Turning end grain?

[John Torchick]

Is there a rule of thumb for turning end grain? Have a piece of, I believe, cherry mounted on the lathe. Piece is 3-3/8 in diameter and 4-1/4 long. Started to hollow with a Forstner bit but wasn't comfortable with the "action" of the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Well, there are many methods, but most turners including myself, hollow from the center out, using a spindle gouge or a Hunter hollowing tool. For your size piece of wood, these tools should be no problem.

I don't prefer a forstner bit because of the heat produced and the way it leaves a straight hole with a divet in the bottom.

Also negative rake scrapers are a great choice, such as these from D-Way. If you are going to hollow a lot, these tools are an excellent investment and leave a very smooth surface. They also are excellent for blending the interior curve.

1/2" Double-ended Curved NEG Rake Scraper

1/2" Curved Negative Rake Scraper. Double-ended, left & right curve.

d-waytools.com

 

[John Torchick]

Have the scrapers but this is my first attempt. Different than watching a YT video, though. Back to the shop!
BTW, former Buckeye here.

 

[Ron Solfest]

Put a spindle gouge roughly straight into the center, flute pointing ~toward you at ~10 0’clock, and pull the gouge toward you. The bottom of the gouge will cut cleanly. You can adjust the gouge more open/closed depending on how aggressive you want to be.

 

[John Torchick]

Ron, thanks.

 

[John K Jordan]

Started to hollow with a Forstner bit but wasn't comfortable with the "action" of the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Curious, what "action" of the jacob's chuck did you not like?

To remove a center core of wood to make hollowing something like a box quicker, I often drill with forstner bits in a jacob's chuck. But I do these things:

• I use cheap carbide forstner bits (one shown below) rather than good quality bits. These don't cut as smooth a hole as the high end HSS bits but they cut faster and with less heat and stress. And they never get dull! The carbide bits have just two primary points that score the fibers at the circumference and two flat blades that then scoop out the scored fibers. This works especially well for drilling in side grain but also well for end grain.
• I have one entire set of forstners that have hex shafts. These are easily held in a jacob's chuck without slipping. Woodcraft had a couple of sets for 90% off one day and I couldn't resist.
• Forstners with a 3/8" round shaft get mounted in a precision 3/8" End Mill holder held securely with a hex set screw. These come in different styles - for at the lathe I chose one with a #2MT to fit into the tailstock. To keep the MT from spinning in the tailstock, I do the same as with taper shank bits: constrain it from spinning, either hold it with vise grips resting against the tool rest, or in this case by simply inserting a t-handle hex key in the set screw socket. Drilling this way doesn't create much force. If drilling from the headstock, just use a drawbar.
• And the MOST important thing is something I tried one day after hit with a sudden Epiphany - I directed a constant strong stream of compressed air behind the forstner bit while drilling. Now I never use forstners without the compressed air. This does two things: it keeps the bit cooler (especially important for the smooth-cutting HSS bits), AND continuously blows out chips so they don't accumulate and jam, heat, and slow down the cut. It's amazing how much this improves the drilling, especially for deep holes.

Pic showing a carbide forstner bit held in an end mill holder. I got this one 2-1/8" and another 2-1/16" diameter just to drill recess holes in the top of a bowl blank for 50mm chuck jaws. (This was before I started using an entirely different method on the top and gave up the drilling completely.)
I liked the 2-1/16" better for 50mm jaws but a friend pointed out if the hole was 2-1/8 at the BOTTOM of a bowl the larger bit would leave just enough room between the jaws to insert the right caliper to check the thickness at the bottom.

I mostly use forstner bits now while teaching to show one of several options to start a face turning (not every student owns every possible tool - gasp!)

When drilling a hole I want to enlarge and make a smooth bottom, say in the bottom of a box, I stop short so the point in the middle doesn't leave a mark. However, if the bit AND the wood is constrained on the lathe the point can be ground off since it won't be needed to keep the hole centered.

JKJ

 

[Lennart Delin]

For hollowing end grain bowls, not vases with narrow openings, I start with spindle gouge as Ron described. Then I switch to the ring tool and finish to final thickness at the rim, then go a little deeper maybe 2 cm to final thickness and so on, never go back to the rim later. For ring tool use I thoroughly recommend svarvulf, Instagram Svarvulf

 

[John Torchick]

JKJ, the bit kept grabbing some. Not sure if it's the wood which I thing is cherry.
Going to take inventory of my tools- have two spindle gouges, round nose gouge and a square nose gouge. Surely something will work.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Is there a rule of thumb for turning end grain? Have a piece of, I believe, cherry mounted on the lathe. Piece is 3-3/8 in diameter and 4-1/4 long. Started to hollow with a Forstner bit but wasn't comfortable with the "action" of the Jacobs chuck in the tailstock. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

What size bit were you using?

 

[robo hippy]

Well, first step for me is to take a drill bit, about 1/4 inch plus in a set of vice grips, and into a small cone already turned into the end grain, insert it for depth. A small O ring can serve as a depth guide. After that, I will use a spindle detail gouge to pull from the center to the top rim. Pull in an uphill/lower to higher position pattern. The NRS is a detail tool, not for heavy roughing cuts, so after all the hollowing is done, then use the NRS for clean up. When you learn how to use one well, then 400 grit will rough up the surface, not make it smoother. I never have figured out the Richard Raffan method of hollowing/back cut, but here is a link to that video. Tomislav also does one, but in this one, I think Richard does a slightly better job. The standard drill bit just works better for me than a forstner bit does. A spindle detail gouge also will drill down fairly well. Think of the old fashioned "spoon" bits if you ever watched Roy Underhill on PBS.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KdPGAqXOds


robo hippy

 

[Dean Center]

What Gabriel said. And Ron and Reed, too. This is where understanding grain orientation is crucial. It's not a bowl.

Forstner bits get dull and are hard for me to sharpen. I can hog out waste in end grain with back hollowing and/or a scraper just as fast, and resharpen the tool easily and often. YMMV.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

What Gabriel said. And Ron and Reed, too. This is where understanding grain orientation is crucial. It's not a bowl.

Forstner bits get dull and are hard for me to sharpen. I can hog out waste in end grain with a scraper just as fast, and resharpen it easily and often. YMMV.

I can rough hollow a box with a tool faster then I can using a forstner bit! Yes, you are correct with orientation, drilling end grain is harder then side grain.

 

[John Torchick]

What size bit were you using?

1-1/4 inch.

 

[John K Jordan]

The cheap carbide forstners I mentioned haven't gotten dull with years of use, even in very hard wood.

Where a forstner bit shines is for deep holes such as when drilling deep to make salt and pepper mills. Shallow holes such as on a typical lidded box are not a problem with a gouge or even the right scraper.

Cocobolo and dogwood.

Been using this set daily or over 15 years.

JKJ

 

[John K Jordan]

JKJ, the bit kept grabbing some. Not sure if it's the wood which I thing is cherry.
Going to take inventory of my tools- have two spindle gouges, round nose gouge and a square nose gouge. Surely something will work.

But what kind of bit was it? Was it a smooth-sided HSS forstner made to cut smooth holes? (I admit to adding a bit of Renaissance wax to the outside of such bits?

Was the hole deep. Could the grabbing have been caused by chips and sawdust accumulating at the bottom of the how where the teeth were cutting. If so, the compressed air may help.

Unless wildly burled Cherry should not have been the primary reason issue since it's a relatively easy wood to cut.

Oh to have a transportation booth so we could visit each other's shops in an instant!

 

[John Torchick]

Smooth side bit; hole was 1/16" deep.

 

[John K Jordan]

Smooth side bit; hole was 1/16" deep.

Yikes, so shallow! Have no experience with the effect you mentioned. Assuming the bit is good quality, and was held firmly AND the lathe perfectly aligned (check the tailstock-to-headstock alignment?) and the hole was scored lightly at slow speed at first touch, that's a puzzle. Try varying the speed?

I might test that bit on the drill press on a piece of similar wood securely clamped to the table. But unless this was the first time using the bit, it's unlikely to be a defect in the bit.

Can you borrow and test one of the same size in the same situation and see if it's grabby?

JKJ

 

[Jamie Straw]

1-1/4 inch.

Aside from the comments (I agree) that drilling might not be the most efficient way to hollow end grain... when a large hole is needed, starting first with a smaller bit (or perhaps two) is easier on the bits, the w and the lathe wood.

 

[Rob Gabel]

The cheap carbide forstners I mentioned haven't gotten dull with years of use, even in very hard wood.

Where a forstner bit shines is for deep holes such as when drilling deep to make salt and pepper mills. Shallow holes such as on a typical lidded box are not a problem with a gouge or even the right scraper.

Cocobolo and dogwood.
View attachment 85910
Been using this set daily or over 15 years.

JKJ

What "cheap" bits are you using?

 

[John Torchick]

Tried again with a 1/4 inch bit to start. Then went to a round nose scraper. Did fair but would take a lot to hollow this piece. Tried spindle gouge and got horrible catches. Contacting a turner for help this Saturday as he opens his shop to the club members.

 

[john lucas]

Use a Hunter Viceroy. Faster than a scraper and easier to use.. I dont like drilling with firestner style bits on a lathe. It's very hard on the tailstock spindke threads.

 

[John Torchick]

Found sources. #1 or #3? Or do you sell them?

 

[Tom Gall]

Found sources. #1 or #3? Or do you sell them?

??????? What is this related to?
It would be helpful to click on the Reply (or Quote) button in the lower RH corner. This will show the post (as above this one to you) that you are responding to. Or, even by using the (@ so-and-so) would be helpful ... but not as much as the Reply button. Thanks.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

??????? What is this related to?
It would be helpful to click on the Reply (or Quote) button in the lower RH corner. This will show the post (as above this one to you) that you are responding to. Or, even by using the (@ so-and-so) would be helpful ... but not as much as the Reply button. Thanks.

He means he found a Hunter tool dealer and would like to know what cutter size, #1 or #3.

Found sources. #1 or #3? Or do you sell them?

I would go with #3 for the size you pieces you work on. It will give you more mass. But, give Mike Hunter a call, he will be more then happy to talk to you and get you set up.

Handmade Carbide Woodturning Tools - Hunter Tool Systems

Our handmade carbide woodturning tools are unmatched within our industry. Looking to buy anything for woodturning? Hunter Tools is the place.

huntertoolsystems.com

 

[Ron Solfest]

I believe the Viceroy only comes with a #1 cutter in either shaft size. If you’re getting the Badger I’d recommend a #3/#5.

But the advice to give Mike a call is worthwhile. He’s very responsive and helpful.

 

[Ron Solfest]

Tried again with a 1/4 inch bit to start. Then went to a round nose scraper. Did fair but would take a lot to hollow this piece. Tried spindle gouge and got horrible catches. Contacting a turner for help this Saturday as he opens his shop to the club members.

Give the spindle gouge a try again. Start with the handle roughly aligned with the ways so that you’re going perpendicularly in, start at the center of the turning. Close the gouge completely (bevel pointing to 9 o’clock, towards you) - it can’t catch at that orientation. Then slowly open it up (turning clockwise) to be as aggressive as you’d like.

 

[Dean Center]

Tried again with a 1/4 inch bit to start. Then went to a round nose scraper. Did fair but would take a lot to hollow this piece. Tried spindle gouge and got horrible catches. Contacting a turner for help this Saturday as he opens his shop to the club members.

Good plan. This shouldn't be so hard.

 

[John K Jordan]

What "cheap" bits are you using?

I thought I got the two individually from Amazon and see some available but looking just now I can't find the exact ones I got. I think they were $7-8 each but this was some years back. I also have the sets with a bunch of sizes but they don't go up to 2-1/6" or 2-1/8".

But as I mentioned, I no longer use Forstners to make recesses in face grain blanks. For bowls, platters, and other side grain pieces, I always start by holding the blank with a screw chuck. (Glazer, for me)

For end grain such as boxes and vessels, I do what others mentioned, drill a small depth hole, then hollow with a spindle gouge or often with one of the Hunter tools. I have a variety of Hunters with different shaft shapes and cutter sizes and can always find one that does the job. Make things so easy. I think John Lucas has some videos on the Hunter tools and how to use them.

And I mentioned this recently - when making one particular thing, the bell for a handbell ornament, the absolute best way I found to hollow is with a diamond parting tool! Might sound odd but really works well, controllable, precise, quick.





After hollowed to a thin wall thickness, I smooth the inside with either a Hunter tool or a spindle gouge. I cut this one in half to show how I make the wall thick at the center and thin at the rim.



I think I'm scheduled to do a demo on these in Chattanooga this fall.

JKJ