Yet... another CBN question...

[Manny Yabar]

Hello friends,
I have been searching in the forums on recomendations on where to buy CBN wheels.... any place you can recommend.. a brand name you can suggest? Amazon has a bunch , could you share a link?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

D-Way.

D-Way Tools - Exceptional Quality Wood Turning Tools

Finely crafted wood turning tools invented by an internationally renowned woodturner. D-Way tools specializes in bowl gouges, spindle gouges, beading tools, negative rake scrapers, parting tools and CBN wheels. Each tool is inspected and sharpened before shipment - ready to use right out of the...

d-waytools.com

 

[Donna Banfield]

I second D-Way. I replaced a 12-year old CBN wheel that was manufactured in Austria. No longer available here. I went with a Rikon 8" CBN 180 grit (same grit as previous wheel). After only 6 months, I see a definite difference in the material in the center of the wheel - which gets the most use - compared to the outer edges. I put a straight edge perpendicular to the wheel, and there is a 'divot' in the center. If this wheel lasts me to the end of the year, I would be surprised.

Now, given that I do this full time, and likely turn more than many on this forum, I still expected a longer life from this wheel. I'm not turning every single day, because I spend a lot of time on my surface embellishments. I average 2-3 days turning out of every 7. I will be getting a D-Way.

 

[Greg Carles]

D-Way Tools- I have the 120 Grit, I believe which replaced the 80 Grit they used to sell. Absolutely can't go wrong.
I believe these are made in Ukraine.

 

[robo hippy]

I have mostly D Way. I do have one from Woodturner's Wonders, a 1000 grit from when Ken Rizza used to own the business. Everybody is now selling CBN wheels. I don't know if there are any huge differences between them or not. I think Cindy Drozda used to sell the ones that were made in Austria, but not sure if she still does. For one wheel, get a 180 grit. For a second wheel, get a 600 grit.

robo hippy

 

[hughie]

D-way, 140 and 600 grit

 

[john lucas]

I used Dway and woodturnerswonders. I now have an Amazon wheel I'm trying out. The first one I got from them had a shaft hole that was a hair undersized. Had to send it back. Theone I have now seems OK but I've only been using it about 3 months. Like Donna I turn daily.

 

[Aaron Sluis]

I've been happy with UF Sharp on Amazon. 600 and 80 grit, around two "5/8 bowl gouges" worth of use between them. Can't say I notice any difference from when they were new. Not as wide as the dway, but nearly 1/3rd the price.

The lighter wheels are worth it unless you have a powerful grinder.

FWIW I'd probably get a 60 grit for my coarse wheel, good for a nasty scraper burr and reshaping.

 

[John K Jordan]

The grits you get are a matter of opinion, what you grind, AND how you like your tools. I use 60 and 600 grit 8" CBN wheels on a bench grinder - the coarse to reshape tools and the 600 to sharpen almost all tools. I also keep a 10" 1200 grit wheel on a very slow speed Tormek that I use for spindle gouges - I want my spindle gouges to be razor sharp.

Whatever grits you get they should last forever if not abused. I like to put a little honing compound on the 1200 grit before sharpening.

Also, there are different widths, corners, and sides to consider.
After trying several I only buy
- wide wheels
- square corners (not radiused)
- 1" of grid down both sides from the corner.

The narrower wheels don't give enough width to do easily grind some gouge wings with a jig.

The radiused edges are a waste of good wheel width (cut about 1/2" off the useful width), made primarily to sharpen rounded tip hollowing bits permanently mounted on the ends of rods (or at least that's what I was told, and it made sense)

The square corners and the 1" of the flat sides make it easier to grind certain custom tools.
This I made using the corners and side grit - it allows me to cut a chuck recess on one side of a face-oriented blank when the tailstock is otherwise in the way.
I use the flats more than I thought I would.



JKJ

 

[Pete Boa]

For durability and life span. In general there's two basic methods of producing CBN wheels. Electroplating, or a ceramic/vitrified matrix fired in a kiln. The electroplated are supposedly only a single layer and can't be dressed, the ceramic can be. I'd think a good tool supplier would specify which type there CBN wheels are. The electroplating deposition does seem recommended when grinding very hard cutting tool materials. So my best guess would be Donna's Ryobi wheel might be the ceramic type? Like John, I also have a Tormek, and would bet a lot that the far slower rpm and wet grinding would vastly increase wheel life.

 

[Tim Dunbar]

D-Way

 

[robo hippy]

I may have been the first woodturner to have CBN wheels. I called Norton to ask about better grinding wheels since the one I had was worn down too small in about 6 months. They told me of a place locally that would make CBN wheels for me and told me I wanted CBN instead of diamond. It was Burton Saw. They bonded about 3/16 inch of a "matrix" onto an aluminum hub. It did work nicely, but the wheels would go out of round and needed to be taken back to the maker to have them trued up again. Woodcraft did have a 1 inch wide diamond wheel which was the same thing for a while, but discontinued it. Then, I think it was the Optigrind wheel from Austria that came out next, then D Way, and a host of others. I do prefer the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels. The problem I had with the 1 inch wheels was running off the side of the wheel when sharpening and putting a big divot into the wing of my gouges. Never did that with the wide wheels. Can't remember when I got that first set of wheels.

robo hippy

 

[Manny Yabar]

I may have been the first woodturner to have CBN wheels. I called Norton to ask about better grinding wheels since the one I had was worn down too small in about 6 months. They told me of a place locally that would make CBN wheels for me and told me I wanted CBN instead of diamond. It was Burton Saw. They bonded about 3/16 inch of a "matrix" onto an aluminum hub. It did work nicely, but the wheels would go out of round and needed to be taken back to the maker to have them trued up again. Woodcraft did have a 1 inch wide diamond wheel which was the same thing for a while, but discontinued it. Then, I think it was the Optigrind wheel from Austria that came out next, then D Way, and a host of others. I do prefer the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels. The problem I had with the 1 inch wheels was running off the side of the wheel when sharpening and putting a big divot into the wing of my gouges. Never did that with the wide wheels. Can't remember when I got that first set of wheels.

robo hippy

thank you, where do you buy them?

 

[John K Jordan]

After being one of the last holdouts when CBN started to catch on with woodturners, I've bought and used numerous wheels.

I bought them all from Ken Rizza since he had good prices, quality wheels, and would special order wheels in grits he didn't keep in stock. They are all electro plated aluminum wheels (kinder than heavy steel to lower powered bench grinders), and as I mentioned I always get the wide wheels, square corners, 1" of grit down the sides, with 5/8" arbor hole, and use the spherical washers whether I need them or not.. I wouldn't hesitate to order from the new owners of Woodturners Wonders again if I wanted another wheel as long as Ken is still advising and maybe twisting arms if needed.

I've given away several wheels as I refined my grit preferences, one with radiused edges, and to some friends - a bench grinder with a CBN wheel attached makes a nice present for a new woodturner. There's no reason to store a shelf full of wheels I'll never use again!

Note that even aluminum wheels take a long time to spin down on bench grinders without built-in brakes. I use a stick, about 1/2" x 1.5" x 8", and stop the wheel by holding the stick on the side of the wheel just below the wide rim. I don't like a wheel spinning silently when I'm moving around.

JKJ

 

[Dean Center]

As a rule of thumb for new turners, I would suggest "Get your tools and supplies any place BUT Amazon." Certainly, Amazon and it's related vendors can be a source for tools and supplies, when you know what you're looking for and how to tell what's actually a good product from a reliable seller, but for folks starting out, not the best choice, IMHO.

There are a number of good, often small, vendors in the woodturning world who will generally provide good products and good service. Craftsupplies and Packard are our 'one stop shopping' places for a wide array of needs. Many of the others can be found in the back of the American Woodturner, or by asking on here as the OP did.

 

[robo hippy]

Manny, I buy mine from D Way. They are a bit more expensive than the Woodturner's Wonders. I do like the 1 1/2 inch wide wheels. You can order on line.

As for Amazon, I NEVER shop there. Buy local!

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

... I buy mine from D Way. ... Buy local!

Is D Way local to you, with a walk-in store? I thought they were phone/email/web.
The only thing I've ever bought from them was a set of beading tools- seem fine.

JKJ

 

[Bill Blasic]

Myself I can't understand how one could wear out a CBN wheel if you were just sharpening your tools and not reshaping. If a tool in my shop needs reshaping I use a white wheel for doing that. I just got 2 new 1/2" V's from Doug Thompson and I will change his grind to the grind of the Vector Grind by using my extra plate and roughing in the tools on the white wheel. I seriously doubt that I will ever completely use up a Thompson tool, I've been using them for twenty years and I have used less than an 2" of my 20 year old 5/8 V. The Vector grind fixture and the 180 CBN wheel allow me to just remove thousands of an inch to resharpen my tools.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, since D Way is in the NW, I do see Jimmy, or is it Jimmie.... He does come to the Oregon Woodturning Symposium, and has demoed at our club a few times. I would guess that if you were in the neighborhood and stopped by, he would sell you stuff.

As for durability, one comment from Stuart Batty that I agree with is that the life of a CBN wheel for a production turner is about 5 years. I NEVER sharpen carbide on my CBN wheels, that is what diamond is made for. I did catch a "German Science Guy" video about there being a synthetic product that is harder than diamond. Wondering what the uses could be....

robo hippy

 

[Dean Center]

I did catch a "German Science Guy" video about there being a synthetic product that is harder than diamond. Wondering what the uses could be....
robo hippy

Why, sharpening diamonds, of course.

 

[Manny Yabar]

After being one of the last holdouts when CBN started to catch on with woodturners, I've bought and used numerous wheels.

I bought them all from Ken Rizza since he had good prices, quality wheels, and would special order wheels in grits he didn't keep in stock. They are all electro plated aluminum wheels (kinder than heavy steel to lower powered bench grinders), and as I mentioned I always get the wide wheels, square corners, 1" of grit down the sides, with 5/8" arbor hole, and use the spherical washers whether I need them or not.. I wouldn't hesitate to order from the new owners of Woodturners Wonders again if I wanted another wheel as long as Ken is still advising and maybe twisting arms if needed.

I've given away several wheels as I refined my grit preferences, one with radiused edges, and to some friends - a bench grinder with a CBN wheel attached makes a nice present for a new woodturner. There's no reason to store a shelf full of wheels I'll never use again!

Note that even aluminum wheels take a long time to spin down on bench grinders without built-in breaks. I use a stick, about 1/2" x 1.5" x 8" and stop the wheel by holding the stick on the side of the wheel just below the wide rim. I don't like a wheel spinning silently when I'm moving around.

JKJ

I have been reading about CBN wheel, and the electro plated wheels have a thin layer of material, while the resin bond much thicker...I don't know how lond the electro plated ones last (of course it depends how much you use it, but in comparison?)

 

[John K Jordan]

I have been reading about CBN wheel, and the electro plated wheels have a thin layer of material, while the resin bond much thicker...I don't know how lond the electro plated ones last (of course it depends how much you use it, but in comparison?)

I've never used a matrix CBN (have a narrow matrix diamond wheel which is not good for lathe tools) but unlike the single layer electroplated CBN, matrix tools may need regular dressing to keep them flat. The single layer CBN wheels last almost forever if not abused (don't use a LOT of force, don't grind carbide, I've had a number of aluminum CBN and never wore one out with years of use, just gave them away when I went to different grits. One 600 grit 8: wheel did have a scar from when someone gouged the surface in a spot (like you might get a catch in wood if you stick the tool directly into the wood. I bought a new one from Ken on a whim and gave the old one to someone who reported it worked well for him.

Also, it's not a good idea to grind soft metals like aluminum on a CBN wheel which will gum up the wheel, but some report that sharpening HSS tools for a while will "clean" the wheel.

Note that Tormek and others sell single layer electroplated diamond wheels but these are not recommeneded for high speed grinding of steel or HSS. I understand the high speeds can generate a lot of heat (on the molecular level) causing the carbon in the steel to react unfavorably with the carbon in the diamonds and degrade them. Single-layer diamond on the very low speed Tomek no problem. I use a 1200 grit CBN on a Tormek for my spindle gouges.

JKJ

 

[Pete Boa]

That's 100% right and exactly what happens with high grinding wheel rotational speeds John. It's the very high heat created at those speeds and with high speed steels that ruin the diamond coating. Due to the carbon content in the cutting tool and that high heat, the pieces of diamond start breaking down very quickly. CBN doesn't have the same issues with high carbon metals. It can grind carbide, but a diamond wheel is better in every way for that. For some of my metal cutting tools, I have one of the green silicon carbide wheels for my high rpm 8" bench grinder. But at best it's only good enough for rough shaping a brazed carbide tipped tool into shape with the approximate relief and clearance angles. But the wheels surface gets worn and breaks down quite quickly. And the tool shaping is quite slow if a fair amount has to be removed. So as I said, those silicon carbide wheels are a roughing wheel.

For the metal cutting industry, a few slow speed carbide lapping tools were available. The Accu-Finish probably the best known. They only needed a spritz of water on the wheel once in awhile. But new ,they were excessively high priced for my home shop. Even used there still usually expensive unless you get very lucky. Instead I did end up buying a Tormek, and while they seem to mostly ignore metal cutting tools, it can work well to put the proper lapped finish on the tool. There's slight variances between the grades of high speed steel and carbide between wood working cutting tools and metal cutting, but overall the same high or slow speed wheels work just as well. The design has changed or there not available any more, but years ago I bought an Eze-Lap and I think it's a 3" x 9" single sided 1200 grit diamond lapping bench block for final finishing. However wood turning probably involves far more tool touch ups with some woods than most common metals. Building a close working replica of one of the Holtzapffel or Evans goniostat's is on my list at some point.

Just in case some may not know, high speed dry grinding of any carbide in an enclosed area is a real bad idea for your health and lungs unless you've also got a good dust collection system. It's mostly caused by the binder materials used during the carbide sintering process.

And for a bit of trivia, with some of the usual or exotic non ferrous metals, diamond tipped cutting inserts aren't uncommon today. I'd be sitting down if you check the price per insert though. Since replaceable tip carbide wood turning tools seem to be growing in popularity, one thing that might be worth trying are what's known as factory lapped carbide tips, a bit more cost of course. There mostly designed for aluminum turning and provide much better surface finishes. There also not available for all sizes and insert shapes. I'm so far guessing only, but logically, the same result might be true while turning wood?

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I didn't read all the comments, but I will point out that the UFSharp CBN on Amazon is $80-100 and the D-Ways are $240. I have two of the UFSharp wheels and they run true. I don't see why I would spend $140 MORE PER WHEEL for the D-Ways.

 

[Manny Yabar]

I used Dway and woodturnerswonders. I now have an Amazon wheel I'm trying out. The first one I got from them had a shaft hole that was a hair undersized. Had to send it back. Theone I have now seems OK but I've only been using it about 3 months. Like Donna I turn daily.

Hello John, how is that wheel working for you ? can you share a link?

 

[Jamie Straw]

Well, since D Way is in the NW, I do see Jimmy, or is it Jimmie....

I NEVER sharpen carbide on my CBN wheels, that is what diamond is made for.

robo hippy

Yes, It's Jimmie. His shop's about 30 minutes from mine, visits are always educational - not just about tools but about turning itself, his skills are exquisite and historical knowledge amazing. I don't mind paying a premium because I know that quality is his top priority. He switched from Chinese manufacturer to Ukraine when, after several months of decreasing quality from his original supplier, he tested some wheels from Ukraine. Said they were head-and-shoulders better. He offers two "weights" of wheels, the light ones being comparable to the original, the heavy with two layers of CBN. Note the new grit recommendations for course vs. fine.

The NEXT GENERATION of CBN WHEELS!! D-WAY TOOLS introduced the first CBN Wheels to the woodturning community at the 25th Annual AAW Symposium - now are very excited to share our latest sharpening innovation. We set the original standard of 80 grit & 180 grit for basic woodturning sharpening, however these wheels are so efficient that we have adjusted the recommendations to 120 grit for shaping and aggressive burrs & 220 grit for general sharpening on a wide variety of wood turning tools.

The New Standard in CBN material and grit wear...Premier Series Wheels have been recently developed and thoroughly tested in our production environment. We have found that the extra weight makes it run true and eliminates harmonic vibrations. Two Full Layers of a new and highly effective form of CBN material are applied and permanently bonded with a multi-phased electroplating process. The wheel edge features a 1/16" radius to facilitate over the edge grinding. On this heavy weight version, the CBN material also wraps down 1" on each side. All wheels are balanced with no need for bushings. Overall results are a smooth operating wheel with the highest CBN particle concentration possible. It will provide exceptional results in your sharpening and grinding activities.

 

[Manny Yabar]

So what exactly is the new standard on CBN wheels?

 

[Jamie Straw]

So what exactly is the new standard on CBN wheels?

I think he's positing the heavy version sets a new standard, especially with the quality and consistency of production. The weight, double layer of CBN, perfect balance, 1/16" radius (which he specifically requested for this version). Also, if you read the website description: "new and highly effective form of CBN" and "highest CBN particle concentration possible."
He and his employee grind hundreds of tools every...month? Or two? The new heavy wheels seem to have been a godsend. Even the light version has been noticeably better than the original made-in-China model. I noticed earlier that Robo Hippy said all CBN wheels are balanced at the factory - not my experience. The first one I bought, a well-recognized brand that some of you own - was not balanced. The D-Way replacement (10 years ago) made me realize the difference.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Hello John, how is that wheel working for you ? can you share a link?

CBN Grinding Wheels| D-Way Tools

We have been using CBN grinding wheels for sharpening our turning tools for years and have found them to be a real asset. The wheels are factory balanced, which makes the grinders run very smooth. The grinding wheels have 1-1/2" face to use, they don't need any dressing therefore you don't have...

d-waytools.com

 

[Bill Blasic]

My first CBN wheel was bought many years before the 25th Anniversary AAW Symposium. Came from Austria (a man from there used to come to the AAW Symposiums). It is fairly heavy and balanced and I've been using it for 15 years or so and it still looks brand new. It only sharpens my gouges. Any other Thompson tool is sharpened on the other side of the grinder that has an 80 grit CBN wheel.

 

[robo hippy]

There are so many CBN wheels on the market now. I still get e mails from China wanting to make me CBN wheels.... Never wanted to sell them, and I will stick with what works for me. I am not sure if I like the new CBN wheels from Ukraine that Jimmie is carrying. One knife sharpening channel I watch, iSharpen, said he was contacted by that business and he didn't like CBN, but now he has some. He did have some "resin bonded" diamond wheels made for his Tormek. The main one he used glazed over and wouldn't cut any more. The problem with the resin bonded wheels that I had was that they would go out of round and I had to take them back to the maker who was local, and they put them on a high speed axle, and used a very hard aluminum oxide to true the wheels up again. Not sure if he could have that done where he is. He now carries his own brand of CBN wheels. First wheel he got was used and he said all of the plating came off almost instantly. I told him he got a bad wheel. I guess he doesn't want to carry the Tormek diamond wheels. I do think they could make a coarser wheel personally, I have heard that you don't want any ammonia based cleaners for the wheels because that can mess with the bonding/nickel plating. Oh, the iSharpen guy strops on kangaroo tail with no compounds. He slices cigarette rolling papers to demonstrate how sharp his knives

robo hippy

 

[Ken Cardinal]

Here’s a vote for Cuttermasters.

 

[John K Jordan]

I also have a Tormek, and would bet a lot that the far slower rpm and wet grinding would vastly increase wheel life.

I don't use water on the 1200 grit CBN Tormek wheel. The wheel is aluminum and immersing in the water tray could cause corrosion over time. I do dribble on a little Trend liquid lapping compound.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

Tormek does make a solution specifically for their diamond wheels which will prevent the rusting of the metal dust on their diamond wheels My bottle of it just says "anti corrosion concentrate".

robo hippy

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have a 1000 grit CBN thanks to the generosity of a fine gentleman here and I do not use water. I use it on knives and it puts an evil edge on them.

 

[John K Jordan]

I have a 1000 grit CBN thanks to the generosity of a fine gentleman here and I do not use water. I use it on knives and it puts an evil edge on them.

When I wanted a 1200 grit CBN for the Tormek it had to be special ordered - not normally kept in stock. Ken said another guy ordered one to sharpen scalpels. I use it only for my spindle gouges. I'm perhaps obsessively particular about my spindle gouges. I polish the cutting edges too.

But oh the surface! I've shown this photo before but the finial on the top is straight off the tool, no sanding. (The one from ebony had some fine sanding.)



JKJ

 

[Pete Boa]

The results seem to say everything John , so I wouldn't say your obsessive at all. The books about OT mention ultra sharp and basically a mirror finish on the cutting tools faces. To quote one of the authors in one of my books about machining. "A roughly finished cutting tool can not produce a fine finish on the work piece".

 

[Jamie Straw]

View attachment 85881

JKJ

What kind of mandrel are you using there, John? One of our members is exploring lace bobbins, that mandrel might help!

 

[John K Jordan]

What kind of mandrel are you using there, John? One of our members is exploring lace bobbins, that mandrel might help!

Those are #2MT collets. They have a 3/8x16 thread for a drawbar to pull it tight into the headstock. (Drawbar is trivial to make.)
Sets are cheap - I have a couple of sets with collets from 1/8" up to 1/2". I think 1/2" is the largest you can get with a #2MT. A complete set is cheap from Little Machine Shop or I think from Amazon.

EDIT: I see this cheap set on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/waltyotur-Morse-Collet-Machining-Turning/dp/B0B9G5QT2M

They hold extremely well with a 12" tenon - I used them on conductor batons, hair sticks, and finials like this, especially for things that can't be supported by the tailstock through the entire turning. If I can hold things like wands with by leaving a "button" on the tailstock end to hold with a 1/2" steb center, I instead turn a short #2MT on one end and insert it into the headstock. That's the way I've made nearly all the 100s of wands I've turned and longer things, such as these: over 24" long, tapered from 1/2" own to maybe 1/16". One is walnut, the other shelving pine from home depot. (I take these to show at thin spindle demos.)

I've added a handle to one, the other still has the short #2MT turned on one end.


(In my bag of tricks I have several other ways to hold such things if anyone wants to know.)

I haven't made any lace bobbins - I wonder if they might be kind of like turning hairsticks - very popular with some people with long hair. I took these to a friend in Italy.



I love turning thin spindles. Made a number of drop spindles for spinning alpaca fiber. Quite popular as gifts, especially when accompanied by an alpaca fleece!



JKJ

 

[Tom Rice]

Those are #2MT collets. They have a 3/8x16 thread for a drawbar to pull it tight into the headstock. (Drawbar is trivial to make.)
Sets are cheap - I have a couple of sets with collets from 1/8" up to 1/2". I think 1/2" is the largest you can get with a #2MT. A complete set is cheap from Little Machine Shop or I think from Amazon.

EDIT: I see this cheap set on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/waltyotur-Morse-Collet-Machining-Turning/dp/B0B9G5QT2M

They hold extremely well with a 12" tenon - I used them on conductor batons, hair sticks, and finials like this, especially for things that can't be supported by the tailstock through the entire turning. If I can hold things like wands with by leaving a "button" on the tailstock end to hold with a 1/2" steb center, I instead turn a short #2MT on one end and insert it into the headstock. That's the way I've made nearly all the 100s of wands I've turned and longer things, such as these: over 24" long, tapered from 1/2" own to maybe 1/16". One is walnut, the other shelving pine from home depot. (I take these to show at thin spindle demos.)

I've added a handle to one, the other still has the short #2MT turned on one end.
View attachment 85911

(In my bag of tricks I have several other ways to hold such things if anyone wants to know.)

I haven't made any lace bobbins - I wonder if they might be kind of like turning hairsticks - very popular with some people with long hair. I took these to a friend in Italy.

View attachment 85912

I love turning thin spindles. Made a number of drop spindles for spinning alpaca fiber. Quite popular as gifts, especially when accompanied by an alpaca fleece!

View attachment 85913

JKJ

JKJ
How in the world do you keep those conductor batons steady to turn them?
Im sure you posted it before but damn bud, those are slim, pretty cool stuff there.