Using 3/4 bowl gouge - 5/8 flute - on a 1HP lathe?

[Tom Rice]

Might be another reason for keeping several tools with identical grinds. For example, I keep six Thompson 3/8” spindle gouges with identical grinds. When one gets dull, I put it in the “to sharpen” pile and put a fresh one in the handle, and keep turning. When all are dull, I stop, set up the jig on the Tormek, and sharpen all six with a 1200 grit CBN wheel. This keeps from interrupting my train of thought at the lathe AND can save time since sitting up the jig can take more time than sharpening one. (And I’m real picky about my spindle gouges.) Of course, I keep the spare sharp gouges in a drawer, tool only/no handle, so they take up very little space.

I do the same for diamond parting tools, some skews, and some other tools, e.g., curved NRS.

JKJ

JKJ
This may be off topic,
I know it was in another thread somewhere, do you polish your tools after running them on the tormek? It would be interesting to know what angles you use for what, being new to this stuff im mostly just fooling with bowl turning, trying to get a grip on grinds and angles and technique for using the tools. Am guessing that spindle turning and detailed finials and such as ive seen in some of your work require much finer grinds than bowl gouges etc, as with anything i suppose theres also way more than one way to skin that cat

 

[John K Jordan]

JKJ
This may be off topic,
I know it was in another thread somewhere, do you polish your tools after running them on the tormek? It would be interesting to know what angles you use for what, being new to this stuff im mostly just fooling with bowl turning, trying to get a grip on grinds and angles and technique for using the tools. Am guessing that spindle turning and detailed finials and such as ive seen in some of your work require much finer grinds than bowl gouges etc, as with anything i suppose theres also way more than one way to skin that cat

I always removed the grinder burr. Some leave and use but the grinder burr will be gone in an instant leaving a rough edge. (I keep a stereo microscope in the shop to look at edges, wood pores, and more)

I removed the grinder burr just after sharpening then use honing compound on the Tormek leather wheels, flat or profiled as appropriate, and gently polish the edge. Some people say the tool off the grinder works better for them but I think much depends on what and how you turn. I rarely turn green wood, seldom turn bowls, turn a lot detailed things. (No offense to the many bowl turners but I find bowls too easy and not much challenge, especially bowls turned from green wood.)

For detailed things I want a smooth polished edge for the finest cut right off the tool with minimal sanding. For example, I kept these and take to spindle demos.The finial from Holly is from polished spindle gouge and skew edges, right off the tools and with ZERO sanding. The other one, from Ebony, has only very light sanding with fine paper, prob 600 or 800, can't remember. (I held these tight in the headstock for turning with #2MT collets and a drawbar but that's just one way.)



Depending on the use, I grind various angles on spindle gouges, detail gouges, skews, conventional scrapers, NRS, roughing gouges, and more. I'd have check. For various angles, I make small templates from plexiglas so I can set the wolverine platform repeatably in an instant. These are some. I make others as needed.



One in use at the grinder preparing to sharpen hand scrapers. (I started painting the back sides of the plastic white for visibility.)
BTW, I've switched to the Mini Wolverine platform for almost all tools. I sharpen all tools by hand except for spindle and bowl gouges.



Yes, there are lots of ways, almost as many ways to sharpen and turn as there are woodturners! And although everyone has opinions, none of the ways are wrong. (Except for grinds that don't provide sharp edges! A couple have come to my shop with turning problems and one look at their tools explained why!!)

As for turning bowls, platters, and other face turnings, I personally found that almost any tool grind would work (if sharp). Some are a little easier in places than others, for example in transition areas and undercuts inside and below the rim

Another option is to become acquainted with the Hunter Carbide tools - never need sharpening. Except in cases where they won't provide the fine datail, I find myself reaching more for a couple - my favorite is the small Hunter Hercules. Can be used as a spindle gouge, a bowl gouge, on platters, bottom transitions, as scrapers, and far more. The cutters are NOT the typical flat-topped carbide- they cut wonderfully and leave no tearout. I like them so much I've bought several for good friends. I have developed one design I call my Small Squarish Dished Platter that I probably do 90% of with the Hercules. That, a bit of negative rake scraping, and some hand scraping and I can often go directly to 600 grit sandpaper. (Sorry, no room in this message for more photos but I've put them in other messages.)

There's one bit of advice repeated over and over by REAL experts, aimed especially at those learning to turn or wanting to up their game: Even if the life goal is to turn bowls, bowls, and bigger bowls, learn spindle turning first. It will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn ANYTHING you want. It doesn't always work in the other direction. I can provide references from books and from some pros and expert turners.

OK, back on topic: I have a at least two 3/4" bowl gouges I bought when I thought that was what I was supposed to do. Don't think I've used one for years. When I did they worked as well on a Jet mini as the PM3524b. Might take finesse instead of force. The Hunter Hercules will do a better job for me. AND, with dry wood, the bowl gouges funnel hot shavings right up the flute onto my hand. Ouch. The Hunter geometry throws the chips off to the side. I like that better.

JKJ

 

[Tom Rice]

I always removed the grinder burr. Some leave and use but the grinder burr will be gone in an instant leaving a rough edge. (I keep a stereo microscope in the shop to look at edges, wood pores, and more)

I removed the grinder burr just after sharpening then use honing compound on the Tormek leather wheels, flat or profiled as appropriate, and gently polish the edge. Some people say the tool off the grinder works better for them but I think much depends on what and how you turn. I rarely turn green wood, seldom turn bowls, turn a lot detailed things. (No offense to the many bowl turners but I find bowls too easy and not much challenge, especially bowls turned from green wood.)

For detailed things I want a smooth polished edge for the finest cut right off the tool with minimal sanding. For example, I kept these and take to spindle demos.The finial from Holly is from polished spindle gouge and skew edges, right off the tools and with ZERO sanding. The other one, from Ebony, has only very light sanding with fine paper, prob 600 or 800, can't remember. (I held these tight in the headstock for turning with #2MT collets and a drawbar but that's just one way.)

View attachment 85284

Depending on the use, I grind various angles on spindle gouges, detail gouges, skews, conventional scrapers, NRS, roughing gouges, and more. I'd have check. For various angles, I make small templates from plexiglas so I can set the wolverine platform repeatably in an instant. These are some. I make others as needed.

View attachment 85285

One in use at the grinder preparing to sharpen hand scrapers. (I started painting the back sides of the plastic white for visibility.)
BTW, I've switched to the Mini Wolverine platform for almost all tools. I sharpen all tools by hand except for spindle and bowl gouges.

View attachment 85286 View attachment 85287

Yes, there are lots of ways, almost as many ways to sharpen and turn as there are woodturners! And although everyone has opinions, none of the ways are wrong. (Except for grinds that don't provide sharp edges! A couple have come to my shop with turning problems and one look at their tools explained why!!)

As for turning bowls, platters, and other face turnings, I personally found that almost any tool grind would work (if sharp). Some are a little easier in places than others, for example in transition areas and undercuts inside and below the rim

Another option is to become acquainted with the Hunter Carbide tools - never need sharpening. Except in cases where they won't provide the fine datail, I find myself reaching more for a couple - my favorite is the small Hunter Hercules. Can be used as a spindle gouge, a bowl gouge, on platters, bottom transitions, as scrapers, and far more. The cutters are NOT the typical flat-topped carbide- they cut wonderfully and leave no tearout. I like them so much I've bought several for good friends. I have developed one design I call my Small Squarish Dished Platter that I probably do 90% of with the Hercules. That, a bit of negative rake scraping, and some hand scraping and I can often go directly to 600 grit sandpaper. (Sorry, no room in this message for more photos but I've put them in other messages.)

There's one bit of advice repeated over and over by REAL experts, aimed especially at those learning to turn or wanting to up their game: Even if the life goal is to turn bowls, bowls, and bigger bowls, learn spindle turning first. It will teach you the fine tool control that will let you turn ANYTHING you want. It doesn't always work in the other direction. I can provide references from books and from some pros and expert turners.

OK, back on topic: I have a at least two 3/4" bowl gouges I bought when I thought that was what I was supposed to do. Don't think I've used one for years. When I did they worked as well on a Jet mini as the PM3524b. Might take finesse instead of force. The Hunter Hercules will do a better job for me. AND, with dry wood, the bowl gouges funnel hot shavings right up the flute onto my hand. Ouch. The Hunter geometry throws the chips off to the side. I like that better.

JKJ

Great info bud, it's nice to be able to get input like this on technical stuff relating to turning, books, articles etc etc, too many out there, but i truly appreciate the input from guys like you who are doing this stuff and have been doing it.

I do like my Robust shanks, am getting the grinds dialed in, almost to a point where i will be able to concentrate on my turning and milling exclusively for a bit so getting lined up is helpful.

Those Hunter tools are kinda nice, will most likely give some of them a try, different tools for different tasks eh,

I did pick up a couple sets of simple wood turning tools a while back, full size and mid size sets, they are pretty simple and do work quite well, can lap the cutters too to tune them up a bit. Great for spindle turning.

Anywho, thank you for the input.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I'll bet if you asked a 100 woodturners what they used to sharpen their tools about 75% would say the Oneway Sharpening System. I used it and I've tried others. But on my very first or second trip to Swat passing Johannes Michelsen's booth I saw his new sharpening system (Vector Grind Fixture) and I bought it (back when they were all aluminum colored). That and Thompson Lathe Tools and Hunter Tool Systems have been without a doubt the three best things that have made my turning where it needed to be. Once I got it set up on the left side of my grinder behind a 180 grit CBN wheel it has never moved. It gives you a great representation of the Hatmaker's grind and I use it on all my gouges. Sticking to one grind is the best thing I found for me.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

For detailed things I want a smooth polished edge for the finest cut right off the tool with minimal sanding. For example, I kept these and take to spindle demos.The finial from Holly is from polished spindle gouge and skew edges, right off the tools and with ZERO sanding. The other one, from Ebony, has only very light sanding with fine paper, prob 600 or 800, can't remember. (I held these tight in the headstock for turning with #2MT collets and a drawbar but that's just one way.)

View attachment 85284




JKJ

At one of Michael's demos, he simply turned an MT2 taper on the blank. Now why didn't I think of that?

 

[John K Jordan]

At one of Michael's demos, he simply turned an MT2 taper on the blank. Now why didn't I think of that?

I didn't see his demo, but if it might be useful to someone I describe turning and using short #2MTs in my PDF doc on thin spindles. Page 5 describes reasons to use them, Appendix 1 on page 20 shows the method I use. (PDF attached below)

I started turning these tapers about 20 years ago when I set up at a bookstore to turn wands for a Harry Potter book release. The mini lathe I used was too short to hold a wand in a chuck so I turned the MTs on a big pile of blanks on a larger lathe in my shop so they would be ready.

At first I made a little brass template for sizing, then found it easier to use cheap calipers (since I got tired of machining templates for people!)




Been using these wood MTs ever since. Some people make the tapers long but I have no reason for that. I've done the short tapers so many hundreds of times I can almost make them with my eyes closed now. (Just kidding!)

A big advantage is you can remove the partially finished piece from the lathe and remount it with perfect registration.

Where tailstock support is not practical, say on a VERY long thin taper, I've held the short wood MTs in the headstock with a 1/4-20 drawbar.

I think I have another demo on these scheduled in Charlotte NC in a couple of months.

JKJ

 

[John K Jordan]

Oh, about the 2mt steel collets - a usually only use them when I know there will be no tailstock support and don't want to use a chuck for some reason. I use them often for turning the long, thin shafts of conductors batons. Like the turned MTs, the piece in progress can be removed and remounted with perfect registration.

They are a bit of pain to use since you first have to turn a fairly precise tenon since there isn't much range in the grip. I keep sizes from 1/8" to 1/2" but only use the 1/2" for wood. All I have need a 3/8x16tpi drawbar.

I sometimes use the smaller ones for metal rods, copper wire, etc. These collets are cheap.

JKJ

 

[Barry Larson]

Oh, about the 2mt steel collets - a usually only use them when I know there will be no tailstock support and don't want to use a chuck for some reason. I use them often for turning the long, thin shafts of conductors batons. Like the turned MTs, the piece in progress can be removed and remounted with perfect registration.

They are a bit of pain to use since you first have to turn a fairly precise tenon since there isn't much range in the grip. I keep sizes from 1/8" to 1/2" but only use the 1/2" for wood. All I have need a 3/8x16tpi drawbar.

I sometimes use the smaller ones for metal rods, copper wire, etc. These collets are cheap.

JKJ

I went out and bought some #2MT collets as soon as I read about them in an earlier thread where Mr. Jordan wrote praises of their utility. To me they are a perfect solution to turning small items whilst keeping digits and knuckles away from rotating metal items with angular edges like chuck jaws. I use the 1/2 and 3/8 inch collets the most, mainly for finials and other small things. I also have some wooden adaptors for my live center I use to lightly support the free end to reduce vibration. Someday I'll turn a small wood doughnut for the lathe spindle to keep my knuckles and digits away from the spindle threads as they can cause skin rupture as well - DAMHIKT!

Best regards,

Barry W. Larson
Calgary, Alberta (but currently in S. Ontario), Canada eh!

 

[John K Jordan]

I also have some wooden adaptors for my live center I use to lightly support the free end to reduce vibration.

Do you use those with friction or in a rotating live center?

I have a number of Oneway live centers and clones. I found If I knocked the point out it had a #0MT and could turn small wooden pieces to support a variety of things.

And (IIRC) with a 3/4"x10 tap I made support pieces that thread on to the live center.

Tip: if you drill and tap a block of wood to fit these centers, put a piece of soft iron or copper wire through the hole in the side to lock the center from turning. Then mount the live center in the headstock and turn the block as needed.

Buy my mostest favoritest and most flexible live center is the nova. It has a short #2MT and comes with a number of attachments that fit. But short wooden 2MTs fit well - I use them a lot to make it easier to support the ends of a variety of turnings. At the top are some of the things supplied that fit the taper. Below are a few of the many attachments I've made for special purposes. (The long one is great to hold a shallow bowl blank by pressure between the wide opened flat ends of chuck jaws and the center (spinning with the blank). Since the live center often gets in the way, the length provides extra room on the tailstock end to cut a recess for holding with the chuck. (I also designed a special tool to make it easier to cut such recesses.)


I like this live center so much I bought a spare for "just in case."

JKJ

 

[Barry Larson]

Do you use those with friction or in a rotating live center?

JKJ

John:
I just bore and thread a block and then turn it to suit the purpose. Depending on how fastidious I am I will sometimes use the live centre and sometimes just a chuck. I have to dig out my old #2MT live centre to use the live center as my new lathe has a #3MT in the tailstock and a #2MT in the headstock.
I haven't tried turning a #0MT to fit the center point hole in the live center, but I do have a set of special centers Oneway used to offer for their live centers which I use from time to time for special purposes.
Since I have gotten back into turning after a long absence I find the myriad of choices for work-holding fascinating. Sometimes it is almost as much fun to figure out how to hold something as it is to turn it. Maybe I should start a thread on this subject.
Cheers.
Barry

 

[John K Jordan]

(oops, started this hours ago and forgot to finish and post)

Sometimes it is almost as much fun to figure out how to hold something as it is to turn it. Maybe I should start a thread on this subject.

If you are a reader you might like Doc Green's book "Fixtures and Chucks" and Fred Holder's book "A Guide to Workholding on the Lathe"

I have more books in the shop with good ideas for holding things but I'm closer to the bed now than the shop!

Hey, here's a small story about one that was particularly tricky to figure out. A walnut frame for an embroidery a young woman did - the girl had embroidered something significant to her for every single day of the pandemic year 2020, divided into monthly wedges. The tricky part was she didn't allow a comfortable space around the outside of the threads and the stretching frame and everything needed to fit perfectly.

My student friend and I tackled it as a challenge - involved chucks, faceplates, plywood disks, screws, double-sided tape and a lot of careful measurements, templates, and crossed fingers to get everything perfect. Had to notch the frame to accommodate the frame-stretching hardware. I had only one piece of walnut board the right size on hand so we had one chance! And we only had a few hours - school was early the next morning.!

The turning student friend was a relatively new turner who had learned from scratch in my shop, but she was the brightest and best I've ever met! I helped figure out how to set it up and hold things and she did all the artistic design, turning and finishing - had never turned anything that large a diameter. It took a few hours but she aced it! The steel embroidery frame was completely hidden and no embroidery threads were covered. Her embroidery friend was thrilled!



JKJ

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Do you not like the bottom feeder grind?

No I prefer a swept back grind.