'll keep it next to those cans of T&T on my bench in the background. May as well use it, it's nice stuff.
I've gone through lots of pure tung oil. I was a pen turner early on and pure tung was my go-to. Then I started mixing it 1:1:1 with poly and mineral spirits, then I moved to Waterlox. (Had more Waterlox go hard in the can before finishing it than I can imagine.) Now, just T&T. This little jug of pure tung oil must be 15 years old, but it is still liquid, no gelling or solidifying. I haven't opened it for probably 10 years. For some reason the bottle is about 30% collapsed inward, like I squeezed it before sealing it, which I did not. I'm pretty sure I didn't... I think I'll keep it next to those cans of T&T on my bench in the background. May as well use it, it's nice stuff.
Yes, Flax seed is indeed another name for Linseed. They sell Flax seed in the supermarket for cooking and salads.
Healthy Flaxseed Dressing - so easy and delicious!
Combine fresh lemon and basil with ground golden flax to create a thick and hearty Healthy Flaxseed Dressing without added fat and calories.
thisbakinglife.com
I believe Robin Wood used to apply Walnut Oil to his bowls but stopped using it in case it caused issues for those with Nut Allergies? Unlikely in its cured form but not worth the risk as Linseed/Flax is available.
So, your reactions to the volatiles flashing off is not surprising. That's because the vast, vast majority of them should be evaporating from the finish as it dries, and yes, they are noxious or even toxic, especially in levels like that (i.e. if you are close to the surface as you are putting your finish on).
The thing that I was wondering is, once the volatiles have flashed off, and the finish fully cures...what are the remnant levels, if any, and are those remnant levels actually able to be released by the cured finish, and in what levels? Because of dangerous forever chemicals like PFOA/PFOS (from other chemical manufacture, notably Teflon), which are bioaccumulative and quite toxic in the long run, and definitely cause issues in like cancer and other death-causing health problems, I think there has been a strong shift in overall popular sentiment against ANY kind of chemical at all. I do wonder, though, if that is truly warranted with evaporative volatiles in wood finishes...
Regarding your tung oil bottle. I've had that happen with danish oil cans. Even though it is still a liquid, some of the oil has polymerized, by reacting withi the limited amount of oxygen that was in the can (or container in your case), and that reaction reduced the overall volume of air in there. Hence the collapse. I guess it is not enough, to completely polymerize the remaining oil. Further, I suspect that the oil around the threads on the cap and bottle, probably create a good seal that prevents much additional oxygen from seeping in over the years, hence why the oil still did not completely harden over the 10 year interval since you last opened it. I had a can of danish that had a tiny bit of oil left in the bottom, and it solidified, I think just from the air that was in there the last time I sealed it. I have another can that still has, oh, 1/5th of the oil left maybe, and it is almost as old and it is still a liquid. I'm sure its partially polymerized, but its probably still just as good as a finish.
Hmm... I've had that happen even when there is no oxygen in the container (I displace the oxygen with inert gas). There is no polymerizing in the can. I'll ask my friend the chemist (also a woodturner) if he has a theory.
Bad advice. Light mineral oil is used on wood since it penetrates. Heavy mineral oil poorly penetrates and is used as a laxative. Light mineral oil can cause an aspiration pneumonia.You should try eating mineral oil straight out of the bottle, Reed. Since it's a laxative, you'd be the one in the can.
Yea, some of the same people who worry about a polyurethane finish will use plastic cutting boards, microwave frozen stuff in plastic trays, etc.
I used mineral oil on a handful of bowls when I first started turning. Years later they look as if no finish was applied at all.
Lately I've been using tung oil from The Skin Boat Store. It is supposedly polymerized and food safe but it doesn't seem to dry any faster than the Hope's Pure Tung Oil I have used before. It is also very viscous. Been thinning it about 50-50 with citrus solvent.
Walnut oil is my go to standard. From what I read somewhere, Mahoney's process does remove the allergen proteins. I have also used Doctors Woodshop oil as well. I like Doctors friction polish on some items, which is shellac and walnut oil.
Lately I've been using tung oil from The Skin Boat Store. It is supposedly polymerized and food safe but it doesn't seem to dry any faster than the Hope's Pure Tung Oil I have used before. It is also very viscous. Been thinning it about 50-50 with citrus solvent.
Walnut oil is my go to standard. From what I read somewhere, Mahoney's process does remove the allergen proteins. I have also used Doctors Woodshop oil as well. I like Doctors friction polish on some items, which is shellac and walnut oil.
The allergens in peanuts are not in peanut oil. I don’t know about walnut oil but I suspect the same.
That is rather odd... How much did it collapse? If just a little, maybe there was still oxygen in there?
Also wonder if whatever gas you replaced oxygen with, was maybe lower volume at the same temps?
Curious what your chemist says.
I would think the increased viscosity of the polymerized tung was because it was polymerized. Interesting it did not cure any faster...
Thanks for the link. This was kind of what I was looking for. I have long suspected a lot of modern concerns over VOCs in wood finishes was probably unwarranted.
Ah, California. Because of Cali, we all live in Cali. Their laws have a tendency to affect us all {and, spawn copycats...colorado is getting just as bad!)
Next thing you know is your beer will come with a proposition 65 label on it since ETOH is on the hazardous list.
The Peanut protein that causes the problem remains in cold pressed or un-refined oil. Once again you need to read the label.
I bought a quart of tung oil from Skinboat store and had the same result, takes forever to cure. I looked on their website last week and they have suspended operations for the present.