Standard ground gouges vs side ground gouges.........or, old geezers vs the new kid!

[odie]

A question.....

Can you give me an example of a cleanly cut surface and/or shape, requiring minimal sanding, where a standard ground gouge isn't capable of producing an equivalent, or better surface quality than a side-ground gouge? I would prefer to see photos, or at least from personal experience......just trying to eliminate those who will parrot the usual ingrained information that is passed around by the "herd", or "group think".

(Some newer turners will need a clarification: A standard ground gouge is that which revolves around the central axis of the tool shaft (using the Wolverine V-arm) while it's being ground. The side grind is what the Vari-grind Wolverine jig is used for. The Wolverine is what I use, so I'm using it as an example. I'm aware that other grinding jigs, and free-form methods will accomplish the same tasks.)

The reason I ask, is for the last year, I have gone back to using the standard ground gouge exclusively. All my Ellsworth gouges are being slowly converted to standard grind gouges.....or, are being neglected. I have yet to find any cut done with a standard ground gouge, that isn't as good, or better than the side ground gouges can do......and, there definitely are a few specific cases where the standard ground gouge is better! In this, and many other things, I've been going back to my roots as a turner......and, I've been finding that the old masters didn't need anything but their basic "old fashioned" turning tools to do incredible things! (.....and by "incredible", I'm not speaking about embellishments!.......just clean well executed cuts that result in appealing aesthetic simplicity, with minimal sanding.) In my very humble opinion (!), it's the heart and soul that creates, rather than any "perceived" technical advantages currently in vogue.

l> oegvssg,ewt,cks

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Two finish cuts that give a cleaner surface than the traditional grind are the

1. The pull cut where the 25-30 degree bevel of the wing cuts the wood at 45 degrees or higher.
This is especially valuable on an interrupted cut such as turning multi center pieces or natural edge bowls.
I turn some 3 sided pieces and the pull cut with the Ellsworth or side ground gouge lets me cut from the end of the spindle with no tear out.
On the natural edge bowls the pull cut does a super job on the interrupted cut. Usually cuts the bark cleanly too

2. Shear cut on the front of the wing with the flute up for the inside of bowls or to cut the rim of a natural edge bowl or hollow form.

These are both advanced cuts. Most intermediate turners can do the pull cut.
Only advanced turners should attempt the shear cut. I reccomend that people learn this cut in a hands on from someone who uses it well.


I show these cuts in the demo on turning natural edge bowls from a crotch. You can see the finish the gouge leaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug


Of course for roughing the side ground gouge is at least a 1/3 faster than a traditional gouge and probably more like twice as fast.

That said. Good results can be achieved with a traditional gouge on cut rim bowls.

Al

 

[odie]

Two finish cuts that give a cleaner surface than the traditional grind are the

1. The pull cut where the 25-30 degree bevel of the wing cuts the wood at 45 degrees or higher.
This is especially valuable on an interrupted cut such as turning multi center pieces or natural edge bowls.
I turn some 3 sided pieces and the pull cut with the Ellsworth or side ground gouge lets me cut from the end of the spindle with no tear out.
On the natural edge bowls the pull cut does a super job on the interrupted cut. Usually cuts the bark cleanly too

2. Shear cut on the front of the wing with the flute up for the inside of bowls or to cut the rim of a natural edge bowl or hollow form.

These are both advanced cuts. Most intermediate turners can do the pull cut.
Only advanced turners should attempt the shear cut. I reccomend that people learn this cut in a hands on from someone who uses it well.


I show these cuts in the demo on turning natural edge bowls from a crotch. You can see the finish the gouge leaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug


Of course for roughing the side ground gouge is at least a 1/3 faster than a traditional gouge and probably more like twice as fast.

That said. Good results can be achieved with a traditional gouge on cut rim bowls.

Al

Al, I have tried all the above in the past 33 years, and my experience is the standard grind is the side grind's equal in all cuts, and better in a few. This is not to say that the style of turning someone else has evolved to, is subject to the criteria I maintain, or set my own standards to. All I'm saying here, is this is what I've concluded, and others can follow whatever procedures suit them.

The following three things are ONLY possible with dimensional consistency of the turnings throughout the entire circumference. They are what the best cut, without tearout, and require little sanding will do......

1. Intersecting surfaces that result in crisp clean corners, and those surfaces mate consistently throughout the circumference of the bowl.

2. Aesthetically pleasing flowing curves that are consistent in shape throughout the circumference.

3. Detail grooves that are consistent in depth and width throughout the circumference.

All of these things are the result of precise tool work, the cleanest of cuts, and dimensional consistency throughout the circumference. The slightest of variation in these three things will cause inconsistencies the eye will pick up, and a turning will fail the visual test. A bowl, under normal circumstances, will have dimensional consistency straight from the tool, so the only thing that will cause any deformities.....is excessive sanding.

It should go without saying, that there is more to the equation than shape of the gouge grind. It also requires an extremely sharp edge, that is maintained throughout the turning session, and knowing how to best manipulate the tool. (The human element is the most important element!)

Al, I wouldn't mind seeing some of your recently completed works that have some, or all of these three characteristics......that is, if you are not still declining to show us. An AAW gallery would be the best way to keep us up-to-date on your recent turnings. I would think, since you are a turning instructor, that it would take a herd of buffalo to keep you from maintaining an accessible collection of current turnings.....

ko

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I never use the swept back grinds any more, and favor the more standard finger nail grinds. The biggest advantages of the swept back grind are 2. One is by being swept back, you have more steel you can put into the wood for roughing. This is fine if you have the horse power to be able to use that much cutting edge at one time. 2 is for the shear scrape. You drop the handle, roll it over till the flutes are upside down, and do gentle pull or push cuts. You can not do this cut on the inside of the bowl because you can't drop the handle. Now, as some one whose primary roughing and shaping tool is a scraper, the swept back grind has no advantage there at all. I push and pull without having to come off of the wood, and I can put as much cutting edge into the wood as my motor will handle. It is faster than any gouge work I have ever seen. For finish cuts, especially since I slide the headstock down to the end and stand upright, I don't have to do a pull cut. I prefer a more open fluted gouge (Doug's U or V gouges), and I roll them over on their sides at 45 to 90 degrees. A wider nose gives a very high shear angle, and by the time I do a finish cut, I am only taking about 1/16 inch of wood off in one pass. For shear scraping, a swept back scraper with a nice burr from the CBN wheel is far better than the swept back grind. One, I have a longer edge, so I get more cutting with a fresh edge. I can get pretty much the same shear angles as a swept back gouge, in the 60 plus degree range. Two, I don't have the flutes covering the cutting edge so I can watch it cut rather than watching the top of the bowl. On the inside of the bowl, I do pretty much the same thing, rough with the scraper, finish cut with a gouge, then touch up with a shear scrape. Since, like with the swept back gouges, I can't drop the handle, I generally use a round nose scraper, or a ) shape nose on the scraper, allowing me to keep the handle fairly level and still get a high shear angle in the 60 plus degree range. On the outside of a bowl, I prefer a 45/45 bevel/sweep gouge. I tried the 40/40 that Stuart Batty prefers, and it is just too pointy for me. On the inside, on the bowl sides, some times I like the 45/45, some times I start with a 60 bevel and finger nail grind. Especially on the inside I prefer the more open flutes from half circle to Doug's U flute. I roll it on the side and cut mostly with the nose. When rolled over, I can get a 45 plus shear angle. Going through the transition, and across the bottom, I prefer a 70 degree bevel. My favorites are the Thompson fluteless gouges which I can easily roll to over 70 degrees. They are great for feather light cuts. For slightly deeper cuts, I like the detail gouges with a ) shaped flute, and a nose like the fluteless gouge with almost no sweep. this one is better for taking cuts 1/8 inch deep or slightly more.

I have a scraper video clip up, and hope to have my gouge video clip up next week some time, along with a 'finish cuts on punky maple and figured myrtle wood'. I got the maple part up, but have to redo that to get the myrtle part added. The fluteless gouge clip has been up for a while.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

Well, I never use the swept back grinds any more, and favor the more standard finger nail grinds. The biggest advantages of the swept back grind are 2. One is by being swept back, you have more steel you can put into the wood for roughing. This is fine if you have the horse power to be able to use that much cutting edge at one time. 2 is for the shear scrape. You drop the handle, roll it over till the flutes are upside down, and do gentle pull or push cuts. You can not do this cut on the inside of the bowl because you can't drop the handle. Now, as some one whose primary roughing and shaping tool is a scraper, the swept back grind has no advantage there at all. I push and pull without having to come off of the wood, and I can put as much cutting edge into the wood as my motor will handle. It is faster than any gouge work I have ever seen. For finish cuts, especially since I slide the headstock down to the end and stand upright, I don't have to do a pull cut. I prefer a more open fluted gouge (Doug's U or V gouges), and I roll them over on their sides at 45 to 90 degrees. A wider nose gives a very high shear angle, and by the time I do a finish cut, I am only taking about 1/16 inch of wood off in one pass. For shear scraping, a swept back scraper with a nice burr from the CBN wheel is far better than the swept back grind. One, I have a longer edge, so I get more cutting with a fresh edge. I can get pretty much the same shear angles as a swept back gouge, in the 60 plus degree range. Two, I don't have the flutes covering the cutting edge so I can watch it cut rather than watching the top of the bowl. On the inside of the bowl, I do pretty much the same thing, rough with the scraper, finish cut with a gouge, then touch up with a shear scrape. Since, like with the swept back gouges, I can't drop the handle, I generally use a round nose scraper, or a ) shape nose on the scraper, allowing me to keep the handle fairly level and still get a high shear angle in the 60 plus degree range. On the outside of a bowl, I prefer a 45/45 bevel/sweep gouge. I tried the 40/40 that Stuart Batty prefers, and it is just too pointy for me. On the inside, on the bowl sides, some times I like the 45/45, some times I start with a 60 bevel and finger nail grind. Especially on the inside I prefer the more open flutes from half circle to Doug's U flute. I roll it on the side and cut mostly with the nose. When rolled over, I can get a 45 plus shear angle. Going through the transition, and across the bottom, I prefer a 70 degree bevel. My favorites are the Thompson fluteless gouges which I can easily roll to over 70 degrees. They are great for feather light cuts. For slightly deeper cuts, I like the detail gouges with a ) shaped flute, and a nose like the fluteless gouge with almost no sweep. this one is better for taking cuts 1/8 inch deep or slightly more.

I have a scraper video clip up, and hope to have my gouge video clip up next week some time, along with a 'finish cuts on punky maple and figured myrtle wood'. I got the maple part up, but have to redo that to get the myrtle part added. The fluteless gouge clip has been up for a while.

robo hippy

Hi Robo......If I'm understanding you correctly, you are doing a shear scrape with a gouge, and with the flute pointing down.....? This is done without a burr, but a normal sharpened edge? I don't understand how this can be done.....can you explain?

Although I'm sacrificing the overall longer edge of the side grind, or swept back, I do prefer the quality of the cut I'm getting with the standard grind. Besides roughing, there is another substantial advantage to the longer edge of the swept back grind.....it kept me from rehoning, or resharpening as often as I do with a standard grind. This is something very inconsequential to me because sharpening/honing has become so quick and precise. The reason the usefulness of the side grind lasts much longer, is because it IS longer. I don't use the entire cutting edge, but rather in sections......so, it takes longer to remove the useful super-sharp edge over the total length. I probably do sharpen/hone much more often than the average turner, but IMHO, it's a small price to pay for the results I get.

When you mention "fingernail grind", are you referring to that standard grind that can be achieved with a shallow flute? You and I may be speaking of similar, or different things but have overlapping definitions........

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Odie,

You can see the shear scrape on the video when I refined the outside of the bowl surface when it is in the chuck.

The shear cut is is one of the basics with the side ground gouge.

The push cut, scraping cut, and shear scrape are taught in almost all beginning bowl classes.
The roughing cut, pull cut are for advanced beginner/ intermediate level.
The shear cut more advanced and there is a back cut used on square edge bowls that is sort of like pushing a scrape but the leading edge of the wing cuts.


Al

 

[odie]

Odie,
You can see the shear scrape on the video.
I do it when I refined the outside of the bowl surface when it is in the chuck.

Al

Al......I have watched your very long video before, and don't look forward to a second time. If you would like to give a specific time to watch, I'll take another look. I'm sure some of those following this thread might want to check it out, as well.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Al......I have watched your very long video before, and don't look forward to a second time. If you would like to give a specific time to watch, I'll take another look. I'm sure some of those following this thread might want to check it out, as well. ko

The video is of a demo for the Tri County woodturners.
Start just before 32 minutes I true the outside with a pull cut.
Then at about 34 minutes I do the shear scrape.

Then just before 35 minutes I do the shear cut on the rim. This is a cut I recommend you Learn from some one in a hands on situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

This demo is more valuable to those that have a context of working with natural edge bowls and side ground gouges.
If you don't have that background you can get overwhelmed by the new material.

And there are many ways to turn a natural edge bowl.
This is but one....

I think it is the best way for me. The demo really show cases the flexibility of the Ellsworth grind.


Al

 

[odie]

The video is of a demo for the Tri County woodturners.
Start just before 32 minutes I true the outside with a pull cut.
Then at about 34 minutes I do the shear scrape.

Then just before 35 minutes I do the shear cut on the rim. This is a cut I recommend you Learn from some one in a hands on situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

This demo is more valuable to those that have a context of working with natural edge bowls and side ground gouges.
If you don't have that background you can get overwhelmed by the new material.

And there are many ways to turn a natural edge bowl.
This is but one....

I think it is the best way for me. The demo really show cases the flexibility of the Ellsworth grind.


Al

Good morning......

Yes Al, your video is just as I remember. You are turning unseasoned wood, using many of the same basic skills that I do, with some differences. The difficulty of getting a finely executed cut, in all the contributing dynamics, change dramatically when the bowl is dry, seasoned, or kiln dried. Truthfully, I believe I could help you to improve your turning skills, if I could show you a few things face to face.......

ko

 

[john lucas]

I haven't read all the discussion yet. will try to do that later. It's really not about the type of grind. It's all about the presentation of the edge to the wood, the sharpening angle of the edge, and how fast or slow you push the tool. You have already discussed edge presentation in one of your videos. A shear angle cuts better than a more flat angle although not every time. On really figured woods somethings an extreme angle will lift fibers out instead of cutting them. However the vast majority of times the more shear angle produces a cleaner cut.
Sharpening angle has a lot do with how clean a tool cuts. My main bowl gouge is sharpened at about 55 degrees, manybe 50. I haven't measured it. I have a gouge sharpened at the Stewart Batty 40 degree grind and my spindle gouges are about 35 degrees. If I have trouble cutting cleanly I switch to the 40 degree grind. If this doesn't work I switch to the 35 if I can still rub the bevel on that bowl. If that doesn't work I switch to a Hunter tool which has a grind that is close to 27 degrees. That almost always works. The Hunter Osprey has the cutter tilted so it cuts with the handle position like a 55 degree bowl gouge when you rub the bevel. For bottom cutting I use the Hunter #5. On that one the cutter is mounted flat so you can clean up the bottom of very steep sided bowls with the handle still easily clearing the rim. Stewart Batty in one of his demo's mentioned that anything under 40 degrees had a tendency to self feed. I can't feel and don't understand what he's talking about because I frequently grab the spindle gouge for cleaner cutter and it's 35 degrees.
Feeding pressure. Too many people force the cut. You have to relax and cut the wood at the rate it needs to be cut. Any faster and you won't get as clean of a cut. Slower than than that can burnish the wood but that's not a bad thing. I also find that on really troublesome wood a more narrow circular edge seems to cut cleaner than a larger circle. Think of the difference between a 3/8" spindle gouge and a 1" spindle gouge. I learned this when doing my mirror handle spindles. I was getting continuous tearout on this one piece of wood using the skew which has a straight edge and held at a pretty acute angle. I even tried more acute angles. when I switch to the smaller detail gouge with the same grind angle the problem went away. It did take more concentration to get a long smooth arc but it cut cleaner.

 

[James Seyfried]

I'm aware that other grinding jigs, and free-form methods will accomplish the same tasks.

ko

But are you aware of how irritating Kenny Rogers can be at a poker table?

I show these cuts in the demo on turning natural edge bowls from a crotch. You can see the finish the gouge leaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jVoI12Kfug

Al

Very nice demo Al! It was very informative and I enjoyed watching it.

Truthfully, I believe I could help you to improve your turning skills, if I could show you a few things face to face.......

ko

I think it is true that most people can learn from others experience. With your habitual parroting of the “herd or group think,†I think you fail to realize that even with all your years of trial and error experience you too can learn from others.

Why even post this question about gouges if you are going to disparage those who reply?

 

[hockenbery]

Good morning...... Yes Al, your video is just as I remember. You are turning unseasoned wood, using many of the same basic skills that I do, with some differences. The difficulty of getting a finely executed cut, in all the contributing dynamics, change dramatically when the bowl is dry, seasoned, or kiln dried. Truthfully, I believe I could help you to improve your turning skills, if I could show you a few things face to face....... ko

I learn something every time I see a demonstration. I would like to see you in a demonstration sometime. I’m sure I would learn something.
I have seen demonstrations by a half dozen of the forum contributors and learned something from each of them.
Several more I have missed when they demonstrated at AAW or a regional because I had other commitments.

As to turning dry domestic wood. Everything in do on wet wood works on dry wood.
dry wood requires lighter cuts,but the same tool presentation.
I turn a natural edge bowls from dry wood on rare occasions using the exact same process.

Al

 

[john lucas]

I agree with Al. Other than the smaller cuts I use the same cuts on dry wood as I do on wet. I do take much larger waste cuts on green wood but the final passes are the same. Very small amounts removed with the edge at a shear angle. I do very much like the pull cut. I find the wing will sharpen at a narrower angle on a some U shaped gouges vs V shape. I have an older no name tool that looks a lot like a Sorby. I have ground that wing about 2" long on the left side and it's an extremely sharp angle. I think about 20 degrees or so. Doesn't hold an edge worth a darn but on a pull cut held at a very steep angle on my hand mirrors it will cut virtually any wood cleanly. The same with bowls of course.
I'm with Al again. I learn something from every demonstrator I've seen. Maybe just some little tip but often it's watching very closely how they use the tool.

 

[hockenbery]

John,
Saw you do a mirror demo years ago. It was a great demo.
You weren't using any carbide tools back then and you did quite well without them.
I imagine you now use them and do even better.

Al

 

[odie]

But are you aware of how irritating Kenny Rogers can be at a poker table?





Very nice demo Al! It was very informative and I enjoyed watching it.



I think it is true that most people can learn from others experience. With your habitual parroting of the “herd or group think,” I think you fail to realize that even with all your years of trial and error experience you too can learn from others.

Why even post this question about gouges if you are going to disparage those who reply?

Well James......there absolutely is a "herd mentality", and those who run with that mentality, are those who don't see it. Those who don't run with the herd, but have kept it in sight......are those who understand things about the herd that only those on the outside can comprehend. I am learning all the time, but I'm thankful from where my vantage point originates. Because of it, my learning is from a different dimension. It is exactly because of my years of "trial and error", that brought me to a different place and perspective. Some of my processes and thinking are completely out of the ordinary. Not that in all things, I have come to the conclusions that mainstream beliefs would have brought me to begin with......admittedly, a few are, but for the most part, they certainly aren't. This learning process has allowed me to make discoveries that are outside of mainstream thought. I don't believe I'm unique in this, but I do feel there are those who have gained some vision into this concept, just as I have. My "trials and errors" hasn't ended......I, to this day, am making little adjustments to my turning process. As I see it, the big difference is I have 20/20 all the way back to my beginnings. I know where I am, why I'm here.....not because mainstream thought has set my course.

The main problem with this "group think", is there are fundamentals, and specific applications which are considered undeniable truths......when, in reality, they are completely conditional.

It isn't my objective to irritate you, or anyone else. It is my objective to speak my thoughts, with the understanding that some will not have the ability to comprehend what it is I'm trying to say.

========================================

John....Essentially, I would agree that the basic cuts are the same with wet or dry wood. However, to put everything under one umbrella wouldn't be good for complete understanding of the variables. There is the matter of tool grind, and most cuts can be done with either grind......but, some will not. In those instances, the choice of tool grind could be critical, and either lead to good or bad results. For many cuts, either will work, and you are correct that the presentation is always critical, if the objective is the best cut. There are those who aren't aware of what the best cut can be, so they are perfectly happy with what they get....all along thinking that they ARE getting the best cut. Then there is the most important aspect of all.....the human input to the total. It is the spirit and body that becomes the matrix which holds it all together.

Al......There is much more than running a lathe and doing a video......it's about finished pieces. There are a zillion videos from turners who are anywhere in the spectrum of turners, according to ability......but, only a few of them have useful information. It's good to see what that turner is capable of producing, so the information in the video is more useful to contemplative thought according to the final results. A gallery of current turnings, puts your video into better perspective for those who watch it.....if they are aware of what you do, or can produce.

ko

 

[robo hippy]

Odie,
When I used to use a gouges for a shear scrape, I would roll the flutes over till they are up side down, meaning they are facing the bowl rather than away from the bowl, so gouge still in same low handle grip. If you roll to 45 degrees or so, then the gouge is in the pull cut position. Hope that makes sense. I did find that they did better if I honed the burr off. That could have been because I over sharpened, and had a too heavy burr on them. The scraper burr just works a lot better and is more versatile.

The shear angle I compare to going over speed bumps in the parking lot. If you hit them square on, you get a pretty good bump. This is a scraping cut, nothing delicate about it. If you hit the speed bump at a 45 degree angle, you still get a bump, but it isn't nearly as severe. The higher the shear or driving angle is, the more gentle the bump is. A high shear is better at getting under the wood fibers and lifting them gently as you cut.

The finish cuts are always a patience thing for me as I want to cut faster than the wood will let me. This is the main problem that most have with the dead center of the bowl. We push too hard, and rip the last little bit out. With the fluteless gouge, I can lift a quarter size piece off instead of it coming off as shavings.

The term 'finger nail' is not very clear... my finger nails are blunt, some women grow theirs way out.... I would call the 40/40 a finger nail grind, so a more rounded nose, and medium amount of sweep. Since my gouges are used mostly rolled over on their sides, I prefer more rounded flute designs, and really don't like the deep V flutes like the Glaser gouges. The nose is the part that does most of the shear cutting.

Like John, I use the same cuts on dry wood that I do on green wood. Dry wood is a lot harder than green wood, regardless of species, so you have to go slower. I have found that if I turn a bowl out of dry wood, I can start sanding at a finer grit than I can when I do green bowls.

robo hippy

 

[Owen Lowe]

Ya know…
One can have tools on the wall with both grinds! At least, I do.

There are times the swept-back works very well and there are times the traditional works very well. If for some reason the one I’m using at the moment isn’t doing what I want, I often reach for the other grind.

Sometimes I run with the turtles and sometimes I run with the sloths; I got friends in both herds.

 

[hockenbery]

Ya know… One can have tools on the wall with both grinds! At least, I do. There are times the swept-back works very well and there are times the traditional works very well. If for some reason the one I’m using at the moment isn’t doing what I want, I often reach for the other grind. Sometimes I run with the turtles and sometimes I run with the sloths; I got friends in both herds.

So true. I also have a gouge with the Michelson grind.

There are jobs for all the grinds.
Most bottom feeder gouges are traditional grind.

The original post asked for examples where the Ellsworth grind produced a superior surface to the English grind.

When I encounter problem woods I try different cuts with the Ellsworth grind, the Michelson, spindle gouges, scrapers, Hunter........

 

[odie]

Odie,
When I used to use a gouges for a shear scrape, I would roll the flutes over till they are up side down, meaning they are facing the bowl rather than away from the bowl, so gouge still in same low handle grip. If you roll to 45 degrees or so, then the gouge is in the pull cut position. Hope that makes sense. I did find that they did better if I honed the burr off. That could have been because I over sharpened, and had a too heavy burr on them. The scraper burr just works a lot better and is more versatile.

The shear angle I compare to going over speed bumps in the parking lot. If you hit them square on, you get a pretty good bump. This is a scraping cut, nothing delicate about it. If you hit the speed bump at a 45 degree angle, you still get a bump, but it isn't nearly as severe. The higher the shear or driving angle is, the more gentle the bump is. A high shear is better at getting under the wood fibers and lifting them gently as you cut.

The finish cuts are always a patience thing for me as I want to cut faster than the wood will let me. This is the main problem that most have with the dead center of the bowl. We push too hard, and rip the last little bit out. With the fluteless gouge, I can lift a quarter size piece off instead of it coming off as shavings.

The term 'finger nail' is not very clear... my finger nails are blunt, some women grow theirs way out.... I would call the 40/40 a finger nail grind, so a more rounded nose, and medium amount of sweep. Since my gouges are used mostly rolled over on their sides, I prefer more rounded flute designs, and really don't like the deep V flutes like the Glaser gouges. The nose is the part that does most of the shear cutting.

Like John, I use the same cuts on dry wood that I do on green wood. Dry wood is a lot harder than green wood, regardless of species, so you have to go slower. I have found that if I turn a bowl out of dry wood, I can start sanding at a finer grit than I can when I do green bowls.

robo hippy

OK, thanks for the clarification, Robo.......I was thinking you meant the flute was straight down. I can see where the side grind might be a better grind for doing a shear scrape using a gouge. I have been doing it differently, but I'm going to give this an experimental shot! Thanks.


Yes, final finish cuts need to be done very lightly, or sparingly. I, too, tend to try to take too much. When I do, I know it immediately through the "feel" of the tool. There is a fine line between finishing cuts using a cutting or scraping action. Both have their advantages, and the trick is knowing when to make the cross-over.

ooc

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

Well James......there absolutely is a "herd mentality", and those who run with that mentality, are those who don't see it. Those who don't run with the herd, but have kept it in sight......are those who understand things about the herd that only those on the outside can comprehend. I am learning all the time, but I'm thankful from where my vantage point originates. Because of it, my learning is from a different dimension. It is exactly because of my years of "trial and error", that brought me to a different place and perspective. Some of my processes and thinking are completely out of the ordinary. Not that in all things, I have come to the conclusions that mainstream beliefs would have brought me to begin with......admittedly, a few are, but for the most part, they certainly aren't. This learning process has allowed me to make discoveries that are outside of mainstream thought. I don't believe I'm unique in this, but I do feel there are those who have gained some vision into this concept, just as I have. My "trials and errors" hasn't ended......I, to this day, am making little adjustments to my turning process. As I see it, the big difference is I have 20/20 all the way back to my beginnings. I know where I am, why I'm here.....not because mainstream thought has set my course.

The main problem with this "group think", is there are fundamentals, and specific applications which are considered undeniable truths......when, in reality, they are completely conditional.

It isn't my objective to irritate you, or anyone else. It is my objective to speak my thoughts, with the understanding that some will not have the ability to comprehend what it is I'm trying to say.

========================================

John....Essentially, I would agree that the basic cuts are the same with wet or dry wood. However, to put everything under one umbrella wouldn't be good for complete understanding of the variables. There is the matter of tool grind, and most cuts can be done with either grind......but, some will not. In those instances, the choice of tool grind could be critical, and either lead to good or bad results. For many cuts, either will work, and you are correct that the presentation is always critical, if the objective is the best cut. There are those who aren't aware of what the best cut can be, so they are perfectly happy with what they get....all along thinking that they ARE getting the best cut. Then there is the most important aspect of all.....the human input to the total. It is the spirit and body that becomes the matrix which holds it all together.

Al......There is much more than running a lathe and doing a video......it's about finished pieces. There are a zillion videos from turners who are anywhere in the spectrum of turners, according to ability......but, only a few of them have useful information. It's good to see what that turner is capable of producing, so the information in the video is more useful to contemplative thought according to the final results. A gallery of current turnings, puts your video into better perspective for those who watch it.....if they are aware of what you do, or can produce.

ko

bullshit.

I'm from Texas and I know bullshit when I smell it.

It was you just a few short months ago that was railing on about NOT going to regional symposiums, NOT submitting your work for peer evaluation, NOT entering your work in an Instant Gallery.

Now you tell Al he should do just that in order to impress you?

I don't know why Al even bothers to engage you in conversation.

as for me - I'll start looking at your threads for pictures only, because I do believe you produce some nice work - and ignore what comes off of your keyboard.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Shawn, well said!

 

[odie]

Shawn.....

My turnings are in the gallery. I am not refusing to let anyone see my work.

Has nothing to do with impressing anyone, but to have words and results connect.

Those who read what I have to say about woodturning can judge my words by what I produce.

I am unable to travel, so you are unlikely to ever see me at any symposium or AAW event.

ko

 

[Hu Lowery]

bullshit.

I'm from Texas and I know bullshit when I smell it.

. . . .

Shawn,

You fail to appreciate Odie's posts for what they are good for, humor! He has just discovered that classically ground tools work! "The herd" made that discovery hundreds of years ago. Now Odie presents it to us as something we should be made aware of.

The knowledge of "the herd" is the knowledge of many thousands of people over many hundreds, even thousands, of years. Nothing wrong with going beyond or at least seeking to go beyond the herd's knowledge, once you have the herd's knowledge. Ignoring common knowledge causes people to waste tons of time though, reinventing often inferior solutions to issues that members of the herd solved long ago. I often wonder how many "great secrets" are shared by dozens or hundreds of people that each think they are unique? Not a lot new in this old world so "the herd" has already tried most "great secrets" and moved beyond them to something better.

Most free thinkers are so busy being free thinkers that they waste most of their time and energy on that and accomplish little, well little other than keeping us happy members of the herd that know when to think outside of the box entertained!

I enjoy Odie for what he brings to the board, a little color. To borrow the words of an old friend, "I'm sure when he gets through reinventing the wheel it will be rounder and better than ever!"

When I want information I read the words of Al and a dozen other members of the herd. The leaders of the herd use the combined knowledge of the herd and countless herds before them. They think outside the box when they need to also, they just don't think they have to reinvent a skew every time they want to turn a spindle!

Hu

 

[robo hippy]

I blame my father for giving me the 'Engineer's mentality', which is 'if it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it anyway'. Some are more curious than others. I don't agree with everything that any one says, but I do think about it.

robo hippy

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

I blame my father for giving me the 'Engineer's mentality', which is 'if it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it anyway'. Some are more curious than others. I don't agree with everything that any one says, but I do think about it.

robo hippy

as an engineer, I must object as I take exception to your statement and feel it must be corrected

Engineer mentality: "If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."

 

[James Seyfried]

I don't agree with everything that any one says, but I do think about it.

robo hippy

I don't even agree with everything that I say!

Jim

 

[odie]

Shawn,

You fail to appreciate Odie's posts for what they are good for, humor! He has just discovered that classically ground tools work! "The herd" made that discovery hundreds of years ago. Now Odie presents it to us as something we should be made aware of.

The knowledge of "the herd" is the knowledge of many thousands of people over many hundreds, even thousands, of years. Nothing wrong with going beyond or at least seeking to go beyond the herd's knowledge, once you have the herd's knowledge. Ignoring common knowledge causes people to waste tons of time though, reinventing often inferior solutions to issues that members of the herd solved long ago. I often wonder how many "great secrets" are shared by dozens or hundreds of people that each think they are unique? Not a lot new in this old world so "the herd" has already tried most "great secrets" and moved beyond them to something better.

Most free thinkers are so busy being free thinkers that they waste most of their time and energy on that and accomplish little, well little other than keeping us happy members of the herd that know when to think outside of the box entertained!

I enjoy Odie for what he brings to the board, a little color. To borrow the words of an old friend, "I'm sure when he gets through reinventing the wheel it will be rounder and better than ever!"

When I want information I read the words of Al and a dozen other members of the herd. The leaders of the herd use the combined knowledge of the herd and countless herds before them. They think outside the box when they need to also, they just don't think they have to reinvent a skew every time they want to turn a spindle!

Hu

This is a good way of looking at it, Hu.......

It helps to not be so irritated by what I say......but, to consider it's content, and accept/reject it according to whatever one feels about it. I could care less either way, because it's my intention to do nothing more than express my opinions on this forum.

One contribution to the conceptual understanding of "herd" is......where the "herd" is today, isn't where it was a hundred years ago......or, even fifty years ago. With the "information age", the "herd" seems to have been adrift from unnatural causes, imho.

BTW: I haven't discovered, or re-discovered the standard grind......I was also using the side-grind, because it is so popular, and I had to give it a thorough testing. The "test period" lasted from when I bought my Wolverine around 1990 or so, to about 2005. Since then, I've been using the side-grind progressively less and less. I still have some side-grind gouges, but to tell the truth, I haven't found a single use for them that the standard grind doesn't do just as well....and, in a few cases, better. (I am going to test Robo's technique of shear scraping with a side grind.....so, I'll have to say "never say never"! I never did, from my first day at the lathe, until now, discontinue using the standard grind. The standard grind is "my roots".

Several years ago, someone posted a roster of different gouge grinds......and, the standard grind wasn't even on it.....omitted entirely from the list! (Some here might remember that.) The point of this, is the "herd" has moved elsewhere. I think quite a few turners whose roots don't go quite so far back, aren't using the standard grind......not because it's a choice, but because they are getting their information from "the group think", which is subject to.....current "herd" thinking!

ko

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Not to beat Kelly down just to voice a warning. As in Patton when the winning generals returned to Rome they had a slave behind them whispering in theit ear " all glory is fleeting" and the indomitable statement that " those who do not learn from history are domed to repeat it" . I have endeavored to learn more from that history since I retired , but lacking all knowledge still am making those errors.
I think Kelly is lacking by calling all a " herd mentality " if they do not do what he did. I think we all develop our own style in time it is just that that search to find it is so ?>+n time consuming and expensive ( from buying the next great tool). It really does not matter what tool you use or how you use it, it is just that the journey is so much fun and we meet so many interesting people on the way .
As with all types of endeavor there are many ways to reach the final goal if we can hang in there long enough to get there.

 

[odie]

Not to beat Kelly down just to voice a warning. As in Patton when the winning generals returned to Rome they had a slave behind them whispering in theit ear " all glory is fleeting" and the indomitable statement that " those who do not learn from history are domed to repeat it" . I have endeavored to learn more from that history since I retired , but lacking all knowledge still am making those errors.
I think Kelly is lacking by calling all a " herd mentality " if they do not do what he did. I think we all develop our own style in time it is just that that search to find it is so ?>+n time consuming and expensive ( from buying the next great tool). It really does not matter what tool you use or how you use it, it is just that the journey is so much fun and we meet so many interesting people on the way .
As with all types of endeavor there are many ways to reach the final goal if we can hang in there long enough to get there.

Yeah, Gerald.....I can see from where you speak. I do feel you made an error to think I consider "all" to be a member of the "herd", who didn't follow the same paths I have taken. It would be incorrect to believe that, but while acknowledging not everyone follows the herd, many more do. There are many turners whose works look exactly like many other's works. Take hollow forms, "brown and round" bowls, and natural edge bowls for instance. There are so many of these that look exactly the same, and any single one of these are indistinguishable from the group of turners who make them. Because of that, there is a great loss of identity in them. These things are a product of "the herd", and have lost a sense of individuality. These turnings usually are made by the same processes, tools, and thinking that can be directly associated with "group thought", or "the herd".

Those turners who take on a sense of individuality, are those who break away from the well traveled path, and produce something new, unique and can be identified as something produced by the individual person who made them. There are literally thousands of turners who fit this description.......but, a hundred times that who don't.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Yeah, Gerald.....I can see from where you speak. I do feel you made an error to think I consider "all" to be a member of the "herd", who didn't follow the same paths I have taken. It would be incorrect to believe that, but while acknowledging not everyone follows the herd, many more do. There are many turners whose works look exactly like many other's works. Take hollow forms, "brown and round" bowls, and natural edge bowls for instance. There are so many of these that look exactly the same, and any single one of these are indistinguishable from the group of turners who make them. Because of that, there is a great loss of identity in them. These things are a product of "the herd", and have lost a sense of individuality. These turnings usually are made by the same processes, tools, and thinking that can be directly associated with "group thought", or "the herd". Those turners who take on a sense of individuality, are those who break away from the well traveled path, and produce something new, unique and can be identified as something produced by the individual person who made them. There are literally thousands of turners who fit this description.......but, a hundred times that who don't. ko

Interesting comments about unique work.
The photos I have seen of your work show bowls of excellent quality.
From my perspective your work fits well among that produced by the herd.
I don't see anything that would allow me to identify your bowls in the AAW instant gallery.

Perhaps you could share with us what makes your bowls unique.

Shape - no
Grooves - no
Size - no
Woods - no
Surface quality - no
Signature - yes

When people look at your work they cannot tell what tools you used, how long it took you to make it.

"Brown and round" describes a body of work. It is not negative or positive just a description.
I turn some brown and round pieces.
Much of your work fits comfortably under the brown and round umbrella.

Al

 

[odie]

Interesting comments about unique work.
The photos I have seen of your work show bowls of excellent quality.
From my perspective your work fits well among that produced by the herd.
I don't see anything that would allow me to identify your bowls in the AAW instant gallery.

Perhaps you could share with us what makes your bowls unique.

Shape - no
Grooves - no
Size - no
Woods - no
Surface quality - no
Signature - yes

When people look at your work they cannot tell what tools you used, how long it took you to make it.

"Brown and round" describes a body of work. It is not negative or positive just a description.
I turn some brown and round pieces.
Much of your work fits comfortably under the brown and round umbrella.

Al

Well whatever, Al.......

I don't blame you for lashing out, I suppose, because I haven't been easy on you. I do feel you need to evaluate your contribution, and practice your turning skills a little more than it appears you do.....especially since you are unwilling to show what it is you do. Anyone who spends any appreciable amount of time with his/her lathe turned on, will produce one or two finished pieces per month.......at the very minimum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is wondering why you are so reluctant to show us your finished works, and why you don't maintain an accessible photo gallery.

Your opinions aren't shared by everyone, especially those who have purchased my bowls online.....and in the past, through art galleries in CA, AZ, and MT, but in an attempt to look at my own works realistically, I know some observers will certainly agree with you. At the extreme, I was once showing my bowls in a community arts and crafts show, and someone asked me, "Why would anyone want to buy your bowls, when there is Tupperware!"! Just goes to show that, while opinions are vast and varied, a few opinions are the product of those incapable of seeing things as those more in tune with artistic expression do. Even then, my work isn't what every art enthusiast appreciates, I'm well aware of that......The concept of "art" is a great unknowable thing for any individual to have understanding and appreciation of the whole spectrum.

From the few pieces you've showed us, none that I can tell, fit the definition of well executed tool work, and don't adhere to the three things critical to preserving the integrity of shape. (Maybe you didn't read that post, or understand their importance, so I'll repost these three things below.) The result of not fitting these three noted points, is excessive sanding.

ko

The following three things are ONLY possible with dimensional consistency of the turnings throughout the entire circumference. They are what the best cut, without tearout, and require little sanding will do......

1. Intersecting surfaces that result in crisp clean corners, and those surfaces mate consistently throughout the circumference of the bowl.

2. Aesthetically pleasing flowing curves that are consistent in shape throughout the circumference.

3. Detail grooves that are consistent in depth and width throughout the circumference.

All of these things are the result of precise tool work, the cleanest of cuts, and dimensional consistency throughout the circumference. The slightest of variation in these three things will cause inconsistencies the eye will pick up, and a turning will fail the visual test. A bowl, under normal circumstances, will have dimensional consistency straight from the tool, so the only thing that will cause any deformities.....is excessive sanding.

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,
You missed the point.
There was no lashing out intended. Your bowls are very nice.
A lot of folks would stand inline to buy them.

What is unique about your bowls?
You made a point about the lack of uniqueness among the works of the herd.

I pointed out that your work fits well among that of the herd.
You seem to think your work is unique.

What aspects do you find unique?

Al

 

[odie]

Kelly,
You missed the point. Mr here was no lashing out intended.

Your bowls are very nice. A lot of folks would stand inline to buy them.

What is unique about your bowls?

You made a point about the lack of uniqueness among the works of the herd.
I pointed out that your work fits well among that of the herd.

You seem to think your work is unique.
What aspects do you find unique?

Al......

Thank you.

I hesitate to critique my own work, because I wish to maintain some sense of integrity. I do acknowledge that if you don't think my work is unique, then it isn't unique in your eyes. I think of some of the old masters, and revel in their simple excellence and elegance, which corresponds to their individual uniqueness.....masters such as Bob Stocksdale, Rude Osolnik, Dale Nish, among many others. These noted turners produced some very simple works, and were very well executed.....the appeal and uniqueness goes beyond any attempt to be descriptive of why that appeal exists for me. Some probably won't see these great turners of the past in the same way I see them, so the concept of "uniqueness" may not apply equally to everyone.

There are many turners who produce things I feel are "unique", and very artistically pleasing......from the simple to the very complex.....even those who are mostly embellishers, of which I feel some show very few lathe skills, but have great artistic creativity and appeal.....in their own unique way.

ko

 

[robo hippy]

I don't critique. As I said to my dad once, 'Opinions are like rear ends, every one has one'. Not losing a second, he quipped back 'Yea, and some of them stink'. I added, some time later, 'well some are pretty hot too'. I don't put up pictures in part because I haven't figured that one out yet, and in part because I don't care. One ceramic artist commented to me once, 'Your bowls are all so utilitarian'. He was trying to be polite, but couldn't understand why I wasn't more artistic. I just like plain and simple, just like me. Plus it is easier and faster to do. Most of my bowls are red and warped (Madrone), and the more warped they are, the better they tend to sell for me. The pictures I have on my web site do show some pieces from maybe 15 years ago. I have refined, but I never hang on to any of them. I am more curious about how the next one will turn out. Some love my pieces, some don't get it. They all sell eventually, so it is always on to the next one.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

I don't critique. As I said to my dad once, 'Opinions are like rear ends, every one has one'. Not losing a second, he quipped back 'Yea, and some of them stink'. I added, some time later, 'well some are pretty hot too'. I don't put up pictures in part because I haven't figured that one out yet, and in part because I don't care. One ceramic artist commented to me once, 'Your bowls are all so utilitarian'. He was trying to be polite, but couldn't understand why I wasn't more artistic. I just like plain and simple, just like me. Plus it is easier and faster to do. Most of my bowls are red and warped (Madrone), and the more warped they are, the better they tend to sell for me. The pictures I have on my web site do show some pieces from maybe 15 years ago. I have refined, but I never hang on to any of them. I am more curious about how the next one will turn out. Some love my pieces, some don't get it. They all sell eventually, so it is always on to the next one.

robo hippy

You know, Robo......You should put a link to your web page in you signature line. Those who don't know you will be curious about your works. It is important that you do have a gallery that is accessible, since you are one whom others rely on for your input. I believe, at one time, you expressed your thoughts about ethics, because you do have things for sale on your site. I think you could make a link directly to your site gallery, and have a clear conscience about that.........

ko