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What size bowl gouges do you have/use

hockenbery

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I misunderstood at first. This setup can be use in place of the Ellsworth jig or with it, depending

Excellent, thanks for sharing this.
confusing!!!

If you use the Ellsworth jig. It works with the pivot point 4” below the center of wheel and 7” in front of the wheel

depending on the setup of your woulverine, The pocket of your woulverine will be 5.5“ Or so below the center of the wheel - too low for the Ellsworth Jig.
 
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confusing!!!

If you use the Ellsworth jig. It works with the pivot point 4” below the center of wheel and 7” in front of the wheel

depending on the setup of your woulverine, The pocket of your woulverine will be 5.5“ Or so below the center of the wheel - too low for the Ellsworth Jig.
I can be slow, at times

Thanks for clarifying. Makes more sense now.
 
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I can be slow, at times

Thanks for clarifying. Makes more sense now.
Let me ask some questions to gain some more understanding. Let me know if I should be starting a new thread or not.

1. What does the Ellsworth jig effectively do, and, that you can't get using the Wolverine & Varigrind 1?
2. What does the increased height above the V-arm (using a riser block) specifically do?

I ask because I want to learn what results to expect, but as important: how the adjustments actually work & what they do individually. This may allow me to build & experiment further moving forward.
 

hockenbery

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Let me ask some questions to gain some more understanding. Let me know if I should be starting a new thread or not.

1. What does the Ellsworth jig effectively do, and, that you can't get using the Wolverine & Varigrind 1?
2. What does the increased height above the V-arm (using a riser block) specifically do?

I ask because I want to learn what results to expect, but as important: how the adjustments actually work & what they do individually. This may allow me to build & experiment further moving forward.
The Ellsworth jig makes it easy to reproduce the Ellsworth grind.
the geometry of the Ellsworth jig is based on the pivot point being 7” out from the front of the wheel and 4” down from the center of the wheel. The block in the vee arm gives you that 4” down from the center of the wheel.

that said you can get close to the Ellsworth grind with the varigrind and the vee pocket.

in classes at Campbell or Arrowmont when I assisted or taught At Campbell - a varigrind would be set up to the grind on my gouge using a trial and error method. It would be close to the Ellsworth grind. It works and the students could reproduce it at home.
grinds just need to be close to work.

I use the Ellsworth jig but it is likely more psychological than physiological.
 
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So sorry to do geometry... but you can get the same offset from the grinding wheel without doing exactly 7 out and 4 down. As long as you have the point of the V at around 11.7" from the center axle of the wheel, the geometry between that V and the surface of the grinding wheel works out the same.

View attachment 38344
Except, if what I saw of the ellsworth jig , seems to me you need to also factor in the apex of the angle created between the jig and tool which changes the effective angle of the "secondary" pivot - they differ between the ellsworth jig and the vari-grind.. there's more to it than just the angle from V pivot point and the center of wheel... which I guess is what makes the slight difference in the profile between using the ellsworth vs the vari-grind.. I'm thinking to see if I can find some sort of dimensions to duplicate an ellsworth jig from, and see just how much difference there is (assuming my home made vari-grind is anywhere near the same dimensions as a real vari-grind) All this thread has done for me is got me curious to see if I can duplicate an ellsworth grind any better than what I do now (Mine seems to cut fine, but I'll always wonder if I could make it better!)
 

Dave Landers

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Except, if what I saw of the ellsworth jig , seems to me you need to also factor in the apex of the angle created between the jig and tool

Dave, I believe you are right, but I also believe that many paths lead to the same destination.
For me, it seems easier to find the 7 and 4 on my Lufkin folding rule

Yes, true. This is not the only dimension needed and 7+4 is certainly an easy way to the right distance.

I was just trying to note that you don't have to rebuild your entire wolverine jig setup if your V doesn't happen to be 4" below the wheel center.
 
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For those of you with multiple bowl gouges in the same size, how do you track how they are each set up? Do you mark them somehow, or do you just simply turn enough to remember how each is set up?
I keep a sharpening diary in a small spiral notebook. One page for each tool and one line for the parameters (stickout, nose angle, leg position, etc.). If I try something new I start a new line. You could use a bigger notebook and have space for comments, too.

I should note that I use Oneway double ended gouges so there is no place for a piece of blue tape. I haven't settled on one grind, so I put two different edges on each tool. I label the tool with A&B sides (written with a Sharpie in the flute where it won't rub off). And when I change settings I don't loose the old information if I toss the old tape.
 
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Through this thread I learned that a parabolic flute is ideal for an Ellsworth grind.
Question: which flute types are ideal for the 40/40 grind? Parabolic, "V", or "U"?
Is there one considered best or some it doesn't work on?
 
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The U flute does not work for the 40/40 grind, but makes a great bottom of bowl gouge. The Thompson and D Way gouges which are more V shaped work well also, as do the more open Lyle Jaimeson gouges do, not sure about the Jimmy Clewes gouges. The old Glaser V gouges I didn't like because they were too much of a V. I do need some parabolic gouges.... The main difference between the shape on the 40/40 grind is that the Parabolic tends to have a slight arc to the wing, and the V is more straight. Some times the nose can get rather pointy. You can fix that by spending a bit more time on the nose to round it. Looking at Mike Mahoney's wood beater gouge design, it looked rather pointy to me.

Now, I am trying to figure if the swept back grind will work on a U shaped or half round flute shape....

robo hippy
 
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Great info, guys.

I had an opportunity to (begin to) learn the push cut & some other things from a club member using a 40/40 (Thompson V) gouge this past weekend.

I recently picked up a 5/8 Jaimeson/Thompson parabolic gouge to put an Ellsworth grind on, but am looking forward to adding another gouge to continue learning the 40/40 and see what I like and continue to learn.

My understanding is the D-Way gouges are "U" shaped. Thompson sells "V and "U". The only quality, unhandled "parabolic" I've found is the Jaimeson, which is Thompson, anyway.

So it comes down to "V" vs "parabolic".

It would have to be a "V" if one were to go w/ a 1/2" gouge. I'm not looking for any more 1/2s at the moment, but come to think of it I wouldn't know how to find a quality, unhandled parabolic gouge in 1/2"
 
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@Allen Mattsen - don’t limit yourself to only unhandled tools. Tool handles are fairly easy to remove. Put the steel in padded vice jaws (wood/leather) and grab the handle big spot with a strap wrench. If it wont turn add a bit of heat with a torch to the steel near the ferrule. Keep testing till it breaks loose.

Crown has both M42 and PM bowl gouges, and they are parabolic (crown uses flute width, so a listed 1/2” is 5/8” shaft). I consider either steel a quality tool. Ellsworth’s signature gouge is the 1/2” (5/8” shaft) PM gouge. I have the 1/2” M42 Razor series, very good gouge. If you are one to resharpen for finish cuts, it holds an edge about as well as a Thompson. I replaced the handle with my own shop made wooden handle.
 
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The Thompson tools are not parabolic. I believe the Jamieson ones made by Doug are a more open V and not a parabolic. I have one laying around the shop, but don't know where.... Not sure about the Jimmy Clewes gouges. The D Way flute is very similar to the Thompson. The Carter and Son ones that he makes for Mike Mahoney are parabolic. The Robust gouges are parabolic. The Glenn Lucas gouges are parabolic, and now he uses M42HSS. The Stuart Batty gouges are parabolic. Not sure if Stuart is making them any more.

I have heard debate about the M42 and V10 edge holding abilities. As near as I can tell, there is no difference.

robo hippy
 
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The Thompson tools are not parabolic. I believe the Jamieson ones made by Doug are a more open V and not a parabolic.

I have to disagree with you on this one, Robo. The gouge Doug T makes for Lyle ( only available on Lyle’s site) is parabolic. The flute shape is the same as the Crown parabolic I have (all Crown bowl gouges are parabolic, and the same flute as the Ellsworth signature gouge they make).
 
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Unless Doug Thompson has changed milling cutter configuration in the last couple of years, the Jamieson Gouge is a straight sided V with a slightly larger nose radius and the flute is milled a little deeper than his normal V gouges. I do not believe that this generates a Parabola or parabolic shaped flute. I do have Lyle's Gouge made by Doug and in defense of the parabolic statement the arched wing grind does resemble a parabolic shaped cutting surface (not flute shape) when viewed cutting end view.
 
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Kent, that is a Oneway Bowl gouge. It comes from Oneway with a more traditional grind, which I like, but I have a few that I've swept back a bit like this one.
I wonder if the V, U or parabolic preference is dependent on what one starts with. I've tried a V, but never felt the need to go buy one.
As far as a Jamieson bowl gouge, here is a cut & paste from his website, not sure when he made the change.

FLUTE
This has a better flute configuration—Not a “V”, not a “U” shape—It is 12 inches long with a 7 inch long flute —It has a wider, parabolic flute shape than any other gouge made today—The flute change translates into easier, safer, better control.
 
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I went and looked at my Jamieson gouge, and the sides are straight, and the nose is more rounded than the standard gouges from Doug. A parabolic shape will have a curve all the way up the wings. I remember hearing Doug comment that if you grind with a slight arc to the wing, and then view head on, the gouge 'appears' to be parabolic in shape. It is not. Not sure that it really matters since both perform well.

robo hippy
 
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