Recess or tenon

[Ron Vasser]

My first post in this forum. I've been posting in the getting started forum so you guys know I'm new and appreciate all the help I got there. I've turned 3x3 by two feet long spindles for a couple of days with the spindle gouge and skew. Yesterday I add 300 pounds to the bottom of my lathe and built a sawing station. I prepared a bowl blank on my saw station, mounted it on a faceplate, struggled until late last night, and all I had left was shavings for the horse stall. I started this morning on another blank to make a 10-inch bowl but changed the grind on the Carter and son gouge to a 40/40 platform grind. Well to my surprise I could actually make a cut with it. I got all the bark off, made it round, and got some shape to it. I'll shape it better, I hope, in the morning and now my question. I have a set of 2-inch and 4-inch dovetail jaws. Which size should I use and should I use a tenon or recess? It is green and I ask so I can chuck it up again after it drys. This woodturning is addicting after I take care of the animals each morning I go straight to the shop. If you see something in my pictures that looks off please let me know.
My attempt...

 

[john lucas]

I prefer a tenon. I always reverse turn my bowls. With a tenon I'm not locked into any shape so if something happens while I'm turning it or simply want to change the shape I can. If you twice turn a green bowl the tenon or rebate will be out of round. It's harder to reshape a rebate. With a tenon you can use the tailstock to hold it while you reshape a tenon. I rough out all.of my bowls between centers so there is always a center mark on the tenon which makes it easy return the tenon.

 

[Dave Bunge]

I also prefer tenons, but can't honestly say that I ever gave recesses a chance. I started with tenons, they worked well, so I stuck with them.

The main reason for my response is to suggest that you cover your partially turned bowl with a plastic bag. Otherwise there's a good chance it will be cracked by morning.

Dave

 

[Richard Coers]

Your cutting station is nice, but I'd do some back damage lifting a lot of my log sections that high. My knees are better than my back, so I basically kneel to do the cutting. You'll understand when you put that Laguna to the test!

 

[hockenbery]

I prefer a tenon most of the time.
On a piece that size I would use a 2.5” tenon and #2 jaws which close to a little under 2”.
The 2.5” tenon will warp to oval but can be returned round at 2” or more so the chuck will grip it.

There is a thread that has my process and 2 videos form of demo in which
I turn a green bowl for drying and turn a dry bowl to finish..
http://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/working-with-green-wood.11626/

 

[Curt Fuller]

About the only time I use a recess is if the wood is already too thin for a tenon. And even then if I'm not in a hurry, I'll still use a glue block instead of a recess. In the right circumstances a recess is a good way to hold the wood. But in my opinion a tenon is a better method.

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... and now my question. I have a set of 2-inch and 4-inch dovetail jaws. Which size should I use and should I use a tenon or recess? It is green and I ask so I can chuck it up again after it drys. This woodturning is addicting after I take care of the animals each morning I go straight to the shop. If you see something in my pictures that looks off please let me know.
My attempt...

View attachment 28702

I would use the smaller jaws just because it would allow me to get closer to the bottom when refining the curve. I see something in the third picture that looks like a potential problem ... it looks like the pith is running through the wood near the rim. If that is the case I would turn turn that part away as soon as possible because cracks often begin at the pith and radiate outwards from there.

 

[John Rander]

Ron, I'm a fairly new turner, but I learned the hard way about recess versus tenon when I tried to re-turn bowls that I had rough turned last summer. When they become oval while drying, it is really much easier to re-turn from a tenon. Those oval recesses aren't worth much...
I would also agree with Bill, that does look like the pith near the rim. A shallower bowl can also be quite nice.

 

[Odie]

Your cutting station is nice, but I'd do some back damage lifting a lot of my log sections that high. My knees are better than my back, so I basically kneel to do the cutting. You'll understand when you put that Laguna to the test!

I was thinking the same thing......that cutting station is very nicely thought out.

Maybe something like this might be of interest:

 

[Odie]

I've been posting in the getting started forum so you guys know I'm new and appreciate all the help I got there

You know what I like about the newbies in the getting started forum?.......fresh thinking abounds! Thinking that isn't limited by the "herd think" that prevails with most established turners. They are the "diamonds in the rough", but you have to spend a little effort on just how to appreciate the input they can offer sometimes! I've gotten great inspiration, which led me down the path to new ideas........from the newbies.

-----odie-----

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

I prefer a tenon on a bowl or vessel unless the wood grain is really prone to splitting along the grain.
Recess's are good for platters and thinner pieces.
I have found that when turning a bowl that I can get a better shape with a tenon and then reversing and finishing the foot.
A recess can blow out if a combination of a catch and not enough material exists around the recess.
A tenon can be re-turned but a recess may not offer the same flexibility.

 

[robo hippy]

I prefer the recess, which is my finished bottom. I do turn once to final thickness and let them dry and warp. Only time I won't use a recess is when turning end grain because it can split the end grain. One note on your piece, that looks like a little bit of bark on the bottom. For either grip to work, you can't be gripping on soft bark As for chuck jaws, as tall as that piece is, the 2 inch jaws in a recess would be a bit minimal. You could get away with it, but one small catch, and it might fly away.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHkkws9lWA


robo hippy

 

[Daniel Warren]

I prefer the recess, which is my finished bottom. I do turn once to final thickness and let them dry and warp. Only time I won't use a recess is when turning end grain because it can split the end grain. One note on your piece, that looks like a little bit of bark on the bottom. For either grip to work, you can't be gripping on soft bark As for chuck jaws, as tall as that piece is, the 2 inch jaws in a recess would be a bit minimal. You could get away with it, but one small catch, and it might fly away.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHkkws9lWA


robo hippy

How do you re-mount to sand and finish? I've been turning with a recess to final thickness and my oak bowls in particular move quite a bit and it seems re-mounting for sanding will be a challenge.

 

[Russell Nugent]

I'm no expert, only been turning a year. I use tenons on all my green bowls, unless I'm doing a finish to warp thin platter .

One lesson I have learned is if you're going to leave a blank on the lathe to finish tomorrow spray it with water and wrap it up in a plastic bag or saran wrap. I had one that split just about in 2 after I left it over night till after work the next day.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There are times when a recess works better then a tenon, it depends on the item being turned. When I turn plates and platters I like to use a recess and finish one side before reversing the item and then proceed to turning and sanding the other side.

 

[Ron Vasser]

I prefer a tenon.

Thank you, John.

I also prefer tenons, but can't honestly say that I ever gave recesses a chance. I started with tenons, they worked well, so I stuck with them.
The main reason for my response is to suggest that you cover your partially turned bowl with a plastic bag. Otherwise there's a good chance it will be cracked by morning.

Thank you, Dave. I had farm work most of the day and got back to the shop late today. I guess I got lucky, and this GA humidity, it's still in one piece.

Your cutting station is nice, but I'd do some back damage lifting a lot of my log sections that high. My knees are better than my back, so I basically kneel to do the cutting. You'll understand when you put that Laguna to the test!

Thanks. I know about the back thing as I've had three fusions and a total shoulder replacement, but I have a tractor with a bucket and a lift over my lathe.

would use the smaller jaws just because it would allow me to get closer to the bottom when refining the curve. I see something in the third picture that looks like a potential problem ... it looks like the pith is running through the wood near the rim. If that is the case I would turn turn that part away as soon as possible because cracks often begin at the pith and radiate outwards from there.

Thanks, Bill, the face of the blank was so straight I decided to practice turning it away.

I was thinking the same thing......that cutting station is very nicely thought out.
Maybe something like this might be of interest:

Thanks, Odie, I've got it covered.

I prefer a tenon on a bowl or vessel unless the wood grain is really prone to splitting along the grain.
Recess's are good for platters and thinner pieces.

Thank you, Mark.

I prefer the recess, which is my finished bottom

Thank you, Robo.

I'm no expert, only been turning a year. I use tenons on all my green bowls, unless I'm doing a finish to warp thin platter .

Thanks, Russell, I guess I got lucky, it was still in one piece.

There are times when a recess works better then a tenon, it depends on the item being turned. When I turn plates and platters I like to use a recess and finish one side before reversing the item and then proceed to turning and sanding the other side.

Thank you. Mike.

I really appreciate all you folks taking the time to reply. I've done a lot of research but I know some of you guys have been doing this a long time and experience is hard to beat.
I'll bore you guys one more time with my first rough turned green bowl. It's in a bag drying, shops cleaned up and I'm ready to start another one in the morning!

 

[Dennis Weiner]

I prefer holding the wood with a dovetailed tenon rather than testing the strength of the wood as it’s pressed outward using a recess. There are too many conditions to explain to new woodturners on using a safe recess. Generally tell the newbies there is less accident risk compressing the wood to hold it than expanding it.

 

[robo hippy]

How do you re-mount to sand and finish? I've been turning with a recess to final thickness and my oak bowls in particular move quite a bit and it seems re-mounting for sanding will be a challenge.

Dennis, I am pretty sure that is in my bowl sanding video. My most common recess is about 2 5/8 inch diameter. I have some extended jaws that close down to about 1 inch, and will open up plenty for the larger recess. You have to wiggle it around a bit to get a secure mount, but most of the time, the recess is an oval so you still get enough contact for sanding. I do power sand, and need lathe speeds down to 15rpm or so, which I had help in getting my Robust down that low. Other than that, you need a 2 or 4 position spindle lock and sand at very low speeds. I have an articulated arm rest that I use which allows the rest to hold my arm and the angle drill so I can spin the bowl by hand. That is another video, and it really helps.

robo hippy

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

It seems to me that the main reason one would use a recess instead of the usually safer tenon is that one is doing production work and wants to avoid spending the time required to remove the tenon and clean up the bottom.

 

[hockenbery]

One major issue with the recess
Is having to accomate a 3” diameter hole in the design. it works with some forms but takes
A tenon provides so many design options and
Usually a more secure hold

 

[Dean Center]

That's a very nicely shaped bowl Ron. Pretty good surface on it, too--it's very helpful to work for that even when it doesn't 'count' on a rough turned blank. Kudos to you.

The rule of thumb is that the thickness of a rough turned blank should be about 1/10 the diameter. I'm guessing that this blank has a wall a little thicker than that. It might take a wee bit longer to dry than if it was thinner, but it should work out fine in the end.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I always use a tenon.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I'm sure that I am a new turner in comparison to most that have responded, but the turner I learned the basics from uses recesses and that is what I've have the most success with.

I found out that I need to make sure, on smaller bowls, that the border around the recess is wide enough to have enough strength not to break out. So, I have invested in smaller jaws for smaller bowls.

The second thing I found out was that to watch which direction the grain is oriented in comparison to the jaws. I think I learned this from one of Reed's videos (?maybe). Orienting the grain so that the jaws are putting pressure on the grain evenly all around gives the best holding power. I'm not sure I'm explaining this well, but if 2 opposing jaws are pushing outward along the grain, the grain will either compress more on those 2 sides and/or even be more likely to break out more. Either means the bowl won't stay on the lathe.

I almost always have to put the bowls back on the lather to return because my bowls are finished after my wife inlays polymer clay in the pre-cut groove around the bowl. The bowl must be remounted, the clay sometimes leveled even with the bowl surface, the bowl/clay finish sanded and the bowls finished. Because most of my bowls need remounting I have gotten good at finding the right orientation of the bowl when remounting to balance it with little vibration and I have invested in cole jaws to allow holding the bowl by its rim when possible. The cole jaws also allow me to turn the recess off to make a flat bottom if I choose. (My wife prefers flat bottoms on the polymer clay inlaid bowls so I do that a lot on those bowls.)

I don't know if the recess is the best way to go, but I use it almost all the time in place of a tenon. If I were turning deeper hollow form vessels, I would guess I would need to use a tenon to start with at least.

If using a recess works better for you use it. If using a tenon works, use it. Obviously, if a turner with the skills of Reed Gray uses recesses, it must be OK.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

In one of Jimmy Clewes' videos, he is turning dry wood to make a bowl with a foot. He starts with a recess, then turns a "bead" around it, making the foot that the bowl will eventually sit on. In dealing with the issue of the pressure being put on the recess, he recommends making the recess twice the depth of the foot, so that the jaws are not just pushing out on the rather thin foot, but on the bowl as a whole.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

The other thing that seems to be really important about a recess (and maybe a tenon also) is that the sides of the recess match the shape of the jaws; meaning that the dovetail angles must be the same on the bowl and the jaws (or at least extremely close).

The diameter of the recess (probably tenon also) must be close to the minimum minimum diameter of the jaw set to maximize the amount of surface of the jaws that come in contact with the sides of the recess (or tenon).

I hope I am stating these correctly. This is what I learned from reading, classes, and, to some degree, direct experience.

 

[Mike Johnson]

If you know the limitations of your support system when turning you can use a multitude of methods for different projects, the big "if" is the experience and knowledge you have gained over the years "knowing" the "limitations" of each method employed. These different methods take years of practical experience turning various items knowing which method is the best to use for the project you are working on. If you are working on a one of a kind commissioned piece you might use the most secure method compared to turning a common item with readily available wood. Some projects only provide one chance to get it right when you are working with a hard to source billet of wood. Some of the wood billets I have ordered over the years has taken several months to ship and then another several months or several years of effort to dry the wood to usable moisture content.

 

[Odie]

I use a tenon gripped by a chuck on bowls during roughing and seasoning process. After stabilization, a waste block is glued in place, and the exterior and interior is final turned while mounted on a faceplate. The tenon eventually becomes the foot, after the waste block is parted away. There is very little wasted wood with this method.

-----odie-----

 

[Odie]

An article of interest:

https://turnawoodbowl.com/wood-bowl-mortise-or-tenon-which-is-best/

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly, great illustration of the one size fits all commitment when using a recess.

The recess is made from air
The tenon is made from wood wood can be part of the finished bowl.
Also my tenons almost always have a center point in the middle to make centering easy when reverse chucking.

The tenon illustration shows wasting at least a wall thickness of wood to make it look equivalent to using the recess which needs to be about where it is for the bottom thickness.

Recess illustration commit s to having a 3.5”+ foot with a 3” concave in it or carved feet out at 3-4 “
Tenon illustration shows you could easily make a 1” foot or no foot.

Also consider if the tenon or recess are made on a 1/2 round log.
You can get a bigger hemispherical with a tenon.

 

[Bill Boehme]

The other thing that seems to be really important about a recess (and maybe a tenon also) is that the sides of the recess match the shape of the jaws; meaning that the dovetail angles must be the same on the bowl and the jaws (or at least extremely close).

The diameter of the recess (probably tenon also) must be close to the minimum minimum diameter of the jaw set to maximize the amount of surface of the jaws that come in contact with the sides of the recess (or tenon).

I hope I am stating these correctly. This is what I learned from reading, classes, and, to some degree, direct experience.

It's called the perfect circle diameter and it occurs when the gap between the jaws on a Vicmarc chuck is approximately 3 mm or slightly less than ⅛ inch ... the jaws are machined as a single piece and then cut into four "slices of pie" and the gap is the kerf width. The advantage of dovetail jaws making full contact with a tenon or recess also points out the fact that any diameter other than the perfect circle tenon or recess will result in significantly reduced contact area. If you are doing something that requires removing and reinstalling the turning on the chuck then the perfect circle diameter is an important consideration for alignment repeatability.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Kelly, great illustration of the one size fits all commitment when using a recess.

The recess is made from air
The tenon is made from wood wood can be part of the finished bowl.
Also my tenons almost always have a center point in the middle to make centering easy when reverse chucking.

Not sure if I understand your point. I'm probably not as experienced as you are at turning, but I use tenons as part of many of my finished bowls. In fact, when I started turning, that's all I did. I am starting to incorporate some other "decorations" within the recess, but, without those, it serves as the base of the bowl. Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

 

[hockenbery]

Not sure if I understand your point. I'm probably not as experienced as you are at turning, but I use tenons as part of many of my finished bowls. In fact, when I started turning, that's all I did. I am starting to incorporate some other "decorations" within the recess, but, without those, it serves as the base of the bowl. Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

I meant to say the tenon or part of it can be used in the foot.
The recess is air so that wood is gone. What you have is a hole to use in your design.
Part of all of the tenon can be turned away.

Recesses really limit the foot you can make.
The tenon has a lot of flexibility

I can easily put a 2”, 1”, or 1/2” foot on a bowl with a 2” tenon
A small foot reduce or eliminates the utility of a bowl but the looks can be fantastic.

 

[Ron Vasser]

I want to thank everyone that replied and post links!
I had my first REAL CATCH today on the inside of a bowl I just started to hollow. I know what caused it and won't do that again. It caused the bowl to lose location on one side of the chuck and wobbled quite a bit at 900 RPMs. I loosened the chuck reset the bowl and it was back on center. The dovetail tenon did a good job on green maple.

That's a very nicely shaped bowl Ron. Pretty good surface on it, too--it's very helpful to work for that even when it doesn't 'count'. Kudos to you.

Thank you, Dean!

 

[Odie]

I use a tenon gripped by a chuck on bowls during roughing and seasoning process. After stabilization, a waste block is glued in place, and the exterior and interior is final turned while mounted on a faceplate. The tenon eventually becomes the foot, after the waste block is parted away. There is very little wasted wood with this method.

-----odie-----

I took some photos today to show my particular process. This isn't to suggest that others should follow my lead......this is just for clarity in showing my own process. I'm aware that others are following their own developed methods, but this is mine.....

Step #1.....rough using a tenon and Stronghold chuck, anchorsealed when needed, ready to start the seasoning process:

Step #2.....After seasoning, or moisture stabilization is completed, attach waste block. (I use Titebond III):

Step #3.....Attach screw center faceplate to waste block:

Step #4.....Seasoned roughed bowl is finish turned, both interior and exterior. Danish Oil Natural applied:

Step #5.....Bowl is parted away from waste block:

Step #6.....Foot is turned and Danish Oil Natural is applied, using Stronghold Jumbo Jaws. My larger bowls require my set of Mega Jumbo Jaws. Oddly enough, the Mega Jumbo Jaws can be used in the expand mode, and grip a smaller bowl than can the Jumbo Jaws!.....:

Step #7.....Bowl is ready to buff. I am currently using Beale 3-step method:

I am prohibited from using more photos, so my buffing station will be shown on a subsequent post.

-----odie-----

 

[Odie]

Buffing station. Homemade from my old lathe motor 1725rpm, 1 1/2hp Leeson. Overkill I know.....but I used what I had for this application! .....a 3/4hp, or 1hp 1725rpm motor would be about perfect for buffing with the Beale 3-step method, IMHO.....


-----odie-----

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I meant to say the tenon or part of it can be used in the foot.
The recess is air so that wood is gone. What you have is a hole to use in your design.
Part of all of the tenon can be turned away.

Recesses really limit the foot you can make.

Al this is only true if you let it be. By leaving a little more wood in the bottom you can do the same things with that recess as you can with the tenon in reference to the foot. It is just a matter of planning ahead. Now I do not usually do this but to say there are limits ...no. Limits only exist in you mind other than safety precautions. True not for beginners but that is not to say it cannot be done.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Even though I'm sure I'm less experienced than those who have indicated the tenon is the better way to I don't agree that it is limiting at all. To me, it depends on how you look at the design. The recess becomes part of the design and really, I don't believe it takes anymore wood to do a recess than it would doing a tenon. It's the same depth or thickness used off the bottom of the blank. It's really just a different look to me. I've done them both and I actually like the way the recess looks better, but I know that others don't. It just doesn't seem to make any difference to me which I use. I can make a good bowl either way or, as sometimes happens, I can screw it up either way.

 

[hockenbery]

Al this is only true if you let it be. By leaving a little more wood in the bottom you can do the same things with that recess as you can with the tenon in reference to the foot. It is just a matter of planning ahead. Now I do not usually do this but to say there are limits ...no. Limits only exist in you mind other than safety precautions. True not for beginners but that is not to say it cannot be done.

You are quite right.
You can turn all the wood surrounding the recess away “sort of turn a tenon” then shape the foot. This wastes a little more wood. My first chuck only did expansion.

I’m just saying the wood in the tenon can be part of the finished piece.

The air in the recess cannot be part of the finished piece.

 

[hockenbery]

Even though I'm sure I'm less experienced than those who have indicated the tenon is the better way to I don't agree that it is limiting at all. To me, it depends on how you look at the design. The recess becomes part of the design and really, I don't believe it takes anymore wood to do a recess than it would doing a tenon. It's the same depth or thickness used off the bottom of the blank. It's really just a different look to me. I've done them both and I actually like the way the recess looks better, but I know that others don't. It just doesn't seem to make any difference to me which I use. I can make a good bowl either way or, as sometimes happens, I can screw it up either way.

There is not absolute right or wrong. Each method has different attributes.
If you are getting good results then keep getting good results.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Al I always hear this about wasting wood , but here in Mississippi it grows on trees. It is like thinking how much wood goes in the fire just from cutting out the blank and the amount of waste around the tenon is infinitesimal unless you paid $200 for the blank.Even if you paid for it the waste is still there in blank prep.

And then there are those design changes which really waste a lot of wood. Not trying to be argumentative it is just the semantics of the situation.

Another point is 5 years ago I would not have defended using a recess but with experience I like it on larger pieces . It is still not my go to thing but I am beginning to see possibilities when you can use it and then the bottom is finished.