Spindle noise on PM2014

[Michael Edelman]

I’m having a problem with my Powermatic 2014 that I’m hoping one or more of you can help me zero in on. I’ve seen posts with similar problems on other lathes, but not on mine.

I was doing some spindle turning, and had just tightened the tailpiece. I turned the lathe on and heard a “tick tick tick” sound, so I turned it off and looked inside the headstock. The sensor collar was wobbling, so I loosened the set screws, straightened it out, checked for interference with the sensor, and started it again. Sound was still there.

I disconnected the belt and spun the spindle by hand to make sure the sound wasn’t from the motor. It was definitely in the spindle, once per revolution. Next I checked to make sure it wasn’t interference between the spindle pulley and the case or index pin.

i found a post here regarding a similar problem with a Jet that turned out to be a split collar that was rubbing on the case. There’s a stop collar inside the headstock that I would have to remove the headstock and place it on the floor (difficult with a bad back) in order to access from below, and that’s my next step unless someone has another idea.

Also- is there an actual service manual for this machine? It’s under warranty, but if there’s an easy fix that didn’t require me hauling it to my dealer, that would obviously be preferable.

 

[Michael Edelman]

Update: The split collar is not accessible from below, but I managed to stick a finger in far enough to find that it was loose. Problem diagnosed. It looks like I’d have to do a fair amount of disassembly, and I don’t know how the collar should be adjusted or located, so it may go to my dealer after all. We’ll see.

 

[Michael Edelman]

My dealer (Glen Wing Tools of Birmingham, MI) said he’d never worked on one, but that I should bring it in “and we’ll figure it out.” Gotta love that kind of honesty. Great dealer, BYW. They mainly sell to the trade (they’re a big Festool dealer), but they also sell to hobbyists and do consignment sales of all sorts of woodworking equipment.

 

[Gerry Patton]

I had what sounds like the same situation. I plated ariubd with it trying to figure it out until it stopped on it's own. I don't know anywhere I could have taken it anyway.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I plated ariubd with it

@Gerry Patton my Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring says that you "played around" with it.

 

[Michael Edelman]

I called Powermatic this morning and spoke with a tech while he checked the drawings and looked at a machine and tried to figure it out. He finally said he’d have to work on it, and call me back later. Still waiting on that.

Luckily Ric Williams had planned to visit this afternoon (we had some chuck swapping to arrange) and we figured it out, after around two and a half hours and a lot of head scratching. I’d already removed the motor, and Ric figured out that if he removed the plastic box that supports the speed sensor, he could get his hand under the shaft, align the spindle lock collar, and tighten the set screw.

It may also be that you could do it even more simply by removing the spindle lock lever and inserting an Allen wrench through the mounting hole, but we’re not sure of that.

 

[Al Chavez]

Michael,
I've been following this thread. Congratulations on you and Ric figuring it out.
Can you please update this thread when the Powermatic tech calls you back with his solution.
I've got a PM2014 and hope I never have to deal with an issue like that but I like the possible spindlelock and allen wrench solution and I'm very curious what the tech has to say.
Thanks
Al

I called Powermatic this morning and spoke with a tech while he checked the drawings and looked at a machine and tried to figure it out. He finally said he’d have to work on it, and call me back later. Still waiting on that.

 

[Michael Edelman]

[…]
Can you please update this thread when the Powermatic tech calls you back with his solution.
I've got a PM2014 and hope I never have to deal with an issue like that…

Absolutely. It’s a great little lathe, isn’t it?

 

[Al Chavez]

Perfect size for me and I got the bed extension but haven't used it yet.
I love it!

 

[Ric Williams]

I still think the ticking noise was coming from that family of chipmunks we chased out of the headstock. And the shotgun was uncalled for. They were long gone by then. They'll be more comfortable in the bandsaw anyway.

 

[Richard Coers]

That's been a Powermatic issue for years and years. Discussed here 8 years ago. https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/ticking-sound-from-pm3520b.10544/

 

[Michael Edelman]

That's been a Powermatic issue for years and years. Discussed here 8 years ago. https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/ticking-sound-from-pm3520b.10544/

That old post was in fact what led me to the source of the problem.

 

[Michael Edelman]

I still think the ticking noise was coming from that family of chipmunks we chased out of the headstock. And the shotgun was uncalled for. They were long gone by then. They'll be more comfortable in the bandsaw anyway.

You’re always saying it’s chipmunks, or squirrels, or that using firearms or explosives was “uncalled for.” But we fixed that noise in your dishwasher, didn’t we?

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I had noise and vibration on a different lathe one time. Ended up I tightened the belt too tight. Loosened the belt a little and it was smooth and quiet again.

 

[Ric Williams]

You’re always saying it’s chipmunks, or squirrels, or that using firearms or explosives was “uncalled for.” But we fixed that noise in your dishwasher, didn’t we?

First of all, it was just a woodchuck, and it was just trying to escape, not attack you. Secondly, that wasn't really a "controlled charge", was it? And sure, the dishwasher didn't make that noise anymore. The last noise it made was when it landed in the basement!!!

 

[Michael Edelman]

First of all, it was just a woodchuck, and it was just trying to escape, not attack you. Secondly, that wasn't really a "controlled charge", was it? And sure, the dishwasher didn't make that noise anymore. The last noise it made was when it landed in the basement!!!

Only part of it landed in the basement, and your neighbors couldn’t prove the other bits came from your house.

 

[Gerry Patton]

I'm guessing the Powermatic tech didn't respond because there is no easy fix to this problem. Would that be correct? What is the consequence of leaving it unresolved. Ticking wouldn't be noticed unless you heard it when it started. It has all but gone away but I can feel the piece still needs the set screw tightened.

 

[Michael Edelman]

I'm guessing the Powermatic tech didn't respond because there is no easy fix to this problem.

The machine has been out for almost two years, so someone at Powermatic should know how to tighten the screw on the collar. Ric and I found one solution and a poster on a pen turning forum found another. Either the tech just dropped the ball on this one, or he lost my phone number. I’ll probably send them an email next week.

 

[Ric Williams]

The machine has been out for almost two years, so someone at Powermatic should know how to tighten the screw on the collar. Ric and I found one solution and a poster on a pen turning forum found another. Either the tech just dropped the ball on this one, or he lost my phone number. I’ll probably send them an email next week.

I still think putting it back on with JB Weld is going to come back to bite you later. Sure, it won't come loose again, but what if you need it to?

 

[Michael Edelman]

I still think putting it back on with JB Weld is going to come back to bite you later. Sure, it won't come loose again, but what if you need it to?

I would argue that it was a better solution than your idea of filling the headstock with wood chips and STP to quiet it.

 

[Ric Williams]

I would argue that it was a better solution than your idea of filling the headstock with wood chips and STP to quiet

That's only for belt noise.

 

[Michael Edelman]

That's only for belt noise.

Hah. Can’t fool me. I know that Beltnoise is the brightest star in the constellation Orion.

 

[Dave Landers]

I would argue that it was a better solution than your idea of filling the headstock with wood chips and STP to quiet it.

My go-to noise solution is to turn up the music

 

[Michael Edelman]

I called Powermatic again the other day and got a quick callback from a tech. He said he had to talk to some other techs and would call me back… and did. He said I could probably remove the spindle lock by loosening the nut inside with a pair of bent needle nose pliers, but I’m doubtful about that. He said at one point that it would have been a good idea for Powermatic to have put a hole in the casting in line with the spindle, like the accessory holes located further back on the headstock. I agreed.

About an hour ago I cautiously drilled a small hole in line with the spindle and the spindle lock lever and managed to get almost a perfectly straight shot to the set screw. A tiny twist with a 2mm hex key and no more clicking noise.

 

[Gerry Patton]

Michael< if you would be so kind as to post a picture of your fix it would be worth a thousand words and so much appreciated.

Thanks,

Gerry

 

[Michael Edelman]

Michael< if you would be so kind as to post a picture of your fix it would be worth a thousand words and so much appreciated.

Thanks,

Gerry

Not much to it, really. Remove the rubber cover and drill a small hole in line with the spindle axis and the shaft lock lever. There’s a mold line in the casting in line with the spindle that can be used to locate the axis. Replacing the rubber cover will keep dust and dirt out.

Start with a small drill and enlarge the hole a bit (maybe a 16th) at a time. You can drill most cast iron without lube, I’m told, but i used a few drops of a mineral oil based lubricant which had the side benefit of holding the metal cuttings while I drilled. I also placed a magnet next to the hole. I found that I needed a fresh drill bit with a very sharp point to start the hole. Enlarging it was easier.

i placed a small light made by my friend Ric Williams inside the headstock to illuminate the spindle lock collar- you can see the effect in the photo in my previous post.

 

[Gerry Patton]

Michael, thanks a lot for this. Very helpful. Why didn't Powermatic think of this simple fix? Well done.

 

[Michael Edelman]

Michael, thanks a lot for this. Very helpful. Why didn't Powermatic think of this simple fix? Well done.

They did, in a way. The tech said there should be a hole there. I don’t think they want to tell customers to start drilling holes in their machinery. I do wonder how they assemble the machine.

With all the machines they’ve sold I can’t be the first to have had this problem. Maybe they‘ll do a production modification at some point.

 

[Tim Kelly]

I had this very same problem on my 2014 after 3 days of hard use. I ended up fixing it by loosening the hall effect collar and black sensor box, moving things around, and squeezing my hands in there with an allen wrench. I took the old set screw out and saw that it had a *very small* amount of blue loc-tite on it. I gave it a healthier dose, screwed it back down, and put everything back. Works well to this day.

However, I wish I would have thought about just drilling an access hole. I guess I wasn't even thinking about that on a 3-day old machine... lesson learned!

 

[John McAlevey]

Was your spindle lock working before you did the surgery? And is there a slotted key underneath the set screw?

 

[Michael Edelman]

Was your spindle lock working before you did the surgery? And is there a slotted key underneath the set screw?

Working but loose. This is the second time it’s happened, and the first time I pulled the motor and did what Tim describes above.

 

[Tim Kelly]

Mine was also working but loose. There is a Woodruff key to key the locking collar to the spindle. There is enough clearance in there to where the collar could move side to side, but I don't know if it would be enough to fall off the key. Interestingly, the big aluminum donut that is the encoder collar for the speed (and indexing I would imagine) was not keyed, and had major runout from the factory. It is held on with 3 set screws, and I was able to lessen the runout when I re-tightened it. Not sure if it really matters, but before loosening, I took a sharpie and struck an indexing mark against the donut and spindle shaft so it would line up properly and not effect the indexing readout.

 

[John McAlevey]

Michael- could you send the measurement from the edge of the headstock casting to the centerline of the hole you drilled. Fractions of an inch or millimeters would work for me. What diameter hole did you end up with? I'm thinking a wood or cork plug to fill the hole after the surgery. Thanks, John

 

[Michael Edelman]

Michael- could you send the measurement from the edge of the headstock casting to the centerline of the hole you drilled. Fractions of an inch or millimeters would work for me. What diameter hole did you end up with? I'm thinking a wood or cork plug to fill the hole after the surgery. Thanks, John

The hole is 7/32” in diameter. You could get away with smaller if your alignment was good.

Using the grooves cut in the headstock for the rubber mat for reference, the hole is centered at 33mm below the upper groove, and 12mm to the left of the vertical groove. But I would not rely on those measurements, as I don’t know what the manufacturing tolerances are, or if the dimensions are different between our machines.

Instead, I recommend that you take your measurements from your machine. Use the casting line in the headstock to align with the spindle, and the distance between the center of the spindle locking lever and the edge of the headstock for your horizontal offset. The rightmost accessory mounting screw hole on my lathe appears to be in line with the spindle locking lever, and if it is on yours, you can use it to find the offset from the rubber mat groove as well.

I would not use any sort of plug in the drilled hole, as there’s the chance that it could fall into the headstock. The rubber mat provides plenty of protection, and is easily removable for future access.

 

[John McAlevey]

I drilled an access hole to spindle. The collar is missing its set screw and I think the Woodruff Key.
I am inclined to let it go for now and do some turning even though part of me hates doing that.
It almost takes watchmaker's skills to get in there and fiddle around with it. Thanks for all the drilling information it was spot on.

 

[Michael Edelman]

I drilled an access hole to spindle. The collar is missing its set screw and I think the Woodruff Key.
I am inclined to let it go for now and do some turning even though part of me hates doing that.
It almost takes watchmaker's skills to get in there and fiddle around with it. Thanks for all the drilling information it was spot on.

It’s very difficult to remove a chuck or faceplate without the shaft lock.

If the spindle doesn’t lock, either the key is missing or the collar has slid over to where the lock can’t reach it. If the screw is there you’ll be able to see it through the hole you drilled if you get some light in there.

if the screw isn’t in the collar or the key isn’t on the shaft, they’re underneath, lying on the bottom of the housing. If you remove the four screws that hold the plastic box inside the housing, you can move it over and reach inside with your hand or a tool. You may have to move the motor to get your hand in there.

It’s not all that difficult. After all, Ric and I managed to do it.

 

[Gerry Patton]

Michael, thanks for all your help and for figuring out the fix to start with. I accomplished the task last night and it's working as it should again. Much appreciated.

 

[Michael Edelman]

Happy to help.

 

[John McAlevey]

Today I talked to a Powermatic tech person. He tried to help but had no solution to my problem which is now reinstalling the key under the collar. I've removed the black box and the motor. I've thought about enlarging the hole I drilled on the top but haven't reached a decision on that one. There is just no room to get ones fingers in to replace the key.

 

[John Walls]

I wonder how that is installed at the factory?