Knobdimple/button Removal in vase

[JDaniels]

Hello,
I need a little advice. I am having a terrible time removing a "knob" in the bottom a vase. The vase is about 2 foot tall about 7 1/2 in wide, the top of the bowl has about a 2-3 in hole, and the knob on the inside is probably about 2-3 inches long. No matter what I have tried, I can not seem to get it removed. I made 3 ft long scraper for the inside and it works great as long as I stay on the side of the inside of the bowl, but I can not find anything to help me get ride of the knob. I'm thinking about buying a long drill bit and putting a handle on it and drilling out the center before I get started next time. Any thought on the removal and drilling out the hole before hand.
thanks,
Jay

 

[george morris]

Jay have you tried putting a negative rake on the long scraper? By negative rake I mean a small reverse angle on the top portion of the scraper this makes it not very aggressive and less catchy but needs to be refreshed often! Hope this works the drill seams like a good idea in the future! George

 

[pfduffy]

bottom of bowl nib

Jay, Try taking the scraper from the right hand side and slightly below the center thru the nib at a constant distance and at a angle of approximately 45 degrees. You should be shaving off the nib a few thousands of an inch at each pass. You could practice this maneuver on a more visible nib/shallow bowl before doing the deep one. OTOH, why do you need to remove the nib? I know of no one with arms that long and skinny! Good Luck! Phil

 

[Steve Worcester]

Why not use the same tool you are using to hollow? The biggest issue is getting the tool parallel to the bed and getting it exactly on center.

 

[Malcolm Smith]

Hello,
I need a little advice. I am having a terrible time removing a "knob" in the bottom a vase. The vase is about 2 foot tall about 7 1/2 in wide, the top of the bowl has about a 2-3 in hole, and the knob on the inside is probably about 2-3 inches long. No matter what I have tried, I can not seem to get it removed. I made 3 ft long scraper for the inside and it works great as long as I stay on the side of the inside of the bowl, but I can not find anything to help me get ride of the knob. I'm thinking about buying a long drill bit and putting a handle on it and drilling out the center before I get started next time. Any thought on the removal and drilling out the hole before hand.
thanks,
Jay

Since you are working blind, I would put a piece of tape on the tool to indicate the depth to the bottom of the bowl. Work the tool with a lot of patience. You could even put a piece of tape that indicates where the top of the nob is. It's a series of cuts starting at the very top of the knob that will remove it. It may take some time to do this but you need to work down from the top of the knob.

Malcolm Smith

 

[JDaniels]

Nib Removal

Jay have you tried putting a negative rake on the long scraper? By negative rake I mean a small reverse angle on the top portion of the scraper this makes it not very aggressive and less catchy but needs to be refreshed often! Hope this works the drill seams like a good idea in the future! George

It does have a negative rake and I am going to try it some more tomorrow. I may just need to be more patient....not one of my strong suits. Thanks for your help.
Jay

 

[JDaniels]

Nib Removal

Jay, Try taking the scraper from the right hand side and slightly below the center thru the nib at a constant distance and at a angle of approximately 45 degrees. You should be shaving off the nib a few thousands of an inch at each pass. You could practice this maneuver on a more visible nib/shallow bowl before doing the deep one. OTOH, why do you need to remove the nib? I know of no one with arms that long and skinny! Good Luck! Phil

I'll give this a try too. I did take my Sorby Hollowmaster, flipped the circular cutter around, and tried to cut it facing the center of the bowl. It seemed to work for a while but was catching like crazy. I hate the look of the nib at the bottom, even though most probably won't see it.
Thanks,
Jay

 

[JDaniels]

Nib Removal

Why not use the same tool you are using to hollow? The biggest issue is getting the tool parallel to the bed and getting it exactly on center.

I have tried, but due to the length of the arm over the rest, it is throwing it off center and my leverage is poor. I keep having to reset the piece into the chuck, even though it is in the steady rest.

 

[JDaniels]

Nib Removal

Since you are working blind, I would put a piece of tape on the tool to indicate the depth to the bottom of the bowl. Work the tool with a lot of patience. You could even put a piece of tape that indicates where the top of the nob is. It's a series of cuts starting at the very top of the knob that will remove it. It may take some time to do this but you need to work down from the top of the knob.

Malcolm Smith

i am going to see about using the tape idea. It may make me feel better to see that i am making some progress if the tape starts to disappear inside the bowl. I am going to try some of the other ideas too [and some patience].
Thanks,

 

[Charlie Knighton]

is your hole large enough to put tool rest like a box maker uses inside the hf????? 24" deep is quite deep and i have some problems sometimes with nibs over 8", it does help to be able to put tool rest inside hf

 

[Tom Lewis]

I have had the same problem. I tried everything I could think of, and finally solved it with 80 grit sanding disk. I made a long sanding pad extension that chucks in my sanding drill on one end and holds the sanding disc on the other. It's like #155-0600 in Craft Supplies USA Woodturners Catalog, only I made it longer.
There may be better ways to remove the "Nib" but the sanding pad works.

 

[john lucas]

You've had good advice so far. What I suggest from now on is to work on the nub all along. It should never get that large. It's much easier to remove when it's tiny.
I put the tool below the nub, find it and then move the tool up and then to the left. This takes a small bite. do the same thin again. It takes a while because the wood in the center is barely moving.

 

[odie]

This Extend-A-Sand attachment for my angled Sioux drill would be perfect for your needs. They are manufactured for "the sanding glove", but I got mine a couple of years ago on a close-out from CSUSA.

otis of cologne

 

[Tony K. in NC]

Use a drill next time

Not sure how to tell you for your current problem, but i can say i have a 24" long 3/8" drill bit that i turned a handle and 2-part epoxyed the bit into. Before you start hollowing use it with lathe running 300-500 and drill a couple inches in, hollow to that point then drill a couple inches again. the reason i only do a couple inches at a time is the bit will wander if you drill the whole thing at one time. an off center 3/8 hole 10" into a vessel, now we can talk about catchy, then you end up with the nub again. when that has happened to me i did what one other already said "80 gouge"

 

[JDaniels]

is your hole large enough to put tool rest like a box maker uses inside the hf????? 24" deep is quite deep and i have some problems sometimes with nibs over 8", it does help to be able to put tool rest inside hf

No it was too small. I did try though. Things like this make those of us who are anal retentive a little nuts.

 

[JDaniels]

Ideas

Thanks guys. These are all some great ideas. I think I am going to give some of these a try. Sounds like I will have to turn (pun intended) the nib removal into some sort of Zen meditation as I just need to show patience and try some different techniques since I let the nib get so large. A good opportunity to experiment and see which way works best for me. It'll make me better in the long run.
Thanks,
Jay

 

[JDaniels]

Using a Drill Next Time

Not sure how to tell you for your current problem, but i can say i have a 24" long 3/8" drill bit that i turned a handle and 2-part epoxyed the bit into. Before you start hollowing use it with lathe running 300-500 and drill a couple inches in, hollow to that point then drill a couple inches again. the reason i only do a couple inches at a time is the bit will wander if you drill the whole thing at one time. an off center 3/8 hole 10" into a vessel, now we can talk about catchy, then you end up with the nub again. when that has happened to me i did what one other already said "80 gouge"

I'm going to see about getting one of these tomorrow. Sounds like it would be perfect.
Thanks,
Jay

 

[Joe Greiner]

For better function as a vase, I use a plastic tube to contain any water. My surplus supplier defines them as paint ball containers. Glass test tubes or jars also work well, but the hole depth and shape must be more accurately defined; a plastic tube or jar (e.g. Rolaids) can be cut afterwards. The tube also helps to align the flower stems. And the wood doesn't need a special interior waterproof finish.

A highly respected wood sculptor of my acquaintance suggests drilling first for hollow forms, and then cutting outward. Duffy's method also works; start at about 4 o'clock, and work towards 11 o'clock - a lot like what lucas says, along with his other comments.

[BTW, this is substantially the way a Spoon Bit works. Google it for more info.]

Just tossing my two cents into the pot.

Joe

 

[john lucas]

Be careful with the long sanding disc extensions. You have to use a light touch and try to stay away from the uphill spinning of the work (stay to the left or dead center) I had one grab on me with course sandpaper and it succeeded in throwing the disc in a large arc that rapidly got larger and blew up the vessel, bent the shaft of the sander extension and hurt my wrist.
The extend-a-sand would probably work a lot better and be more controllable than my home made rig but it could still do the same thing.

 

[hockenbery]

The joke going around is to paint the top red and feature it as a volcano in the bottom.

Another technique you might try.
If you can get dead center on top with a 3/8" wide cutter inn a straight tool you can bore down the center. This is fairly easy with a trapped hollowing system and very difficult with a hand held tool.

you have to use no cutting pressure as you start since the tip wants to flex around the cutter. once you have the hole started it will feed a bit on its own and swing the tip left and right slightly to cut down near the bottom then blend in from left to center.

Happy turning,
Al

 

[Wyatt Holm]

Are you using a hollowing rig? That part is usually the hardest part of a hollow form. When I do it I first put the tool inside and look inside so that I can see what angle it needs to be to get the nubbin. Then I remember where it is and switch on the lathe and take it away with light cuts.
Wyatt

 

[JDaniels]

Update

Thanks for all the suggestions. To date, I turned a long piece of wood, flattened one end, added a slightly concave center section on the flattened end, and glued a piece of 50 grit sandpaper with CA on it. My reasoning being that if the center is slightly concave, then it will be less likely to throw my "sanding pole" off center and should leave, if any, a very, very small nib as to hopefully not be noticable. I hope to try it today and will keep you posted.

For future HF vessels, I bought a 1/2 drill bit about 2 ft long with a ~3/8 in shank, and have turned a handle for it using my Jacob's chuck to be sure the tool is straight in the handle. I'll try this first next time and keep you posted.

I am also making note of the other suggestions, in case these ideas give me trouble.
Thanks a lot,
Jay

 

[JDaniels]

Are you using a hollowing rig? That part is usually the hardest part of a hollow form. When I do it I first put the tool inside and look inside so that I can see what angle it needs to be to get the nubbin. Then I remember where it is and switch on the lathe and take it away with light cuts.
Wyatt

I have 2-3 basic hollowing tools, the Sorby Hollowmaster, an Elbow Tool, and along 3/4 round 3 ft piece of steel that I use as a bowl scraper for the inside of the bowls.

The Elbow Tool really does hog out the wood, but one of it's weak points in the difficulty of removing the nib. The long cutter can move out of position and you end up readjusting it frequently. The result being you round out the screw holding it down trying to get the cutter tight enough to hold the cutter. I still use it as it does hog it out, but screw replacement and the continual adjustments are pain.

The round cutter on the Hollowmaster gets clogged frequently, but it works well for smoothing out the sections nearest the opening of the HF that I have been turning.

The 3/4 round 3 ft long scraper works great for a piece of cheap metal that cost me $12 plus the time it took me to grindg it down. It really beat paying ~$125-150 which is what the Texan line of deep hollowing tools cost each.
Thanks,
Jay

 

[Burt Alcantara]

Jay,
Since you are using a hollowing system I'd suggest you place the tip of a straight boring tip into the lathe with the power off. Find out where the very tip of the nub is by rubbing the cutter up and down, left and right. Make sure you set your tool rest so the cutter is a hair below the tip.

When you turn the lathe on gently ease onto the nub. If you push too hard the tip will swing around wildly so think that you're tickling it. It's a slow tedious process but it works.

Helps to have a burr on the cutter.

Burt

 

[Tony K. in NC]

Elbo tool advice

Take the long cutter out put in vice use dremel to score it mid way length wise and snap in half, now you have shorter easier to manage cutter and a spare one to boot.

 

[JDaniels]

Jay,
Since you are using a hollowing system I'd suggest you place the tip of a straight boring tip into the lathe with the power off. Find out where the very tip of the nub is by rubbing the cutter up and down, left and right. Make sure you set your tool rest so the cutter is a hair below the tip.

When you turn the lathe on gently ease onto the nub. If you push too hard the tip will swing around wildly so think that you're tickling it. It's a slow tedious process but it works.

Helps to have a burr on the cutter.

Burt

That makes sense. I'll give this a shot. I've been sanding the nib out. That is an exercise in patience...been at it for a couple of hours now..but I have all but about 1/2 inche out now. I won't do this again......a lesson well learned

 

[JDaniels]

Update

Take the long cutter out put in vice use dremel to score it mid way length wise and snap in half, now you have shorter easier to manage cutter and a spare one to boot.

Great idea. I'll do this....sounds like you have one.
Thanks,
Jay

 

[Tony K. in NC]

sure do

sure do, and it makes a huge difference, i have an elbo tool, pro-forme advanced sytem, sorby midi hollowing tool, and a couple self made hollowing tool,(basically oland tools) And they all get used based on the vessel i am working on. Mainly i use the pro-forme, especially since i have the adapter to use it in the elbo tool, now you want to talk about hawgin out some wood that does the trick. But the one thing i do on all vessels is what i talked about earlier, drilling a couple inches at a time then hollowing to it and drilling a bit more.

 

[JDaniels]

Drilling out

sure do, and it makes a huge difference, i have an elbo tool, pro-forme advanced sytem, sorby midi hollowing tool, and a couple self made hollowing tool,(basically oland tools) And they all get used based on the vessel i am working on. Mainly i use the pro-forme, especially since i have the adapter to use it in the elbo tool, now you want to talk about hawgin out some wood that does the trick. But the one thing i do on all vessels is what i talked about earlier, drilling a couple inches at a time then hollowing to it and drilling a bit more.

Tony,
I really liked that idea. I am going to drill out the center a little at a time. I don't want to go off center and I don't want the bit to get too deep, grab, and beat me to death and break the bit. I bit that long is not going to take much to break and they are a little pricey. I will just have to remember to keep the last little bit of the previous hole so it will be a little easier to keep the center.

What does the pro-forme look like?
Thanks for your help.
Jay

 

[Tony K. in NC]

like this

http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/section.php?xSec=2

It is a hook style tool but has adjustable gauge that keeps you from taking to much and catching, you adjust for dry or green. The one thing is it takes some getting used to cause once you start cutting you have to feed it in at a fair pace.

 

[JDaniels]

Finished

I finally got finished sanding the nib, and boy, I don't want to have to do that again.

Initially, I had to hand turn the bowl while I sanded as my lathe won't go less than about 600 rpm. It was throwing the "sanding pole" to the edges of the vase, and come off-center in the chuck, and I'd have to rechuck it. I hand turned it for a while (it was getting tiring) and while the kids were cleaning up the 2-3 inches of sawdust I had created from various turnings, I let them turn a while for me. (I know I am awful, but a little bit of work builds character ;-)) After a while, about an inch off the bottom, I could begin to cut the lathe back on.

 

[JDaniels]

Demonstrator

Tony,
Nice looking tool with a nice price too. I'd like to see that. Do you know of someone who might could demonstrate at our club meeting. I'm on the Palmetto Woodturners board and I would like to recommend a demonstration of this to the club. It does pay and we have about 185 members in the club. Just about can't give a turning away around here with so many members. ;-) I'm doing a lot of hollowing these days and can use as many little tricks as I can get. Is this something that you could do? I'd like to see some of your other hollowing tools as well, especially the homemade ones.
Jay

 

[Tony K. in NC]

I think it could be arranged

I am about 3 1/2 hours from you. i actually do a fair amount of work in elgin, lugoff, camden areas. Email me

 

[Tony K. in NC]

just spotted this on youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuUzgbr6hs
This is the setup i use alot of times, only i haven't bit the bullet for a laser rig yet, thinking of just making one myself. I also have a couple bars that i can use to go deeper if need be, with or without elbo tool.

 

[JDaniels]

Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuUzgbr6hs
This is the setup i use alot of times, only i haven't bit the bullet for a laser rig yet, thinking of just making one myself. I also have a couple bars that i can use to go deeper if need be, with or without elbo tool.

Hey Tony
Thanks. It was good the see the laser attachment too. I got the laser attachment for Christmas, but I have not used it much yet. I am going to have to play with it some to figure out how to keep it from moving. It wants to move off of the tip of the cutter. I think that cutting the long cutter in half, as you recommended will reduce the movement some as there will be less for the bowl to catch on and a little less leverage, thus dampening the vibration and movement.

Have you had any problems with stripping the bolts/screws that hold down the cutter or had a problem with the threads getting damaged from use. I am having to "re-thread" the hole for the screw that is used to hold the cutter in place. I could not find one at Home Depot or Lowes that would fit the threads. I suspect that either the above has happened or the manufacturer tapered the hole or designed the threads not to fit so I would have to order some more screws from them, but I don't know for sure.
I have not done it yet, but I have gotten the tools to do so.
thanks,
Jay

 

[Tony K. in NC]

Haven't had that problem

That may be directly linked to the fact that you have been using the whole length cutter, meaning you had to torque the screw alot more to keep it from moving. do you have the cutter on the front side or the back side of the screw. It is best to put it behind the screw closer to the tail stock.

 

[JDaniels]

Yep

i had it away from the tailstock, cutter in front. I'll rotate it back closer to the tailstock and give that a shot. That should provide more support for the cutter, especially if I cut the cutter into 2 pieces and have less hanging over. Thanks for letting me pick your brain.
Jay