OvalAre you using a flat or oval skew?
wow! Good advice. I would have never thought turning it by hand could cut, but it does. I think I had the tool rest too far out and too low. Now I’m just skimming it from up higher on the piece. Compare the right side below to the former.Yup what others said - you're coming off the bevel and/or with a dull tool - skews need to be razor sharp and no pressure - let the edge cut at its own pace - if you have to apply ANY pressure to get it to cut, your skew is dull , and once you get one of those "waves" started, it's gonna continue even if you sharpen up - you'll have to back way off and pick up a smooth cut until you hit that "spot" then back up and cut again until the low spot of the wave is cut away. It helps to practice with a piece of relatively soft wood, turned to smooth round, and then shut off lathe - put tool on the rest (anchor) lightly rest bevel on the wood, and turn the wood by hand and gently lift handle (rolling edge into cut) until it starts to cut, and then you should be able to turn it by hand and make a nice long shaving as you rotate the wood and just *let the tool cut* without applying any pressure at all - when you get it "just right" the tool will almost naturally follow the wood as it peels off, continuing your shaving the whole length - at least that's how I finally managed to refine my tool control techniques... YMMV
My first ever successful, turning with a skew! Thanks to all!
wow! Good advice. I would have never thought turning it by hand could cut, but it does. I think I had the tool rest too far out and too low. Now I’m just skimming it from up higher on the piece. Compare the right side below to the former.
I’m sure that 5 minutes in person would move me a long way toward better use of a skew. Ironically, I’ve pretty much only turned bowls so far, so never figured out the skew. Even after watching many youtube videos, I still didn’t get it until the hand-turning tip. I do think I could have controlled a straight skew better than oval, but I’m not quite as afraid of it now…Gevan, looking good! Turning the lathe by hand is exactly how I teach the skew. Even if someone has never even seen a lathe before the skew is the first tool I put in their hands. I usually start with a blank of fairly soft wood like maple, 2” or so squares, at least 12” long, usually a bit longer. A skew at least 1” wide.
This whole process usually only takes 10-15 minutes, less for some people. Having started dozens of people with this method, I’ve never once had someone get a catch. (Knock on Bubinga)
- I first turn the practice piece round and smooth for them then turn the lathe off, hand them a fairly wide skew appropriate for the diameter.
- Show how to place the skew, the angle, position, how to hold with the hand and arm.
- Have them put the bevel on the wood then with me turning the lathe by hand, let them feel the wood with the edge and try to make a shaving, me watching and advising, correcting angle and position as needed.
- When they can make a reliable fine shaving, we talk about feet, legs, and arms and have them make spiral shavings down the blank.
- After a bit of that, I turn on the lathe and round the blank again so they have a smooth cylinder and don’t have to deal with a “bumpy” surface.
- More pealing practice until it feels natural to them.
- Then I put the lathe belt on the lowest speed pulley and turn it on at the minimum speed, By this time they are able to make reliable peeling cuts. While they practice I gradually sneak up the speed until they find them selves making good cuts at about 1/2 speed.
- Then I smooth the blank again and they practice at higher and higher speeds. I’m constantly watching the tool placement, foot, leg, and arms motions and correct as needed.
There is usually time to practice everything on a second practice blank. If they have a lathe at home I send some practice blanks from soft maple, cherry or something with them. If they don’t have a lathe, I invite them to come for more lessons. I’ve had a couple of people start from scratch who since acquired a lathe and turn often. Makes me feel useful!
- After a few planing passes, we go to the spindle gouge and learn to make coves. (Can be more difficult than the skew since it requires multiple coordinated motions, first from one side, then the other.) I demonstrate the motions while turning a cove, then turn the lathe off and describe and show the motions, then let them practice just the motions with the lathe off.
- With the lathe on again, they work on coves, starting small. Then beads, again with a spindle gouge.
- Once coves are conquered, or at least understood, we go back to the skew and work on shallow V cuts then deeper Vs. Then on to more coves and beads until the blank has shapes all the way down.
- THEN I finally demonstrate the roughing gouge and they make some squares round. I don’t start out with this for several reasons.
- If their first practice piece is not getting too thin, I’ll have them smooth it down and repeat with the planing, coves, and beads. Otherwise I grab a new turning square and they continue, as time allows. We may start on beads too.
Some things about the skew.
Some older, long-time turners are afraid of the skew after some bad experiences. I’ve heard otherwise excellent symposium demonstrators say the skew was only good for opening cans of finish, or occasionally as a negative rake scraper. I once had an older gentleman from our club come for a “remedial” skew lesson. I didn’t see him for several years after that since I dropped everything while I finished building my shop. When I finally started coming to club meetings again the guy jumped up from the back of the room and ran up and said “I want to shake your hand!” He said after that one lesson he started practicing and using the skew a lot. Said it was now one of his favorite tools. Made me smile!
- One with the included angle a little larger than usual is a bit more “forgiving” for a beginner.
- The straight edge is preferred, although I have used skews with a curved edge.
- We avoid using a narrow (say 1/2”) skew on larger diameter blanks since the long point is so close to the wood - better for starting is a 1” or 1-1/4” skew.
- Oval or flat skew doesn’t seem to matter (except when time to learn to sharpen!)
- Of utmost importance: the tools must be sharp, sharp, sharp, shaving sharp!
Note that I’ve had very experienced instructors tell me I couldn’t start beginners like that. I disagree.
I’ve turned into a true believer for what several expert turners have told me, in books and a couple in person: If you learn spindle turning 1st it will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn anything. (I can provide references.) If you start with bowls, the path can be different. I know some bowl turners who say they aren’t interested in turning spindles - a few might not be able to turn a thin spindle if they wanted.
JKJ
I certainly was tense!The best advice I was given was to relax your hands. When you expect something bad is going to happen, you tense up. Relaxing makes that ripple go away.
I can see now how an oval skew makes it very hard to control the “twist” of the tool against the wood. Thanks.Gevan, you've obviously figured something very important out. Great work!
One other suggestion is to check your angle, as a great many early users have too blunt a tool.
There is a great range of opinion on the angle a skew should be sharpened. Pointier makes for smoother surfaces, but catches come more easily. Blunter makes for less excitement, with the loss of some of what the skew is best at. One easy, reasonable angle is for the width of the bevel (from tool edge to flat of the tool) to be roughly 1 1/2 times the thickness of the tool. (And Oval Skews are evil, IMHO)
I actually like it too, but it is hard to replicate and rife with “catches”. Very tense turning. In hindsight, if you want to try, I’d say try lowering the tool rest and attacking lower on the workpiece, quite a bit of tool pressure and move right along. Also seems much more readily done on green wood. FWIW, it also seems that moderately dense, uniform grain hardwoods do it (hornbeam, eucalyptus).I like that texture! In a video Johatman did something similar with a gouge by first intentionally denting the wood. I tried to replicate it with poor results.
You are correct - it was in the first tool set I bought. I’m visiting the woodworking store todayThe fulcrum changes on an oval skew which increases the chance of a catch. It does not on a flat skew. I’m guessing the oval skew is part of a set. If you don’t have a flat skew, let that be your next tool purchase.
The fulcrum changes on an oval skew which increases the chance of a catch. It does not on a flat skew. I’m guessing the oval skew is part of a set. If you don’t have a flat skew, let that be your next tool purchase.
Are you referring to designs like Robert Sorby’s? https://robert-sorby.co.uk/product/oval-skew-chisel-809/
I had that one and didn’t like it.
I like my ... oval skews. Tormek revised the fixture so it no longer works as well with the diamond parting tool.
Follow-up question. I presumed that one factor with “catches” was that I was turning too slow (say, 800 rpm for 2” spindle), but given the catches was fearful of goinghigher. Since now I see that it can cut even with hand turning, maybe LOWER RPM is a way to learn the precise control? Thoughts?
In a nutshell, "Catches" happen when you come off the bevel (which keeps the edge from following grain) for the most part so the trick is learning to keep the bevel nice and flat just barely "kissing" the wood - Basically the bevel rides on the wood, but the wood doesn't know it. Part of achieving that is learning to lightly grip the tool (instead of a death grip and clamping other hand down on the tool (to hold it in place in the rest) - both cause you to have to put more effort into the cut than is needed.) Once you get that mastered, the rest is a matter of learning how to "steer" (to create your beads, coves and tapers) and every part of it is so much easier when tool is properly sharp (and finding the best position to have your cutting edge making contact - Some like it a little above "9 o'clock", while others may like to have their skew cutting almost near the top (11 o'clock) of the spindle - tool rest height controls that to a large extent - having it "high" makes it easier for straight across but when you are doing deep coves , v-cuts or making spin tops , you end up hunching your shoulder way up in order to steer the cutting edge closer to center.. which is where I most often got "catches" or run-outs because that unnatural hunching was also changing my stance and bevel contact. So yeah lower speed can be helpful at learning mastery as it slows you down until your body gains "muscle memory" (Even the pros will often spend some time practicing with the skew for a little while before starting their project, if they have been away from it for even a little while, but once learned that muscle memory comes back fairly quickly)I actually like it too, but it is hard to replicate and rife with “catches”. Very tense turning. In hindsight, if you want to try, I’d say try lowering the tool rest and attacking lower on the workpiece, quite a bit of tool pressure and move right along. Also seems much more readily done on green wood. FWIW, it also seems that moderately dense, uniform grain hardwoods do it (hornbeam, eucalyptus).
The fulcrum changes on an oval skew which increases the chance of a catch. It does not on a flat skew. I’m guessing the oval skew is part of a set. If you don’t have a flat skew, let that be your next tool purchase.
Are you referring to designs like Robert Sorby’s? https://robert-sorby.co.uk/product/oval-skew-chisel-809/
I had that one and didn’t like it.
I like my ... oval skews. Tormek revised the fixture so it no longer works as well with the diamond parting tool.
Follow-up question. I presumed that one factor with “catches” was that I was turning too slow (say, 800 rpm for 2” spindle), but given the catches was fearful of goinghigher. Since now I see that it can cut even with hand turning, maybe LOWER RPM is a way to learn the precise control? Thoughts?
I bravely tackled a 4” chunk of Myrtle. After rounding it up, I used my skew at lowest speed my lathe would turn….worked great! No catches and I am gaining confidence. Sure glad I asked for help on this forum! Thanks to all.
Thanks. I watched a lot of videos- they all made it seem easy, but I could not get it. I’ll watch these - maybe they ill make more sense to me now.Oh, @Gevan Marrs, I don't know whether you watch turning videos (I don't watch many) but I noticed this one describing several edge shapes. Might be interesting. Notice he often planes with the long point down. I think it's helpful to practice both ways.
View: https://youtu.be/yhuEVVSkDtE?si=f6RhJG6L09Snb1Pj
BTW, Brian Havens also has a video on the controversial subject of skew cross sections: rectangular, oval, and [gasp] round! (which I quite like, especially in smaller sizes like 1/4" and 1/2".
View: https://youtu.be/ARCH_J7ypPk?si=DofGY3GehjB9XdNn
And if hungry for more info, there are a couple of great books I highly recommend.
JKJ
I (now) agree that my problem was “moving off the bevel”. Turning the lathe by hand helped me understand how to shave without fear of catching. This caused me to move much higher on the workpiece than I was previously, given my holding stance. Your point 1. above describes perfectly what was happening with my previous catches. I’m not sure how I missed that for so long.One thing I've learned the hard way is that larger spindles need a higher tool rest. When I start our high schoolers, I tell them they need to be working on the top half of the wood and tool rest AT the centerline , but with different sized turners, experience and diameters over 1.5-2", adjustments are needed and appropriate.
You should turn at the speed at which you feel comfortable, but personally, I don't think slowing it down has been the key to your success. YOU are approaching it with more confidence, softer hands, and a better idea of what you should be doing. You've learned improved skills. Kudos.
Adding to Brian's comments about catches, with a skew they come from 2 things. 1. You contact the wood with the edge when the bevel is not applied (gently) to the wood. The rule of thumb with spindle turning is ABC: Anchor, BEVEL, then Cut. The skew will not tolerate anything else. It's a very tough teacher. 2. You contact the wood with the long point directly when you aren't intending to. Certainly there are skew cuts with the long point, but if you are doing a cut where it's not supposed to be involved, and it contacts the wood, it'll be a catch. With a planing/shearing cut (short point down, edge at 45 degrees to the centerline, bevel on the wood), I recommend you try to cut with the lowest 1/4 to 1/3 of the edge, to avoid that sneaky long point slipping down into the danger zone.
Thanks. I watched a lot of videos- they all made it seem easy, but I could not get it. I’ll watch these - maybe they ill make more sense to me now.
Can some one explain a "planing" cut with the skew? Maybe I am too literal in my interpretation, but I will always think of a plane as a flat surface, and with a skew, to me, that means roughing down to a cylinder, and beads and coves are some thing else....
robo hippy