Turning breakthrough

[Alan Weinberg]

You old guys will laugh at this since you already know what I’m about to write—when I started turning 2 years ago, I was told of the importance of sharp tools. Sharpening was hard to learn and I started out with cheap aluminum oxide wheels of 80 and 180 grit. And I sharpened my tools. I thought they were sharp. They weren’t.

Recently I upgraded and bought a CBN wheel from D-way, 220 grit. And I thought my tools were sharp when I switched to that. They weren’t.

I was still getting tear out and doing a lot of sanding, usually starting at 80 grit.

So in December Rockler had a sale on a 600 grit CBN wheel. I bought it. Delivery kept being delayed and it finally arrived a couple days ago. Took almost 3 months.

I used it today. And then turned 3 pieces—walnut, eucalyptus, olive—and no tear out! Started sanding at 180.

Blew my mind. I thought I had a technique issue hearing that others had little tear out and I had a lot. I had turned up my rpm, tried shear scraping, but still had tear out and I thought my tools were sharp. They weren’t. But they are now. Lesson learned. Finally.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

You old guys will laugh at this since you already know what I’m about to write—when I started turning 2 years ago, I was told of the importance of sharp tools. Sharpening was hard to learn and I started out with cheap aluminum oxide wheels of 80 and 180 grit. And I sharpened my tools. I thought they were sharp. They weren’t.

Recently I upgraded and bought a CBN wheel from D-way, 220 grit. And I thought my tools were sharp when I switched to that. They weren’t.

I was still getting tear out and doing a lot of sanding, usually starting at 80 grit.

So in December Rockler had a sale on a 600 grit CBN wheel. I bought it. Delivery kept being delayed and it finally arrived a couple days ago. Took almost 3 months.

I used it today. And then turned 3 pieces—walnut, eucalyptus, olive—and no tear out! Started sanding at 180.

Blew my mind. I thought I had a technique issue hearing that others had little tear out and I had a lot. I had turned up my rpm, tried shear scraping, but still had tear out and I thought my tools were sharp. They weren’t. But they are now. Lesson learned. Finally.

Yup!! I have learned a lot of turning problems are due to poor equipment!

 

[Bill Alston]

It took me a while to appreciate this as well Alan. An acute angle doesn’t mean a sharp tool. A while ago I started finishing off the sharpening process with an 800g belt and noticed the difference straight away on spindle work.

 

[John K Jordan]

You old guys will laugh at this since you already know what I’m about to write…
…CBN wheel from D-way, 220 grit I was still getting tear out and doing a lot of sanding, usually starting at 80 grit.
… 600 grit CBN wheel. I bought it. Delivery kept being delayed and it finally arrived a couple days ago. —and no tear out! Started sanding at 180.

No laughing here, not even a chuckle! (Caveat - I am an old guy and have some experience but I’m in no way an “expert.”)

I teach what I call “sharp, sharp, sharp, shaving sharp” and demonstrate by shaving hair off my arm.
I think tear out can be a combination of things like:

• tool used
• turning technique
• the type of wood
• figure and grain orientation
• localized problem spots in the wood
• and tool control

IMO sharp, sharp, sharp tools can make a huge difference.
(There are things, such as surface treatment, that can be done to minimize tear out, but sharp sharp turmps sharp)

After experimenting for years with various sharpening methods (conventional grinding wheels, Tormek water wheel, various CBN grits, different grinds), I am quite happy with my current setup:

• 60 grit CBN on bench grinder for shaping/reshaping tools (I use the “1/2 speed” bench grinders).
• 600 grit CBN on bench grinder for sharpening almost everything.
• 1200 grit CBN on a Tormek (no water) for sharpening my spindle gouges.

I use the 600 grit for skews, parting tools, bedan, bowl gouges, scrapers, negative rake scrapers, hand scrapers, etc.
I remove any burrs by stropping on the Tormek flat and contoured leather wheels.
All scrapers have a burnished burr applied by hand.
When needed, I restore the “shaving sharp” edges on skews with my custom honing board.
Note: I did try a 600 grit CBN on the Tormek but like the 1200 grit better for my spindle gouges, put the 600 on the shelf. (I keep multiple identical spindle gouges and when one starts to get dull I set it aside and get out another one and keep turning. When all are dull, I sharpen them all.)

Besides the sharpness, I think tool control is the biggest issue. Unfortunately, starting and sticking primarily with bowl turning is not always the quickest way to go. Some experts suggest starting with spindle turning to learn fine tool control. I strongly agree.
They say perfecting spindle turning first teaches that tool control that will let you turn anything - unfortunately, they say it doesn’t work the other way.
(I have references and my own observations of students.)

Unfortunately, spindle turning is not glamorous the to the turner addicted to bowls, bowls, and bigger bowls. (I have other addictions.)
But when I observe some of the best woodturners I know, ALL of them are extremely good with spindles - even though they can turn anything.

BTW, when I started turning I learned mostly from books, then took a class on bowl turning. There, I was taught what turned out to be several very bad techniques about turning and sanding, I’ve since learned better ways. I now turn bowls and platters with rarely a spot of tearout,, smooth with NRS and hand scrapers, and usually start sanding (by hand) with 320 grit, sometimes start at 400. I have one piece I show to students/at demos that was sanded only with 600 grit. (Don’t get me wrong, this is not for bragging rights - I’ll certainly go to coarser grits if needed.) Also, I now NEVER power sand with rotating disks. With other methods there is no need, and far less dust goes into the air. Most of my sanding is by hand with a small piece of sandpaper backed up with a soft eraser. And I’d be lost without my custom hand scrapers.

One big note: I almost always turn dry wood, small or large. (The biggest problem is GETTING dry wood without spending a fortune but that can be solved) Don’t misunderstand, I HAVE turned a lot of green over the years and it’s far easier to turn (almost too easy) but I don’t like the wet mess, the smoothing process and the natural warping. I know many do and that’s OK with me. There are enough green wood bowl turners, I’d rather do something else.

(There is a little trick John Lucas taught me to repair the occasional small speck of tear out, described earlier here at least once.)

Oh, and to really experience the difference, try chip carving (or any carving by hand) without razor sharp tools. Or better, don’t.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

When turning end grain, it is possible to get surfaces that are totally free of tear out, as long as you are cutting in the proper directions. With bowls/side grain, the bowl has side grain so you are cutting with and then against the grain. There is always tear out because when you cut against the grain/up hill, there are unsupported fibers. Depending on the wood, this can be minimal or a lot. A 600 grit wheel will make a big difference in punky woods, and also in softer woods that are prone to tear out. Even if you can't see it, you can feel it with your fingers. You can also see it with lighting that goes across the grain, and it will appear to be lighter in color than the rest of the wood around the bowl.

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

When turning end grain, it is possible to get surfaces that are totally free of tear out, as long as you are cutting in the proper directions. With bowls/side grain, the bowl has side grain so you are cutting with and then against the grain. There is always tear out because when you cut against the grain/up hill, there are unsupported fibers. Depending on the wood, this can be minimal or a lot.

You’ve got the part about the type of wood right. But I seldom get tearout on the sides/insides of bowls in face grain with wood like dry cherry, walnut, maple, persimmon, mahogany, cedar, olive, etc, at least none I can see or feel after 400/600 sanding and finish. (Sharpening to 600 grit and stropping to razor sharp, or using a sharp Hunter Hercules.) I find punky wood more challenging. Don’t know about wet wood, not much experience with that.

BTW, on some pieces where I’m “cutting air” I cut uphill against the grain on purpose, for a necessary reason (explained in my Small Squarish platters demo). But sharp sharp sharp is needed with a delicate touch (a “whisper” cut). Heavy hand not allowed, or yes, it will rip the fibers out of the wood.

JKJ

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Just to play devils advocate- I only sharpen to 180 with a cbn wheel because that was the consensus I got from the hive mind here when I started.

But hive or herd intellect, call it what you will. Now I feel the need to go buy a higher grit wheel just because. Thanks... I'm still one tool away from greatness I guess.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Just to play devils advocate- I only sharpen to 180 with a cbn wheel because that was the consensus I got from the hive mind here when I started.

But hive or herd intellect, call it what you will. Now I feel the need to go buy a higher grit wheel just because. Thanks... I'm still one tool away from greatness I guess.

My Verigrind is set up on my 360 grit wheel. I don't like removing it for non-bowl gouge sharpening, so I just use the 80 grit wheel on my scrapers, spindle roughing gouge, etc. Works fine for me.

Someone did an extensive test here a year or so back. The summary (if I remember correctly) was that the edge on the 80 grit wheel was not noticeably different than the higher grit wheel.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

the edge on the 80 grit wheel was not noticeably different than the higher grit wheel.

Hard to believe.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Hard to believe.

It might have been this thread, but the one I remember had closeups: https://www.aawforum.org/community/threads/sharpening-grit-test.22178/

 

[robo hippy]

I have mostly 180 and 600 grit CBN wheels in my shop. There is a very noticeable difference between the edges from the 180 and the 600 grit. Mostly about getting a cleaner cut, especially on punky wood.

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

I have mostly 180 and 600 grit CBN wheels in my shop. There is a very noticeable difference between the edges from the 180 and the 600 grit. Mostly about getting a cleaner cut, especially on punky wood.

robo hippy

For me there is a difference depending on- depending on the wood and what I’m cutting. For example, I found that if I’m careful I can sometimes turn a spindle that needs no sanding. I have an example I show of one from holly that has zero sanding. With a coarser grind on very fine-grained wood there are sometime tiny scratch marks on ebony that need to be hit with at least 600 grit paper. Or coarser, if I’m not having a good day (or good luck!)

I sharpen scrapers, skews, and most gouges on 600 grit cbn on a bench grinder, spindle gouges with 1200 grit cbn on a Tormek. I always touch up tools with the leather wheels on the Tormek with a little of their stropping/honing compound and touch up some tools with the little Extra Fine EzeLap diamond hones. I think the edges last a little longer but have’t done any careful comparison tests.

JKJ

 

[William Rogers]

I won’t get a 600 grit. 90% time you are just getting wood out of the way and a 180 grit IMO is more effective. For final cuts I hone and feel I get equal to or better than 600 grit. I’m sure a 600 grit is great for the final cuts, but just not worth it to me. For skews, scrapers, parting tools and etc I use the Sorby ProEdge belt sander. Normally 220, but have belts up to 1200. I prefer non hollow ground, but that could be personal preference as much as anything.

 

[Odie]

For final cuts I hone and feel I get equal to or better than 600 grit.

Hi Bill....

The reason honing by hand with 600gt creates a better, sharper edge.......is because that edge can be created from multiple directions.

Any edge created by a fast spinning wheel is limited to the fineness of the edge that can be created from a single direction.

And THAT..........is the difference!

=o=

 

[Bill Boehme]

As Alan Lacer tells his students, "if you can see the edge then you don’t have an edge."

 

[hughie]

I think we have all been there at some stage. Due to my engineering background I started out with 80/120 on a dual wheel grinder many years ago slowly graduated to diamond hones and CBN 140/600 and finally 1000 for my carbide gouge tips. A bit slow out of the gate due the high cost of CBN in the beginning, but the difference between a 80 grit edge versus 1000grit is bordering on night and day for me, theres no going back.

 

[John K Jordan]

As Alan Lacer tells his students, "if you can see the edge then you don’t have an edge."

That's old knife sharpener wisdom too - see any light from an edge, dull knife.
Look at a tool fresh off a CBN wheel or grinder with a microscope. An eye-opener.
I use a low power stereo microscope for wood ID, examining bugs, feathers, pond water, splinters, turning tools, knives and scalpels. (BTW, a #11 scalpel, a stereo micro scope, and a deeply embedded splinter in my finger - quick fix. Although a simple splinter extraction almost makes my Lovely Bride pass out.)

JKJ

 

[Bill Alston]

Digging splinters out with a scalpel blade happens more often than I’d like when doing metalwork. Some are too small to see with the naked eye so I use a linen tester (type of open magnifier) to help see what I’m doing.

 

[John K Jordan]

Digging splinters out with a scalpel blade happens more often than I’d like when doing metalwork. Some are too small to see with the naked eye so I use a linen tester (type of open magnifier) to help see what I’m doing.

I have a variety of lighted and passive magnifiers, but some things I really like about the stereo microscope: it’s true stereo so what you see is 3-dimensional which makes self surgery easier, has a good light built in, excellent focus control. (For those who haven’t done this, I use a #11 pointed blade in a scalpel handle, slit the skin starting the splinter entry point, then cut upwards as I go deeper until I locate the end of the splinter. Cut along the splinter to expose the length. Pry it up and out with the point of the scalpel, look for and remove any remaining bits (especialy deeper points), add a bit of disinfectant, and a bandaid if I’ve feeling wimpy.

The microscope leaves the operating subject and fingers free, but I suspect a good magnifier on a stand would work ok.

One thing a metal worker taught me was to keep a strong magnet hand in the event of a steel sliver in the eye. I wear good eye protection an have never had to use it. I did get a small, thin wood fragment in my eye once and had to visit a professional to remove it. No lacerations or embedded splinter, just a tiny flake from handling lots of wood in a warehouse, but the piece got stuck under the eyeball where no amount of irrigation on my part would remove it.

I was 30 minutes away when I called my eye dr. They were closing but one eye doctor waited until I came. He found and removed it in about 10 seconds. Bless him! Saved a trip to the er.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

Hi Bill....

The reason honing by hand with 600gt creates a better, sharper edge.......is because that edge can be created from multiple directions.

Any edge created by a fast spinning wheel is limited to the fineness of the edge that can be created from a single direction.

And THAT..........is the difference!

=o=

Odie, color me puzzled.... I am not sure how coming at the edge from different directions makes a difference. For sure, there is a huge difference between "grinding" and "sharpening" which is how much pressure you are putting on the tool into the grinding wheel as you sharpen.

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

Odie, color me puzzled.... I am not sure how coming at the edge from different directions makes a difference. For sure, there is a huge difference between "grinding" and "sharpening" which is how much pressure you are putting on the tool into the grinding wheel as you sharpen.

robo hippy

Howdy robo.....

As someone who was a fanatical hunter at one time, I learned how to sharpen a knife to a keen edge. It was way back then when I realized that keen edge can be improved by using alternating directional honing techniques. .......and, Yes.......you are absolutely correct, robo.......the pressure one uses to create a keen edge is likewise important to the results possible.

=o=

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I sharpen my gouges on 180 and everything else on 80. Since I have improved my technique and tool control I don’t get tear out with tools off the 180 grit wheel.

 

[hughie]

Hi Bill....

The reason honing by hand with 600gt creates a better, sharper edge.......is because that edge can be created from multiple directions.

Any edge created by a fast spinning wheel is limited to the fineness of the edge that can be created from a single direction.

And THAT..........is the difference!

=o=

that is so true.

 

[Ed Hall]

thank you all..... now i am completely bewildered
hand hone at 600 grit ?????
buy yet another expensive cbn wheel ????
so i have a load of punky spalted maple gave up on trying to make bowls because of the tearout
i will give this a try on them one way or another
if anyone has a video of "alternating directional honing techniques" on bowl gouges lmk
thx
ed

 

[Bill Alston]

I sharpen my tools on a belt grinder then give them a final polish with an 800g belt. I’ve recently bought a roll of 600g aluminium oxide abrasive and made some belts but I’ve not tried them yet. I expect they’ll be fine though. My grinder (Axminster Ultimate Edge) has forward and reverse so I can choose which direction gives the best result.

 

[hockenbery]

so i have a load of punky spalted maple gave up on trying to make bowls because of the tearout

In Florida maple can pass its use by date in weeks. Really punky wood tears instead of cuts because there is no support for the fibers you are cutting

My first step with punky wood is the screw driver test.
I have an old flat bladed screwdriver without any sharp edges on the blade.
If I can push it in deeper than an 1/8” or more than a slight dent with little force the wood it too soft for me.

I don’t hone my Ellsworth ground bowl gouges use them off an 80 grit CBN.
My spindle gouges and small Michelson ground gouge are sharpened on an 180 CBN.

I cut down hill - foot to rim on the outside and rim to bottom center on the inside.
Each fiber cut is supported by a longer fiber behind it. With punky wood the fibers compress before cutting and when they aren’t rigid enough to support the fiber being cut the fibers pull and tear.

If I’m getting a little tear out first try spritzing with water this will often swell the fibers enough to make then tight and support the cut of fibers. Next step is wetting the surface with thin shellac ( thined lacquer works too). The shellac often bonds the fibers together enough to support the cut. Also shallower cuts have less tearout. A 1/128 shaving tears less than a 1/64 shaveing.

I don’t worry about tearout from a 1/2” roughing cut shaving. I progress in shavings from 1/2-> 1/4 -> 1/8
I then inspect for tear out. Treat tearout with water or shellac take 1/16” cut inspect treat tearout with water or shellac take a 1/16” more. We should be pretty clean cutting by now. Tiny tearout that can sanded out with 220 is ok for punky wood.

sharp tools, light cuts, float the bevel, don’t scrape


Hope this helps

 

[John K Jordan]

My first step with punky wood is the screw driver test.
I have an old flat bladed screwdriver without any sharp edges on the blade.
If I can push it in deeper than an 1/8” or more than a slight dent with little force the wood it too soft for me.

Yikes! I use the thumbnail test with light pressure and if it makes a mark I stabilize the punky stuff with thin CA. One bowl was so bad it took two bottles.

Someone sent me a chunk of spalted liquidamber (sweet gum) that had sentimental value. It was so punky a fingernail would tear out a chunk. Thin CA made it turn as smooth as glass. This little piece is about 2" tall.

JKJ

 

[Bill Boehme]

thank you all..... now i am completely bewildered
hand hone at 600 grit ?????
buy yet another expensive cbn wheel ????

No, you hand hone with a diamond slipstone. You can get them from Alan Laer.

 

[John K Jordan]

hand hone at 600 grit ?????
buy yet another expensive cbn wheel ????

No, you hand hone with a diamond slipstone. You can get them from Alan Laer.

+1 on Alan Lacer's diamond hone. I'm a hard core honing maniac and bought one to try. Not real cheap but IMO worth it. The curved edges are perfect for inside the flutes on gouges. More info here (note about the cleaning):

Diamond Slipstone/Hone BACK IN STOCK!

Diamond hone, diamond slipstone, round edge hone

stores.alanswoodturningstore.com

Far cheaper, more limited, but good for many tools are the eze-Lap diamond paddle hones. I prefer the blue Extra Fine one for skews and the outside curve of gouges and NRS and the red Fine hone for hand scrapers. (I use these so often I contacted the company and bought a life-time supply at a big discount. I know, that sounds a bit insane...)

JKJ

 

[Dave Landers]

thank you all..... now i am completely bewildered

It's like a lot of things woodturning. Ask 10 turners and you'll get 12 different answers.

We have each invested a lot of time, money, and energy into our sharpening methods. After all that investment we become a bit biased about the "right way". "I spent all that time and money, and it's working, so it must be THE method!"

There are lots of ways to get a tool sharp. If a tool is sharp enough for what you need it to do, then it matters not how it got to that point.

I think the best approach to learning sharpening (and other turning skills) is to find a class or a mentor and just do what they teach. Later, as skills and experience develop you can branch out and try other things...

 

[robo hippy]

I never bother with honing. A quick trip to the grinder is easier for me, and I "sharpen" which is different from "grinding". Just a quick pass is all it takes. I use a platform, and not a jig.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

thank you all..... now i am completely bewildered

It's like a lot of things woodturning. Ask 10 turners and you'll get 12 different answers.

We have each invested a lot of time, money, and energy into our sharpening methods. After all that investment we become a bit biased about the "right way". "I spent all that time and money, and it's working, so it must be THE method!"

A Yogi Berra take “woodturning is 90% mental, the other half is physical”

Those who believe in honing get better results honing
Those that don’t believe in honing get better results not honing.

turners vary a lot in what tools they use and how they have learned to use them.

 

[John K Jordan]

turners vary a lot in what tools they use and how they have learned to use them.

WHAT??! When did that happen?

 

[Mike Novak]

For what it’s worth, I had the same epiphany as @Alan Weinberg when I bought a 1000 CBN. I have found that 1000 is too fine for an 1800 rpm grinder. I have to be very careful about not burning the edge. I can easily get “shaving sharp” with it.

I’d love to be able to hone like @Odie, but I have a tremor that makes it impossible for me. I need a guide or jig.

Regarding the different preferences people have, I suspect that these variables make a difference:
*Wet vs dry wood. Dry is more demanding
*turning technique. Sharper tools are more forgiving
* sharpening repeatability. If I sharpen with a verigrind on my 1000 CBN it takes WAY too long. The Tormek jig I use is much more repeatable, so it only takes a couple seconds. For platform work I have found this method to be extremely repeatable and relatively fast. https://www.aawforum.org/community/...with-the-oneway-wolverine-grinding-jig.22963/

I have an 80 that I use for shaping and scrapers.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I have mostly 180 and 600 grit CBN wheels in my shop. There is a very noticeable difference between the edges from the 180 and the 600 grit. Mostly about getting a cleaner cut, especially on punky wood.

robo hippy

I have the same grit CBN wheels. There is a noticeable difference.

 

[Kirk Amidon]

I have the same grit CBN wheels. There is a noticeable difference.

Reading this is better than any marketing department could come up with...dagnabbit, looks like a 600 grit wheel will show up here soon.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

I have the same grit CBN wheels. There is a noticeable difference.

So do I!

 

[robo hippy]

I would also say that there isn't much of a difference between the edges if you sharpen on a 180 and go to a 320. With the 600 there is a difference. Our club had a sharpening demo last night, 3 turners, and I was the last since I do platform sharpening. The thing is polishing the flutes came up. I would guess that if I was to want to polish the flutes, I would take some MDF and shape it, then apply stropping compound. There are so many different compounds, but for sure the skew needs the burr stropped off. The colors of the stropping bar compounds do not really indicate "grit". There are some diamond compounds which are listed in microns, which being a gringo/yankee, I don't relate to. The black bars in the big box stores, some one said, are about 800 grit. Jewelers rouge is in the 30,000 grit range, and there is a green compound from Tay Tools, which is in the 60,000 grit range. Not sure that is necessary for us. I do need to get my hands on some big leaf maple and see what, if any difference stropping off the burr would make. BLM is one difficult wood to get very clean cuts in! Oh, with the skew, if you don't strop the burr off, you can notice, at least I did, that it seems to cut fine in one direction, but flip it over and try the same cut coming back, and the difference is huge enough that the little ole bowl turner me really noticed it.

robo hippy

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I would guess that if I was to want to polish the flutes, I would take some MDF and shape it, then apply stropping compound.

robo hippy

I use Lee Valley green chromium dioxide compound on this, supposedly .5 micron or about#30,000. Mainly for maintaining carving tools, but will experiment with it on turning gouges following #600 CBN grinding.

 

[John K Jordan]

there isn't much of a difference between the edges if you sharpen on a 180 and go to a 320.

I think that's what I started with when I got my first CBN wheels. After several iterations I now use a 60 grit 8" wheel for shaping, a 600 grit 8" wheel for sharpening most tools, and a 1200 grit 10" wheel on a Tormek (dry) for my spindle gouges.

I do like the leather wheels on the Tormek for stropping, flat and profiled. I use either the Tormek compound, the green, yellow, white, or whatever is handy. I use the wheels to remove the burr and polish the cutting edges of skews, gouges, parting tools, almost everything. Makes a difference.

Also, I posted this before - it really works well for skews and other straight-edge tools: a piece of MDF resawn on the bandsaw to leave "kind of" rough surfaces. I rub pollishing/honing compound into the surface. Hold the skew bevel tight against the MDF, lift the handly a tiny bit and pull back while pressing down. The blackening of the compound proves it's removing metal. The polished edge and the arm hair it easily shaves proves the sharpness.

This one is ready for a bit more compound. When I make these for friends they use them.

JKJ