Master Woodturner Program

[Bud S]

Our local club is wanting to start a master woodturner program.Does the AAW or any clubs have a program that we could use a a model?

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think that it would help if you described your club's vision regarding the purpose and goals of the program. I think that would give your club clearer direction towards how to go about implementing the program.

 

[Dave Delo]

There was an interesting discussion last year on this subject with some differing points of view.
http://woodturnersunlimited.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2302&p=26385

 

[Bill Boehme]

Dave, after reading through the discussion in your link, I feel much the same as Alan Trout and think that implementation of a unnecessary structured program would stifle the development of woodturning much in the same way that creativity was hampered by the apprenticeship system in Europe. I would like to know what is wrong with woodturning the way that it currently exists?

 

[Dave Delo]

Bill,I think you asked the correct question in your first reply. Is the OP's original question about master woodturner programs geared towards already highly skilled & experienced turners within their group trying to obtain some sort of certification that means their just about as good as it gets when it comes to turning on the wood lathe. Kind of agree with your point of view if that's the interpretation. But after reading the OP a couple times, I was thinking he might be asking about some type of course that could take a beginner turner and bring them up to a certain level where they understand lathe safety, how to hold wood, how to sharpen tools etc. and upon completion, they would received that "master woodturner" designation. On that side of the fence, I probably agree.

 

[hockenbery]

Dave,
I tend to agree with Alan and Bill.
The difficulty in defining meaningful criteria, the unwieldy bureaucracy, and lack of clear problem to solve make unappealing to me.

It sounds a bit like a merit badge for adults.
Many people do enjoy collecting awards and working toward goals.
The Marc Adams school has had some success with their masters program


Bud,
I think you can set measures of achievement for recognition.

One club I belong to has no formal program but we have half a dozen "master turners"
The individuals have their work juried into competitive high level shows, demoed at the AAW, Florida Symposium, regional symposiums, and numerous clubs.

You could set some parameters. A master turner must do x of the following
Be juried into an ACC show
Have pieces in 3 museum collections
Be juried into a xxxx. Top level local show ( for us it might be the Gasparilla Art Festival)
Demoed for 5 clubs the candidate is not a member of
Demoed for 2 regional symposiums
Taught at a major craft school twice
Demoed at the AAW Symposium
Sold 4 pieces for more than $1,000 each
Had 3 articles published
Had a piece juried into an AAW show


But it is sort of like after anyone does a few of the things on the list they don't need a master's token.

My 3 cents,
Al

 

[Bill Blasic]

Having just read the discussion I have to wholeheartedly agree with Alan as this is just fraught with possible unintended results. I know who the master woodturners are and I don't believe that any scripted steps to a title will make others so.

 

[hockenbery]

It occurred to me that Central Florida has a masters training program.
At its center is the FLORIDA symposium.

The symposium is built with education as its core mission.

There are classes on the first day of the symposium.
Scholarships to craft schools and a day in the shop are given to attendees through a drawing,
The profits $1400 last year go to 7 clubs who own the symposium to be used only for education.
The symposium has a chapter presidents meeting which usually has a rep from every Florida chapter.
There is a chapters email list that makes it easy for chapter to share demonstrators and invite people to special demonstrations.

While not part of the symposium several of the demonstrators will come early and stay late doing demonstrations and classes for local chapters.

Some clubs use the the $1400 to run classes and demonstrations, to send members to craft schools, send members to the Florida symposium, and to buy video and demonstration equipment.

When turners participate in these education programs they become better turners. they evolve into their own directions and pass on their respective achievements in demonstrations to the clubs, maybe the Florida symposium, and maybe the AAW symposium.

The FWS was begun by 5 chapter with a vision. Each chapter put up $1000 to run the first one. The rest is a legacy to woodturning.

Al

 

[Bud S]

Masters Program

I guess what we were looking for is the kind of information you all have provided. Al, your list of qualifications was especially helpful.

Our initial idea was to create recognition for some of our talented turners as well as have criteria for others to achieve masters status. Judging from the replies, we will have to give some additional thought to the whole idea.

Thanks for all the replies.

Bud

Dave,

I tend to agree with Alan and Bill.
The difficulty in defining meaningful criteria, the unwieldy bureaucracy, and lack of clear problem to solve make unappealing to me.

It sounds a bit like a merit badge for adults.
Many people do enjoy collecting awards and working toward goals.
The Marc Adams school has had some success with their masters program


Bud,
I think you can set measures of achievement for recognition.

One club I belong to has no formal program but we have half a dozen "master turners"
The individuals have their work juried into competitive high level shows, demoed at the AAW, Florida Symposium, regional symposiums, and numerous clubs.

You could set some parameters. A master turner must do x of the following
Be juried into an ACC show
Have pieces in 3 museum collections
Be juried into a xxxx. Top level local show ( for us it might be the Gasparilla Art Festival)
Demoed for 5 clubs the candidate is not a member of
Demoed for 2 regional symposiums
Taught at a major craft school twice
Demoed at the AAW Symposium
Sold 4 pieces for more than $1,000 each
Had 3 articles published
Had a piece juried into an AAW show


But it is sort of like after anyone does a few of the things on the list they don't need a master's token.

My 3 cents,
Al

 

[Clifton C]

A poem, by me

aaaaaaaaMaster Woodturner
aaaaaaaaaaaaathe title
Some folks who should have it don’t want it.
And some who have taken it shouldn’t.

My poor attempt at channeling Piet Hein

cc

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I would consider myself a master if I ever got to the point where I had nothing else to learn. That will never happen because there is always some thing else to discover. Takes me back to my days as a hang glider pilot. They had a rating system. I was over qualified for the highest ranking, but never went through the certification. I had seen too many who had passed, and should not have, if I am going to be polite about it. To be accepted as some one who has a pretty good idea of what I am doing. Okay. To be accepted as some one who can convey hints that help others learn, and see that light bulb of understanding turn on, that is Priceless to me. To see some one walk off with one of my bowls cradling it in their arms like a new baby, again, Priceless! Other than that, I don't need or want anything else.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Takes me back to my days as a hang glider pilot. They had a rating system...

Things like that or any other kind of certification like scuba diver or a license to drive a car or fly a plane are very easy to come up with skill and knowledge requirements. Woodturning is a very different animal if we are wanting to think of it in terms of potentially being a creative medium. Trying to stuff artistic creativity into a box sounds like a way of restricting it to being nothing beyond mechanical skills in crafting things on a lathe.

I can see the benefit of offering an in-depth "master" class to take woodturners from ground zero up to confident use of tools, but conferring any sort of formal recognition (such as Master Woodturner) doesn't appeal to me although I can see how a newbie would be looking for confirmation of his ability and that might scratch that itch. I also think that most skilled woodturners would balk at putting up with such bureaucracy. I suspect that Reed, Odie, Al, and I each approach things a bit differently although we each could achieve the same end result if asked to do a specific thing. While I would be very interested in expanding my horizons by learning how my fellow woodturners do things, I would not want to be told that there is only one "right" way. There is more than one way to skin a ... uh ... never mind.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I also think that most skilled woodturners would balk at putting up with such bureaucracy. I suspect that Reed, Odie, Al, and I each approach things a bit differently although we each could achieve the same end result if asked to do a specific thing. While I would be very interested in expanding my horizons by learning how my fellow woodturners do things, I would not want to be told that there is only one "right" way. There is more than one way to skin a ... uh ... never mind.

I started to post on this last night as I was thinking of the Mentor system. I would agree with Robo and Bill. The idea is not to reward those good at turning already , but to get more interested in learning and turning and fewer watching and sitting. The good turners get the rewards the want and need , while the beginner is not getting enough attention. We have started trying to do quarterly Turnfiest or home shop events to give hands on that cannot be done at meetings.
Al your list is enviable however this sounds like a professional turner to me and after doing all that would not need more recognition.
As I said our club hopes (yes that is an immediate concern in less populated areas like we have here in Mississippi and Louisiana ) is to attract and keep up interest and teach new turners. Louisiana does not have a club north of Lafayette ( for you folks up north that is only a little north of New Orleans). So as I said we are hopeful our efforts will grow our club over the 50 member mark from last year and meet the needs of our members better.

 

[hockenbery]

AAW does have a resource developed by Alan Leland.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.woodtu...spin_preview_v.pdf?hhSearchTerms="Curriculum"

It takes a beginner from ground zero to the intermediate level.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

AAW does have a resource developed by Alan Leland.
http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.woodtu...spin_preview_v.pdf?hhSearchTerms="Curriculum"

It takes a beginner from ground zero to the intermediate level.

Al not to belittle the AAW resources (I discovered then too late for tremendous help for me) but a lot of these guys are not members despite encouragement and need some hands on to keep them from being a drop out with a very large boat anchor at home.

 

[hockenbery]

Al not to belittle the AAW resources (I discovered then too late for tremendous help for me) but a lot of these guys are not members despite encouragement and need some hands on to keep them from being a drop out with a very large boat anchor at home.

Gerald this is a resource for your mentors.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Gerald this is a resource for your mentors.

Thanks. I thought it was intended as self taught

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Louisiana does not have a club north of Lafayette ( for you folks up north that is only a little north of New Orleans)...

According to Justin Wilson, Lafayette is way up north.

 

[Gretch Flo]

There is more than one way to skin a ... uh ... never mind.

Thanks BIll. But I even use that expression, but then I am a blunt person!!!!!! Gretch

 

[Hu Lowery]

well, need some clarafication I can see!

Justin actually said the Mason-Dixon line ran right down the main street of Bunkie which is considerably north of Lafayette. Basically though, south of the I-10/I-12 line is South Louisiana, above it except an area of Acadiana is North.

Now about that "Master" thing. Been there, cost about twenty thousand, paid a lot of money too. I was a Master CNE. It took ten or twelve tests to certify and by the time I was there I had about a paragraph of initials behind my name. The result was a lot of dollars at the time. What would "Master Woodturner" be worth in terms of cash?

I figure after I sell a few bowls I'll just call myself a "Pro Bowler"! Enough status to suit me.

Hu

 

[Robert Elliott]

what's next?

What's next in the discussion? Grand Master? Exulted High Grand Master? Thies titles originally came from European Schools which received the appointing authority from Lodges and ultimity, Monarchy.

Maybe we need to appoint a monark! Then we can have a coo.

Titles were designed to show respect and that is in the eye of the be holder. My PH.d only means to me that everything I learned and paid for is ancient history now and with it and $2.50 will get me a BigMac.

 

[Malcolm Zander]

Woodturning Training program

Bud, there is indeed an excellent program along the lines of your interest in New Zealand. I described the benefits in my article in the June 2013 American Woodturner, p.47. The URL link in this article has now been replaced with http://www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/aw/suppl_17.pdf This program has raised the standard of woodturning in New Zealand. It has now been taken over by the NZ National Association of Woodworkers. See also http://www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/FUNdamentals/NewZealandWoodturning.pdf where you can read some of the details.

 

[john lucas]

Well there should be 2 ways to look at this. One is simply a club status. That is you set goals for the turners to try and achieve these are of course voluntary and rules are established by the club. It can be a lot of fun and somewhat akin to merit badges in Boy Scouts.
The other would be a more structured organization with rules and such. I'm on the fence with this. In theory everyone passing "the test" is considered a qualified turner and as such you should feel comfortable hiring them for a job. In practice however to meet the status quo criteria you often rule out those who push the boundaries For example Stoney Lamar's work or Derek Weidman or even malcom Zander. Their work is not your normal architectural or functional work. If the voting crowd considers that as the standard for being a grand master then they would be voted out. It's a slippery slope when you start applying titles to those who create art work.

 

[Dave Delo]

Bud, there is indeed an excellent program along the lines of your interest in New Zealand. I described the benefits in my article in the June 2013 American Woodturner, p.47. The URL link in this article has now been replaced with http://www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/aw/suppl_17.pdf This program has raised the standard of woodturning in New Zealand. It has now been taken over by the NZ National Association of Woodworkers. See also http://www.woodturner.org/resource/resmgr/FUNdamentals/NewZealandWoodturning.pdf where you can read some of the details.

Malcolm,

Thanks for posting this information. Our chapter has recently decided to make a concerted effort to increase the skill level within the membership with its primary focus being the new or beginner turner. We have had a number of 1st time visitors come to our monthly meetings lately that fit that criteria and want to provide something that could help get them plugged into the chapter itself but more importantly, get them to a point where they can tackle many different projects properly and with safety in mind.

I've been able to put together a basic outline of what to cover from a number of different sources and will probably pull a couple of nuggets from your informational links. How we present this information (on-site, off-site, before or after meeting etc.) hasn't been decided yet but thanks for your post. It was helpful.

DD

 

[Charlie Knighton]

diversity

learning curve.....one's own path

peer pressure

xxxxxxxx

+ 1 on john lucas reservations

 

[Odie]

What's next in the discussion? Grand Master? Exulted High Grand Master? Thies titles originally came from European Schools which received the appointing authority from Lodges and ultimity, Monarchy.

Maybe we need to appoint a monark! Then we can have a coo.

Titles were designed to show respect and that is in the eye of the be holder. My PH.d only means to me that everything I learned and paid for is ancient history now and with it and $2.50 will get me a BigMac.

Well there should be 2 ways to look at this. One is simply a club status. That is you set goals for the turners to try and achieve these are of course voluntary and rules are established by the club. It can be a lot of fun and somewhat akin to merit badges in Boy Scouts.
The other would be a more structured organization with rules and such. I'm on the fence with this. In theory everyone passing "the test" is considered a qualified turner and as such you should feel comfortable hiring them for a job. In practice however to meet the status quo criteria you often rule out those who push the boundaries For example Stoney Lamar's work or Derek Weidman or even malcom Zander. Their work is not your normal architectural or functional work. If the voting crowd considers that as the standard for being a grand master then they would be voted out. It's a slippery slope when you start applying titles to those who create art work.

diversity

learning curve.....one's own path

peer pressure

xxxxxxxx

+ 1 on john lucas reservations

I tend to agree with these guys!

Who is to decide who is a master, and who isn't? That is the $64,000 question.......

For example, I tend to admire turnings that show a mastery of the traditional turning skills, but when you see who is acknowledged in the American Woodturner, I get the feeling embellishment is rated higher on the scale than classical turnings do. I feel very much in the minority on what I think is a great example of excellence.......

ko

 

[Cliff Walsh]

Master Turner Program

Malcolm has been very helpful. I have been trying to develop an "intermediate" level skills program and that NZ Program is great. There has been a lot of discussion here in Australia re basic skills/ embellishment shown with woodturning items. I agree with the last contributor that mastery of basic skills shown in a well turned product is more appealing than a turning, the embellishment of which can hide all manner of tear-outs, dig-ins, etc.

 

[Odie]

There has been a lot of discussion here in Australia re basic skills/ embellishment shown with woodturning items. I agree with the last contributor that mastery of basic skills shown in a well turned product is more appealing than a turning, the embellishment of which can hide all manner of tear-outs, dig-ins, etc.

Yes, absolutely true, Cliff.......

Not only has embellishment become a substitute for turning skills, but power sanding has, as well. Many years ago, wood lathe turners didn't have the power sanding options that we do now......and, to excel in this medium meant that basic skills needed to be practiced, practiced, practiced.....and mastered! If excellence was the goal, there was no other alternative. These skills included more than what the craftsman can do with the turning tool in his hands, but knowing how to prepare tools capable of making precise cleanly executed cuts that result in minimal sanding.

In the evolution of woodturning, both embellishment and power sanding have overcome the need to develop those old-time skills that were so important to those who preceded us....those who practiced the trade in our more primitive beginnings.

ko

 

[Malcolm Zander]

What immediately struck me with the NZ program when I was there a couple of years ago was the very high level of the work in not only the artistic sense but especially the technical sense. Moreso than in the average North American club. Yes, there were embellished pieces but some simple ones also and without exception the finishes were impeccable. It is not really a program intended to produce a "Master" (whatever that may be) but rather a very well-rounded woodturner who has acquired a comprehensive toolbox of skills and is capable of making high quality work in a variety of forms. The developers of this program were not interested in status or hierarchies of Pooh-Bah for the graduates. They were interested in providing a curriculum and training program by which any woodturner who was prepared to put in the hours could raise their game to a high level. In this the developers succeeded, and they have given us a very useful model.

 

[john lucas]

I disagree whole heartedly about embellishment taking the place of sanding and turning skills. You absolutely have to have a good base in order to have the embellishment be successful. Form is utmost, but only piece that have been embellished from head to toe with course methods will not show the sanding and turning marks left by a craftsman who hasn't done his or her job. Take Molly Winton's pieces for example. Sure the burning might cover up some areas but the smooth areas where her horses are would stand out like a sore thumb if they weren't turned and sanded to perfection. Burning will also not hide torn grain. It will show up as a different texture than the surrounding good wood even when burned to a char.
Many other texturing and painting techniques suffer from the same malady. If the surface below it isn't done well enough it will simply look poorly done. Even Malcom Zander's work that has almost no wood left would be dead if what is there wasn't sanded and turned to the best of his ability.
I appreciate a well turned bowl as much as anybody. But I wouldn't want the entire magazine to be just turned bowls. If you go to the instant galleries at the symposiums you do see a lot of turned bowls. However you also see a lot of embellished pieces which tells me that there are many turners out there who also want to go beyond the basic bowl.

 

[hockenbery]

I disagree whole heartedly about embellishment taking the place of sanding and turning skills. You absolutely have to have a good base in order to have the embellishment be successful. Form is utmost, but only piece that have been embellished from head to toe with course methods will not show the sanding and turning marks left by a craftsman who hasn't done his or her job. Take Molly Winton's pieces for example. Sure the burning might cover up some areas but the smooth areas where her horses are would stand out like a sore thumb if they weren't turned and sanded to perfection. Burning will also not hide torn grain. It will show up as a different texture than the surrounding good wood even when burned to a char. Many other texturing and painting techniques suffer from the same malady. If the surface below it isn't done well enough it will simply look poorly done. Even Malcom Zander's work that has almost no wood left would be dead if what is there wasn't sanded and turned to the best of his ability. I appreciate a well turned bowl as much as anybody. But I wouldn't want the entire magazine to be just turned bowls. If you go to the instant galleries at the symposiums you do see a lot of turned bowls. However you also see a lot of embellished pieces which tells me that there are many turners out there who also want to go beyond the basic bowl.

John is right on.
It begins with the form and shape.

Most embellishing techniques will show tool marks and sanding scratches.
Embellishment can't hide a bad shape or form. Often the more wood that is removed the form is all that remains.

It all comes down to flats, beads, and coves and how well they are executed

For me it is Form, form, form, form...... Surface, surface, finish

Al

 

[Hu Lowery]

Whaaaat?

Malcolm has been very helpful. I have been trying to develop an "intermediate" level skills program and that NZ Program is great. There has been a lot of discussion here in Australia re basic skills/ embellishment shown with woodturning items. I agree with the last contributor that mastery of basic skills shown in a well turned product is more appealing than a turning, the embellishment of which can hide all manner of tear-outs, dig-ins, etc.

Cliff,

You have no idea the skill level it takes for me to start the carving while roughing in the piece! A careful deep gouge here, a deliberate catch there . . . . I'm like one of those artists you see slashing paint all over a canvas and they seem to be going nowhere then they flip it upside down and there is a work of art. I'm still working on that part. I can pop a piece off of the spinning lathe with the gouge, no problem. Getting it to land on the shelf right side up and stay there, I'm still trying to refine that!

Hu

 

[john lucas]

hu. I think I'll stack a bunch of bowls behind a jet engine and throw paint at it. Heck come to think of ot I think ill just throw the bowls into the just engine and have instant segmented turnings. Some assembly required

 

[Hu Lowery]

probably would work!

hu. I think I'll stack a bunch of bowls behind a jet engine and throw paint at it. Heck come to think of ot I think ill just throw the bowls into the just engine and have instant segmented turnings. Some assembly required

John,

The jet engine thing would certainly work, people are light on do it yourself art but if you glued a couple pieces together it would work too! I saw a foot or two square of rough unplaned wood that some artist had painted one way with a solid color and then painted across the grain lightly so some of the original paint showed through. Looked like he used a four inch brush. It was expected to sell for hundreds of thousands or low millions! The brother-in-law of an old friend sculpted stick men, think cave drawings. They were a couple of inches thick at most and sold for hundreds of thousands.

Ol' PT was pretty danged smart!

Hu

 

[Odie]

What immediately struck me with the NZ program when I was there a couple of years ago was the very high level of the work in not only the artistic sense but especially the technical sense. Moreso than in the average North American club. Yes, there were embellished pieces but some simple ones also and without exception the finishes were impeccable. It is not really a program intended to produce a "Master" (whatever that may be) but rather a very well-rounded woodturner who has acquired a comprehensive toolbox of skills and is capable of making high quality work in a variety of forms. The developers of this program were not interested in status or hierarchies of Pooh-Bah for the graduates. They were interested in providing a curriculum and training program by which any woodturner who was prepared to put in the hours could raise their game to a high level. In this the developers succeeded, and they have given us a very useful model.

Malcolm, I believe you and Cliff are right on target!

Sometimes, you can judge how well your aim is, by the emotional reaction of your detractors......and, when they start telling jokes, you know you are addressing something that isn't as stable in the minds of those who disagree, as they would have you to believe.

I suspect all three of us know something that those who rely on sanding to overcome surface and form discrepancies have not yet discovered. These things can only be realized by knowing what some of our ancestor turners knew.....and, you have to cross that threshold, to know what it means to your turning. In order to cross that threshold, you have to take your tool finish (prior to sanding) to the best level possible, rather than relying on sanding to make up the difference.

We all know there are turners who embellish, who are fully capable of bringing the tool finish to a state of near perfection, whether they embellish, or not.......so, to cite an example of one or two turners who are expert on both counts, doesn't negate the hypothesis. The point is that many, dare I say most turners, would be exposed for their lack of tool control, if there wasn't some way to cover it up........sanding, burning, tile, paint, or some way that covers up a poor tool surface. Over-sanding is the most common way to do that.

It's interesting that you bring up things like "hierarchy, status, and Pooh-Bah". These descriptions tie right in with my own observations of "herd mentality", as I call it. I Don't know how things are in Canada or New Zealand, but this herd thinking, in my opinion, is one of the most destructive things preventing newer turners to have well rounded and positive input. If it doesn't fit with the herd programming, it is shunned and even ridiculed. The reason for that is the status quo must be preserved, otherwise the hierarchy will feel their positioning within might be jeopardized. The hierarchy, Pooh-Bah, and status of the upper echelons of the herd are what determines the acceptability of the technique......not the results.

From what you are telling us about the instruction in NZ, it sounds like a good way to look at it......get rid of the status and hierarchy......concentrate on tool finish, until knowledge combined with practice brings it to a level of perfection that opens doors never thought to exist!

ko

 

[john lucas]

I think I'm quite stable in my beliefs about wood embellishment. Don't know why you feel you have to put people down because they don't think just like you. There are those of us out there that actually enjoy and perhaps have the talent to turn things other than bowls. Herd mentality. Anyone who knows me will say I don't follow the herd. However I do agree with them a lot because quite frankly they are correct. You seem to be interested more in causing controversy than adding to discussions. Oh well enough said. Obviously you can't take a joke so Hu and I will simply have to laugh at ourselves. Sorry if this comes off harsh. I'm fighting a computer virus this morning and not in a good mood.

 

[hockenbery]

The point is that many, dare I say most turners, would be exposed for their lack of tool control, if there wasn't some way to cover it up........sanding, burning, tile, paint, or some way that covers up a poor tool surface. Over-sanding is the most common way to do that. concentrate on tool finish, until knowledge combined with practice brings it to a level of perfection that opens doors never thought to exist! ko

It is my experience that few people embark on embellishment until they have at least good tool control.
Most all of the demonstrators at the national and regional symposium leave excellent tool finishes on their peices because sanding is discourage for audiences that do not have dust masks. The good demonstrators at clubs are excellent too.
You really should attend a symposium sometime just to see what people are doing before casting unfounded aspersions.

I get an annual report on the 20 Minute Bowl that James McClure and I turned at the Florida symposium for entertainment about 4 years ago. A 12" maple bowl turned green, no sanding. I turned the outside while James heckled and James turned the inside.
It lives in North Carolina and gets daily use. It actually took us a little over 21 minutes. I took the time to turn a bead on the outside.
About 300 people watched us do it. No hidden tricks. Just Ellsworth ground bowl gouges and clean cuts.

Quite a few of my students can do just about as well after a 27 hour class.
Of course we stacked the deck in our favor by picking red maple.

The bowl could have benefited from a 220 and 320 sanding.
Did it need it?

Al

 

[Malcolm Zander]

Embellishment

Odie, I think that we are getting away from the original subject of the thread.

I do not have a problem with embellishment. I took a look at your website and the quality of the workmanship is very high indeed, with beautiful forms and clean finishes. However I note that you are not immune to embellishment yourself, a lovely example being your Claro walnut bowl (see attachment). A gorgeous piece.

 

[Odie]

I think I'm quite stable in my beliefs about wood embellishment. Don't know why you feel you have to put people down because they don't think just like you. There are those of us out there that actually enjoy and perhaps have the talent to turn things other than bowls. Herd mentality. Anyone who knows me will say I don't follow the herd. However I do agree with them a lot because quite frankly they are correct. You seem to be interested more in causing controversy than adding to discussions. Oh well enough said. Obviously you can't take a joke so Hu and I will simply have to laugh at ourselves. Sorry if this comes off harsh. I'm fighting a computer virus this morning and not in a good mood.

No put-down intended, John.....You and Al shouldn't take it personal. Just giving an opinion about the established methods of learning. If it's controversial, so be it, but it is a belief that's been forming for years. This is not to say there aren't individuals who break free from the "group think"......and, there most certainly are those! I know you guys hate the descriptive term of "herd", but it does fit when the group moves in a group.

Some extraordinarily accomplished turners exist today, and they didn't get there by moving with the group. Sure, John.....some of the information is correct, and some of it does not recognize the alternatives.......but to seek more than that is the substance of individualism.

ko

 

[Odie]

Odie, I think that we are getting away from the original subject of the thread.

I do not have a problem with embellishment. I took a look at your website and the quality of the workmanship is very high indeed, with beautiful forms and clean finishes. However I note that you are not immune to embellishment yourself, a lovely example being your Claro walnut bowl (see attachment). A gorgeous piece.

Hi Malcolm.......Thanks!

I think you and I have differing ideas of what embellishment is. There is nothing in your example that is anything but the unaltered natural wood......so, it doesn't fit my definition. I think you are speaking of that raised surface with the detail grooves......correct? I do believe you and John should understand that I don't intend to disparage embellishment.....I appreciate it, just as I do the works of many other turners, if it's done well. I do feel embellishment is an alternative to precision tool control in some turning examples, but definitely not in it's entirety. When it's used to conceal or cover up discrepancies in surface quality....well, yes. I similarly feel that too much sanding takes the place of tool control and sharp tools in many cases, as well. Too much sanding does alter the perfect geometry, and as explained before, when the geometry is altered, other things like intersecting corners, and detail grooves do not appeal to the aesthetics a well as could be.

Don't worry about the conversation veering from the original subject matter. It happens all the time. If we can make the leap from woodturning to discussing raccoons, then I guess anything on your mind is A-OK!

ko