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Hollow Form Shape

David Wyke

David Wyke

Joined
Nov 22, 2023
Messages
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Location
Morganton, NC
Okay, trying to get my shapes better for vase type HF’s. This one measures 10-3/4 x 10.
I tried to get a flowing curve but it may still be too fat.
I will remove about a 1/2” off the bottom as I left it a little longer in case I need to put it back on the lathe.
Tell me honestly what you think and/or what I need to work on.
I’ve already been told it looks like a hot air balloon 😂

1739129764284.jpeg

1739129728253.jpeg
 
I really like it David, A hot air balloon is a good model. It has natural flowing curves. It, and yours, have the largest diameter a little above center, that gives the piece some lightness and shows less function and lift off the table. Some folks that don't like the hot air balloon shape would prefer more functional looking pieces. No right or wrong just different preferences. Turn your piece upside down and see what I mean.

Using the golden rectangle proportions as a goal when possible, your dimensions of 11x10 does not match. Course rules are made to be broken. When you finish the bottom the dimensions become almost spherical. A sphere is very difficult to nail perfectly so the goal there is to make it intentionally not a sphere. Coming too close to spherical can be distracting.

You want to continue a slight curve all the way to the foot. The last inch near the table looks like (hard to see in the photo) it might have a flat spot. Use a ruler with a bright light behind to check for the desired slight curve. The eye expects the curve to continue. Glad to see you are trying to refine your design decisions. This is a great example that the devil is in the details. There is always room for refinement.
 
Just a few personal preferences, David.
1 - the largest diameter should be higher up on the form ... not on or near the center. [Golden Mean/Ratio]
2 - I would avoid the slight reverse curve (or straight line) leading into the foot/base. Also looks a little too narrow for the size of the piece.
3 - the lip looks a little ambiguous. Should be more refined (or eliminated?) and maybe not have a flat spot.
Again, just my preferences ... and worth what you paid for them. ;)
You are very prolific and do an excellent job on all other aspects of turning ... love your bowls and the beautiful woods you use. Well done!
 
I like the general shape and the vertical lines of the ambrosia. I agree with you to take the 1/2" off the bottom to see where you're at. It might need the bottom tucked in about 1/16" or so to get the curve Lyle is talking about.
 
Tom hit all the points that came to my mind. One I'll add deals with the rim/collar. I like to add something at the body/collar transition to better differentiate them. Can be a slight undercut (v groove), a simple small line like you might make with a teardrop tool, or anything that makes a "hard" break between the curve of the body and the collar/rim. That little shadow line can add a lot to a piece.

Design can be very subjective and everyone likes something different. Because you are asking, I sense something feels a little off to you. Rather than rushing out and implementing all the ideas presented here, grab a pencil and paper and do a little sketching. Doesn't have to be pretty, but a little playing with drawing, no matter how crude helps the mind/eye see potential changes.
 
For me the 'rules' are if any. All curves should be linear irrespective of height width length or whatever, hold to the rule of thirds, that is the major dia will be somewhere near one third from the top of bottom. OK the foot if any and the rim are important but the esthetics of these are up to the individual turner, its a judgement call and all decisions here are highly subjective.
Exceptions, are there any? Probably, if your following Asian ceramics you will find some of the forms don't seem to really follow the rule of thirds and also some of these forms dont translate into wood well. But thats a whole another kettle of fish that I am still getting head around.
 
Thank you everyone for the insights. I had the bottom larger and probably should have left it like that. There was just something about this shape that didn’t look right to me. I am very critical of my work and want it to be perfect. I’ve gotten close on a couple of HF’s but can’t seem to be satisfied with the larger hollow forms.
I’ll keep trying and use the advice that was presented here.
I think on the next one I’ll mark it in thirds and see if that helps.
 
I'm more into utilitarian which doesn't mean an object can't be pleasing in design. What are you trying to accomplish with this design?

If that piece was displayed on a shelf or fireplace mantel every time I looked at it I'd be troubled by the apparent instability because of the tiny base.
 
Doug Rasmussen said:
I'm more into utilitarian which doesn't mean an object can't be pleasing in design. What are you trying to accomplish with this design?

If that piece was displayed on a shelf or fireplace mantel every time I looked at it I'd be troubled by the apparent instability because of the tiny base.
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I’m more into utilitarian pieces also but love to turn hollow forms. I’m basically trying to improve on my shapes and got a little carried away with this one. The base was much bigger but I kept the curve going too much.
The more I look at this one the more I hate it and very disappointed in myself for not stopping. So there is a good chance this one will end up in pieces and I’ll try again.
 
More often than not, I end up with a base of approximately the same size as the opening at the top. Also, it looks a little tilted as it sits on the flat surface. If true, you can fix that when you put it back on the lathe,
 
Lyle Jamieson said:
I really like it David, A hot air balloon is a good model. It has natural flowing curves. It, and yours, have the largest diameter a little above center, that gives the piece some lightness and shows less function and lift off the table. Some folks that don't like the hot air balloon shape would prefer more functional looking pieces. No right or wrong just different preferences. Turn your piece upside down and see what I mean.

Using the golden rectangle proportions as a goal when possible, your dimensions of 11x10 does not match. Course rules are made to be broken. When you finish the bottom the dimensions become almost spherical. A sphere is very difficult to nail perfectly so the goal there is to make it intentionally not a sphere. Coming too close to spherical can be distracting.

You want to continue a slight curve all the way to the foot. The last inch near the table looks like (hard to see in the photo) it might have a flat spot. Use a ruler with a bright light behind to check for the desired slight curve. The eye expects the curve to continue. Glad to see you are trying to refine your design decisions. This is a great example that the devil is in the details. There is always room for refinement.
Click to expand...
Read and totally agreed with above and then noticed it was from Lyle himself !!!
 
My two cents:

IMG_0952.jpeg

A) Smooth out the curve that leads into the rim Alternatively, create a crease at the base of the rim to make it more distinct. Right now, it lives kind of in between and feels out of sync with the overall silhouette

B) The widest part of the vessel is too low relative to the optimal height. I’d raise that up a bit to give it a broader shoulder.

C) The bottom section of the curve flattens out too much leading into the base. This is what is giving it that hot air ballon vibe. I’d continue the trajectory of the curve through to the base.

D) The curve adjustment mentioned in C has the convenient byproduct of shortening the vessel and addressing the prior feedback that the vessel feels too high off the table and looks unsteady.

It’s a solid effort overall, David! IME, you have to make a lot of bad shapes before you start making good shapes. Eventually, you’ll start to see these things while the piece is still on the lathe and you’ll be able to make adjustments on the fly to get the form dialed in.
 
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Not sure there is a right or wrong to the shape of this. For my tastes, I agree with Vincent in that I would take a little off the bottom.
What I don't agree with is where some have said that the base is too small. For my tastes, I would use the opportunity given when shortening up the base, to make it even narrower. A turning made for looks and not for a piece that is used or routinely handled really doesn't have the need for an overly stable base. I am enclosing a picture of a piece with it's base a touch under 3/8" and it's width of about 7-8" and it hasn't tipped over ever since it was made about 6-8 yrs ago. The base actually looks much bigger than it really is due to the dark cabinet. If needed I can supply a better picture.
The only thing that really stands out to me is the top rim, as personally I would like to see a little more thought on the shape and the sharpness of detail. Beautiful piece either way and props to you for putting yourself out there.
Edit, I just measured the pic I submitted, base 7/16", with 7 3/8"
51347.jpg
 
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Jaramiah Severns said:
My two cents:

View attachment 72165

A) Smooth out the curve that leads into the rim Alternatively, create a crease at the base of the rim to make it more distinct. Right now, it lives kind of in between and feels out of sync with the overall silhouette

B) The widest part of the vessel is too low relative to the optimal height. I’d raise that up a bit to give it a broader shoulder.

C) The bottom section of the curve flattens out too much leading into the base. This is what is giving it that hot air ballon vibe. I’d continue the trajectory of the curve through to the base.

D) The curve adjustment mentioned in C has the convenient byproduct of shortening the vessel and addressing the prior feedback that the vessel feels too high off the table and looks unsteady.

It’s a solid effort overall, David! IME, you have to make a lot of bad shapes before you start making good shapes. Eventually, you’ll start to see these things while the piece is still on the lathe and you’ll be able to make adjustments on the fly to get the form dialed in.
Click to expand...
I like that!!
 
Ed Sandle said:
Not sure there is a right or wrong to the shape of this. For my tastes, I agree with Vincent in that I would take a little off the bottom.
What I don't agree with is that the base is too small. For my tastes, I would use the opportunity given when shortening up the base, to make it even narrower. A turning made for looks and not for a piece that is used or routinely handled really doesn't have the need for an overly stable base. I am enclosing a picture of a piece with it's base a touch under 3/8" and it's width of about 7-8" and it hasn't tipped over ever since it was made about 6-8 yrs ago. The base actually looks much bigger than it really is due to the dark cabinet. If needed I can supply a better picture.
The only thing that really stands out to me is the top rim, as personally I would like to see a little more thought on the shape and the sharpness of detail. Beautiful piece either way and props to you for putting yourself out there.
Edit, I just measured the pic I submitted, base 7/16", with 7 3/8"
View attachment 72172
Click to expand...
It is very stable and I do plan on taking 1/2-3/4” off the bottom. I should have stopped when the baes was much larger but I guess I got carried away!
 
Ed Sandle said:
Not sure there is a right or wrong to the shape of this. For my tastes, I agree with Vincent in that I would take a little off the bottom.
What I don't agree with is where some have said that the base is too small. For my tastes, I would use the opportunity given when shortening up the base, to make it even narrower. A turning made for looks and not for a piece that is used or routinely handled really doesn't have the need for an overly stable base. I am enclosing a picture of a piece with it's base a touch under 3/8" and it's width of about 7-8" and it hasn't tipped over ever since it was made about 6-8 yrs ago. The base actually looks much bigger than it really is due to the dark cabinet. If needed I can supply a better picture.
The only thing that really stands out to me is the top rim, as personally I would like to see a little more thought on the shape and the sharpness of detail. Beautiful piece either way and props to you for putting yourself out there.
Edit, I just measured the pic I submitted, base 7/16", with 7 3/8"
View attachment 72172
Click to expand...
Well at the end of the day 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' so what is it? Its a well balanced simple bowl of unusual form, but well done.
 
My contribution, which I made over in What's on your lathe...

Neil S

Post in thread 'What’s on your lathe?'

David Wyke said:
I’m not liking the shape of this one but too late to change it😁. I’ll try another one and see if I can improve the shape.
It looks like a balloon ready to pop! Took the bottom to small so it probably won’t show up in the photo gallery!
Thinking seriously about not finishing it, putting it on the wall in front of the lathe with a sign, “Don’t Do This”😁

View attachment 72152
Click to expand...

David

I see this form quite differently to you. As both a potter and woodturner, what I see is a form that is deep rooted in western culture. One of my very favourite places is the National Archaeological Museum in...
  • Like

I'm with Lyle on this piece getting close to being a great piece!

As for 1/3rds, I expect some ratios like that are buried deep away in my brain from many years of drawing from nature and studying the forms that have been widely adopted over the deep history of pottery, but I never bring them consciously to mind and expect I would often depart from them anyway, even if I did.
 
Neil S said:
My contribution, which I made over in What's on your lathe...

Neil S

Post in thread 'What’s on your lathe?'

David Wyke said:
I’m not liking the shape of this one but too late to change it😁. I’ll try another one and see if I can improve the shape.
It looks like a balloon ready to pop! Took the bottom to small so it probably won’t show up in the photo gallery!
Thinking seriously about not finishing it, putting it on the wall in front of the lathe with a sign, “Don’t Do This”😁

View attachment 72152
Click to expand...

David

I see this form quite differently to you. As both a potter and woodturner, what I see is a form that is deep rooted in western culture. One of my very favourite places is the National Archaeological Museum in...
  • Like

I'm with Lyle on this piece getting close to being a great piece!

As for 1/3rds, I expect some ratios like that are buried deep away in my brain from many years of drawing from nature and studying the forms that have been widely adopted over the deep history of pottery, but I never bring them consciously to mind and expect I would often depart from them anyway, even if I did.
Click to expand...
I like the idea, replied on the other thread.
 
David Wyke said:
So is this basically what I need to go by? One was called the golden ratio for hollow forms.

I’m now going to he shop to second turn a bowl and will throw a blanket over the hollow form so I’m not distracted😂

View attachment 72164

View attachment 72163
Click to expand...
I agree with jaramiah on points a and b. He seems to favor those shorter squatter forms. I would go with the taller form here. I know you’ve heard this tip before but get a glue stick to help with your continuous curve. With your skill level you are right there! Keep up the good work.
 
Ted Pelfrey said:
I agree with jaramiah on points an and b. He seems to favor those shorter squatter forms. I would go with the taller form here. I know you’ve heard this tip before but get a glue stick to help with your continuous curve. With your skill level you are right there! Keep up the good work.
Click to expand...
I do like a taller form with vase like proportions. The short forms are fairly easy to get the shape.
 
David Wyke said:
... Can’t give up or Michael Anderson may put me on forum probation😂!
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I'm in trouble then. :rolleyes:

Whenever I hear about the "rules" I tend to do something completely different just because.
Sometimes I get grief from the woodturning police. Once I posted this photo of a couple of lidded boxes on another forum. A turning policeman said I didn't follow the rules for where the break between the body and lid should be. My thought was "that's what YOU think."

Cocobolo and ebony.
cocobolo_boxes.jpg
I was offered $100s for one at a symposium - I prefer to give them away.
I try to make them egg-shaped inside.

Maybe he would have been happier with this one. The lid line higher, actually a little in the brown below where the lighting happened to make a darker ring.
African Blackwood
Blackwood_Box_IMG_8157.jpg

Unless we try different designs how will we know what we personally like? Life sure would be boring if we all did the same thing.

Alan Weinberg said:
Put some oil on and let’s see it in all its glory.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of something - for several reasons I often wipe on naphtha on the surface when smoothing surfaces.
- If brings out the figure and color nicely for evaluation (and to feel good!) without applying oil.
- It dries quickly and leaves no residue, raises no grain.
- Just before it dries and disappears, the liquid highlights even small scratches for just a moment - hard to fix what I can't see or feel.

Mediterranean Olive, made several of these so far from one big 6/4 slab.
olive_test.jpg

JKJ
 
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