I know this will be controversial.....but, here goes....

[Odie]

I feel very lucky to have learned basic woodturning skills back in the early 1980's. Back then, there was no such thing as a swept back grind.....or, the Ellsworth grind, among other swept back grind shapes attributed to other turners. Back then, all new turners were taught the "traditional" gouge grind. The traditional gouge grind has probably been around for 100 years, and it's something you rarely see these days.....simply because the momentum of the woodturning herd has all but made it extinct.

In my opinion, the traditional grind (if shaped well) is more versatile and can produce a finer cut in difficult places, than any of the swept back grinds.

For those who are unaware of the traditional gouge grind, it's produced using the "V-arm" of the Wolverine jig. The Wolverine makes it easy, but I suppose other turners have made their own simple jigs to produce this grind. It's not complicated, and because of that, it's also very easy to learn.

I suspect there will be a great pushback from the herd here, but this is because the traditional grind is seldom seen anymore.....virtually nobody is teaching it.....and very few turners are using it. Awareness of the traditional grind these days is practically non-existent, except for a few turners who have been turning for close to 40, or more years.

Just to be clear here, I first began using the swept back grind about 35 years ago, during a time when most turners were first learning this new approach to gouge grind shapes. I eventually was using the swept back grind exclusively. Back then, I transitioned from the traditional grind to the swept back grind......prior to transitioning back to the traditional grind about 20 years ago. When I transitioned back to the traditional grind, it was after I had been turning for a couple decades.....so, at that time, I had some experience under my belt to evaluate the usefulness of the various grinds that were available and being taught.

Right now, I don't think I have a single gouge that still has a swept back shape.....and, that Vari-grind jig for the Wolverine is gathering dust!

=o=

 

[Lennart Delin]

Well, I guess it depends not only when but also where you started. I started turning in the early sixties in Sweden. All gouges were what the British call continental gouges i.e. forged from a flat steel and had a moderate swept back grind. There was no division in bowl gouges and spindle gouges. Looks very much like the spindle gouges I use today. For bowl gouges I today use the now common, milled from round HSS with a swept back grind.

 

[Brian Gustin]

I feel very lucky to have learned basic woodturning skills back in the early 1980's. Back then, there was no such thing as a swept back grind.....or, the Ellsworth grind, among other swept back grind shapes attributed to other turners. Back then, all new turners were taught the "traditional" gouge grind. The traditional gouge grind has probably been around for 100 years, and it's something you rarely see these days.....simply because the momentum of the woodturning herd has all but made it extinct.

In my opinion, the traditional grind (if shaped well) is a more versatile and can produce a finer cut in difficult places, than any of the swept back grinds.

For those who are unaware of the traditional gouge grind, it's produced using the "V-arm" of the Wolverine jig. The Wolverine makes it easy, but I suppose other turners have made their own simple jigs to produce this grind. It's not complicated, and because of that, it's also very easy to learn.

I suspect there will be a great pushback from the herd here, but this is because the traditional grind is seldom seen anymore.....virtually nobody is teaching it.....and very few turners are using it. Awareness of the traditional grind these days is practically non-existent, except for a few turners who have been turning for close to 40, or more years.

Just to be clear here, I first began using the swept back grind about 35 years ago, during a time when most turners were first learning this new approach to gouge grind shapes. I eventually was using the swept back grind exclusively. Back then, I transitioned from the traditional grind to the swept back grind......prior to transitioning back to the traditional grind about 20 years ago. When I transitioned back the traditional grind, it was after I had been turning for a couple decades.....so, at that time, I had some experience under my belt to evaluate the usefulness of the various grinds that were available and being taught.

Right now, I don't think I have a single gouge that still has a swept back shape.....and, that Vari-grind jig for the Wolverine is gathering dust!

=o=

Here's the thing I wonder... any really decent videos on actually doing and using that grind? Most every turner and YouTube video I've watched uses vari-grind jig for sharpening and swears by the swept back grind, but to my recollection I have yet to watch a decent youtube on that traditional grind and its use... so now I wonder if that might be "my" solution , since I'm basically self taught from watching turning videos on Youtube, I don't think I have ever even tried the traditional grind....

 

[Curt Vogt]

Howdy Odie, Interesting thoughts on the type of grind. I am wondering if you could take a photo or three of the "traditional grind" to share with us?

 

[Odie]

Here's the thing I wonder... any really decent videos on actually doing and using that grind? Most every turner and YouTube video I've watched uses vari-grind jig for sharpening and swears by the swept back grind, but to my recollection I have yet to watch a decent youtube on that traditional grind and its use... so now I wonder if that might be "my" solution , since I'm basically self taught from watching turning videos on Youtube, I don't think I have ever even tried the traditional grind....

I am not aware of any current instruction on the traditional grind. In my thinking, the transition from TG to SBG has been universal and complete. This transition occurred during a time in the early 90's when most turners didn't have computers yet, and I remember the furious transition, where most all woodturners considered the new swept back grind an industry wide innovation.....Including me! When I made the transition, I had been turning for 10 years, or so, and as I look back now, I consider myself not a particularly good turner back then.....even though I thought I was a better turner then, than I do now with my hindsight.

I remember sometime about 20 years ago, I had seen someone's compilation of all the different grinds with photos right here on the AAW forums. It was a well-done reference.......but the traditional grind was completely absent! I commented on this at the time, but the woodturning community was on a fast-track with the thinking that the only grinds that had any value are the swept back grinds.

Howdy Odie, Interesting thoughts on the type of grind. I am wondering if you could take a photo or three of the "traditional grind" to share with us?

I believe I have some photos comparing the two types of grinds.....I'll look, but I have many hundreds of woodturning photos that are not very well organized----->Unfortunately, it's one of those "round tuits" that I've never had!

=o=

 

[Odie]

Well, I guess it depends not only when but also where you started. I started turning in the early sixties in Sweden. All gouges were what the British call continental gouges i.e. forged from a flat steel and had a moderate swept back grind. There was no division in bowl gouges and spindle gouges. Looks very much like the spindle gouges I use today. For bowl gouges I today use the now common, milled from round HSS with a swept back grind.

View attachment 85497

True, Lennart.....

As far as that goes, I consider there to be two distinctly different woodturning communities......the USA community, and the international community. Even at that, you might want to break that down into more than one international community, but I do consider the USA community to be a self-contained entity.

=o=

 

[Tom Rice]

I feel very lucky to have learned basic woodturning skills back in the early 1980's. Back then, there was no such thing as a swept back grind.....or, the Ellsworth grind, among other swept back grind shapes attributed to other turners. Back then, all new turners were taught the "traditional" gouge grind. The traditional gouge grind has probably been around for 100 years, and it's something you rarely see these days.....simply because the momentum of the woodturning herd has all but made it extinct.

In my opinion, the traditional grind (if shaped well) is more versatile and can produce a finer cut in difficult places, than any of the swept back grinds.

For those who are unaware of the traditional gouge grind, it's produced using the "V-arm" of the Wolverine jig. The Wolverine makes it easy, but I suppose other turners have made their own simple jigs to produce this grind. It's not complicated, and because of that, it's also very easy to learn.

I suspect there will be a great pushback from the herd here, but this is because the traditional grind is seldom seen anymore.....virtually nobody is teaching it.....and very few turners are using it. Awareness of the traditional grind these days is practically non-existent, except for a few turners who have been turning for close to 40, or more years.

Just to be clear here, I first began using the swept back grind about 35 years ago, during a time when most turners were first learning this new approach to gouge grind shapes. I eventually was using the swept back grind exclusively. Back then, I transitioned from the traditional grind to the swept back grind......prior to transitioning back to the traditional grind about 20 years ago. When I transitioned back to the traditional grind, it was after I had been turning for a couple decades.....so, at that time, I had some experience under my belt to evaluate the usefulness of the various grinds that were available and being taught.

Right now, I don't think I have a single gouge that still has a swept back shape.....and, that Vari-grind jig for the Wolverine is gathering dust!

=o=

For myself,
Being a newb and all, that old school grind tends to be easier to control really, that appears to be what a few well known turners use for bowl interiors too, that was all an old friend who was kinda my mentor in a lot of ways in carpentry ever used, scrapers a couple gouges and a parting tool were his arsenal, all ground freehand on a regular old bench grinder with a light touch, nothin fancy but man he could turn out some cool pieces.

 

[robo hippy]

When some one mentions the "traditional" grind, I think of one where the bevel runs straight across the bottom of the gouge, pretty much no sweep to the bevel at all. Other than that, I don't know. I can't think of how that could be done with the Wolverine set up. As for swept back gouges, not sure how far back they go, but a long time. I haven't used one since I learned platform sharpening, and that may go back 15 years or so. The swept back design is kind of a jack of all trades, but also, a master of none. I use the 40/40 and a variety of BOB tools.

robo hippy

 

[hughie]

I think its maybe horses for courses. I have one gouge square ground as Reed has mentioned roughly at 55' for internal open bowls. I run 40 and 45 on my gouges, but predominately 40.

But I would think it goes back to a time when milling machines either were not around or sufficently designed. A time of the blacksmith.
Heres a previous thread https://www.woodworkforums.com/archive/index.php/t-238520.html

 

[Odie]

When some one mentions the "traditional" grind, I think of one where the bevel runs straight across the bottom of the gouge, pretty much no sweep to the bevel at all. Other than that, I don't know. I can't think of how that could be done with the Wolverine set up. As for swept back gouges, not sure how far back they go, but a long time. I haven't used one since I learned platform sharpening, and that may go back 15 years or so. The swept back design is kind of a jack of all trades, but also, a master of none. I use the 40/40 and a variety of BOB tools.

robo hippy

Howdy Robo.....

What's a "BOB" tool? I doubt there is any popular grind that I don't have some basic knowledge about, but when people use abbreviations, it sometimes doesn't help understanding just what is being discussed. In posts, I normally try to use the full term at least once, so that when the abbreviation is used, the reader has a reference point. Thanks.

I think you have a pretty good idea of what a traditional gouge grind is. What's important, is to get a very slight convex shape to the wings.....not straight across. And yes, it's mostly done on the Vari-grind jig these days, but it's such a simple setup, that it's easily done with a very rudimental homemade jig.

Thanks for commenting....

=o=