Bottom Bowl Gouge?

[Tom Albrecht]

Does anybody have a photo to share of what is called a "Bottom Bowl Gouge"? Doug Thompson has one listed on his website, but no photo. He described it to me on the phone, but for me, a picture is worth more than words. Thompson said it is ground like a spindle roughing gouge, and that Ashley Harwood and Stuart Batty are fond of them, but I can't picture it.

 

[odie]

Likely very similar to the Mahoney "bottom feeder"......it's similar to the style of grind on the roughing gouge.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Thanks Odie--- that looks wierd to me. If you caught one of those flute tips you'd tear the bowl right off the lathe.

 

[odie]

Thanks Odie--- that looks wierd to me. If you caught one of those flute tips you'd tear the bowl right off the lathe.

Tom.....

Ya......I did experiment with that style of grind on the interior bottom of bowls for awhile. It was intended as a push cut, I believe. Since then, I've evolved to a little more swept back wings and transitioning to a pull cut as you traverse "the corner". If you've got a mind to, the shape is worth checking out.......just because it didn't work out as well as I'd have liked, doesn't mean it won't for other turner's purposes. In any case, whatever grind you get from the manufacturer is easily modified, or changed to your liking.

ko

 

[Dave Delo]

Tom,
I just nick those top 2 points with the grinding wheel to blunt the corners a tad. Don't believe that necessary, just how I do it. Mine are ground at 75 degrees, others do it a little less angle and some do it a little steeper.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Tom, the tool is designed for a push cut as Odie said and it's true that you wouldn't want to get close to the corners. Basically use the tool to cut in a bevel gliding fashion near the bottom of the flute. It probably wouldn't hurt to knock the heel off the bevel so that the wood isn't being burnished. In addition to dulling the sharp corners as Dave does, you could also sweep the sides back a bit more. I just use one of my gouges that has 3/4" swept back wings and put a more blunt nose angle on it.

 

[John Torchick]

I'll be honest- some of the terminology was not real clear to me as a new guy on the lathe. However, I did do a Bing search for push cut and found a video by Lyle Jamieson. I watched a couple o f minutes and will go back and watch the whole video as I have saved it as a Bookmark. Enjoy.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...26C5E719A18CB3756A0326C5E719A18CB37&FORM=VIRE

 

[hockenbery]

I'll be honest- some of the terminology was not real clear to me as a new guy on the lathe. However, I did do a Bing search for push cut and found a video by Lyle Jamieson.

Lyle has quite a few excellent videos. Here is close up of a bevel riding push cut.

 

[Raul McCai]

Knock the corners off. What a cool suggestion. I think I will try that, Mine has given me issues.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

View attachment 21640

Lyle has quite a few excellent videos. Here is close up of a bevel riding push cut.

Thanks Al, but that is not the "Bottom Gouge" I'm talking about.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks Al, but that is not the "Bottom Gouge" I'm talking about.

It appears to me that the nose angle on the gouge in Al's picture is reasonably close to the nose angle on a "Bottom Feeder". Since it is the nose of the tool that you use when turning. the inside bottom of a steep sided bowl it wouldn't matter if the sides are swept back a bit or straight like an SRG.

However, Al was answering John's question about some of the terminology used, specifically push cut.

 

[Bill Blasic]

Are you talking about the fluteless gouge? This is a great tool for finishing the inside of the bowl, it can be used from the bottom the top or from the top down the side across the bottom. The tool is flat on top (no flutes) and I use it tilted on its side for a slicing cut. You can get a very nice finish with no tear out.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Are you talking about the fluteless gouge? This is a great tool for finishing the inside of the bowl, it can be used from the bottom the top or from the top down the side across the bottom. The tool is flat on top (no flutes) and I use it tilted on its side for a slicing cut. You can get a very nice finish with no tear out.

No, I wasn't talking about a "fluteless gouge", but now you've put even more questions in my head--- got a photo?

 

[john lucas]

What I call a bottoming gouge is simply a gouge with the nose ground to a more blunt angle. My normal gouge is about 55 or 60 degrees. My bottom gouge is closer to 80 degrees although I don't really have one any more. I use the Hunter #4 or #5 when I need a bottoming gouge. The reason behind a bottom gouge is with a regualar gouge when you have a steep sided bowl you can't rub the bevel through that transition area or in the case of bowl with a closed in top the lip of the bowl will hit the gouge shank as you get close to the bottom preventing bevel rubbing. So you grind a bowl gouge with a more blunt angle so that you can rub the bevel while going across the bottom. The more blunt angle of course doesn't always cut as clean. I use the Hunter tool because the outside bevel is about 82 degrees which allows you to rub the bevel on really deep boxes or bowls that look more like a spitoon. The inside cutting angle on a Hunter carbide cutter is about 30 degrees give or take a couple, so you get the advantage of a bottoming gouge with clean cutting of a very sharp spindle gouge.
If you look at the beginning of this video you see I am using a #4 Hunter tool and I'm cutting the face of a platter but notice that the shank of the tool is almost straight out. That would allow me to cut across the bottom of a bowl that looks more like a cannister.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo

 

[robo hippy]

Well here is a clip I did about the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suRxCxdMn4k


BOB (bottom of bowl) tools are all fairly similar. Bevel angle is 60 to 80 degrees, and there is generally very little sweep across the nose, so more ) shaped than fingernail shaped. I have several, and all seem to get used, not so much as one being better than the others, but some times one works better than the other for no particular reason. One is an old 1/2 inch gouge with a round flute shape. Probably not my most used, but I roll it over on the side for a high shear angle. Good for taking off maybe a 1/8 inch wide shaving. I have a couple of spindle/detail gouges which have shallow flutes, and are more suited for taking off 1/8 inch or wider shavings. I use it a lot. I have a couple of the fluteless gouges from Doug, and prefer the bigger ones. These are best for taking off angel hair shavings, and you can roll them over to 80 degrees or so for a really high shear angle. The higher the shear angle, the less 'lift' there is to the shaving as you cut it off of the bowl. I do round off the heels of all of them. I do use these more for controlling tear out, and have gotten into the habit of using the NRS (negative rake scraper) and shear scraping to smooth out all the ripples.

Hope this doesn't confuse things more....

robo hippy

 

[John Torchick]

John and robo hippy, thanks for the videos. Watched both of them and will get into the shop tomorrow to practice. Nothing like going into a clean shop and piling up the shavings and chips.
FWIW, Lyle did a demo at a chapter meeting last year. Very impressive.

 

[john lucas]

I found a photo of my earlier bottoming gouge. It is the 3rd down from the top. You can see how blunt the tip is compared to the 2 on top. The top one I use for pull cuts. I designed this one primarily for my hand mirrors. The left wing used to be really long but over the years I ended up shortening that one and grinding both the same length. the second one down is the gouge I use most and is sharpened very similar to what Doug Thompson shows although now days I make the main bevel very short. I don't remember why I ground the bottom the way I did. I no longer have that tool or have ground it to something else,

 

[John Torchick]

My gouge is very similar to the third one down.

 

[Jon Minerich]

I just watched a Stuart Batty video last night. In it he talks about a "bottom gouge". It has a steeper angle (If I remember correctly 60 degrees) and and short ears. He mentioned the same thing John just did, it is used to "navigate" the transition on steep bowls. Here is the link:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMVGankeK0I

 

[Larry Weinberg]

Well here is a clip I did about the fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suRxCxdMn4k


BOB (bottom of bowl) tools are all fairly similar. Bevel angle is 60 to 80 degrees, and there is generally very little sweep across the nose, so more ) shaped than fingernail shaped. I have several, and all seem to get used, not so much as one being better than the others, but some times one works better than the other for no particular reason. One is an old 1/2 inch gouge with a round flute shape. Probably not my most used, but I roll it over on the side for a high shear angle. Good for taking off maybe a 1/8 inch wide shaving. I have a couple of spindle/detail gouges which have shallow flutes, and are more suited for taking off 1/8 inch or wider shavings. I use it a lot. I have a couple of the fluteless gouges from Doug, and prefer the bigger ones. These are best for taking off angel hair shavings, and you can roll them over to 80 degrees or so for a really high shear angle. The higher the shear angle, the less 'lift' there is to the shaving as you cut it off of the bowl. I do round off the heels of all of them. I do use these more for controlling tear out, and have gotten into the habit of using the NRS (negative rake scraper) and shear scraping to smooth out all the ripples.

Hope this doesn't confuse things more....

robo hippy

Thanks for video and wood lathe tool enlightenment. Bought a black locust bowl from you about 15 years ago at a holiday market. At least I think it was you. Larry

 

[William Rogers]

Tom
This link has multiple pictures of the Thomson BOB. Initially referenced as mystery in the post and later identified as a Thompson BOB. The previous owner had it ground wrong. I have corrected the grind and really like using it. I sharpen to a 60 degree like a roughing gouge.

Another tool mystery

I bought this tool from. a friend who got it from a turner who was no longer able to turn. I know the handle is Glaser, but he said the original owner replaced the gouge since he liked the handle, but did not know the replacement. It is deep flute outside diameter is 5/8” and flute width is...

www.aawforum.org

 

[Seth Belcher]

I've been on a bit of a "bottom bowl gouge" journey over the past few months. I bought the Thompson bottom bowl gouge first, and I really liked it. Looking back though, part of that was somewhat biased on my part due to my love of Thompson gouges; they are my favorite. Don't get me wrong, the Thompson bottom gouge is good, the flute on the Thompson gouge is quite long and deep, which can cause some chatter when overhanging the toolrest into deeper bowls.
When I found out about Ashley Harwood's bottom gouge I ended up buying it as well because it has improvements that make it better than the Thompson. Specifically, it has a shorter and shallower flute which addresses the chatter during long overhang situations.

Here is a video of me using Ashley Harwood's new bottom bowl gouge along with the video where she first announced that it was available.

View: https://youtu.be/4H2j8WFcx6M

View: https://youtu.be/RrZzdiCe5NQ



It is definitely a gouge that requires a different technique but, in my opinion, it's a tool that definitely deserves a spot in your arsenal.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I've been on a bit of a "bottom bowl gouge" journey over the past few months. I bought the Thompson bottom bowl gouge first, and I really liked it. Looking back though, part of that was somewhat biased on my part due to my love of Thompson gouges; they are my favorite. Don't get me wrong, the Thompson bottom gouge is good, the flute on the Thompson gouge is quite long and deep, which can cause some chatter when overhanging the toolrest into deeper bowls.
When I found out about Ashley Harwood's bottom gouge I ended up buying it as well because it has improvements that make it better than the Thompson. Specifically, it has a shorter and shallower flute which addresses the chatter during long overhang situations.

Here is a video of me using Ashley Harwood's new bottom bowl gouge along with the video where she first announced that it was available.

View: https://youtu.be/4H2j8WFcx6M

View: https://youtu.be/RrZzdiCe5NQ



It is definitely a gouge that requires a different technique but, in my opinion, it's a tool that definitely deserves a spot in your arsenal.

And if you could cut much better with a few corrections... Your body position is wrong, your body keeps getting in the way of the cut. You should have your left foot forward, the handle should not touch your body till the very end of the cut. You are also holding it back, you are holding it like a regular bowl gouge, out of habit. Your 40/40, the bevel is way too long. You want just a 1/8 in or less bevel. The bowl is a nice salad bowl. The sides are too straight to be a Hawaiian Calabash. You got the round bottom right.

 

[john lucas]

I use the Hunter Badger cupped carbide tool for my bottom gouge. It has an 82 degree outside bevel so you can ride the bevel on very steep bowls and boxes. The cutting edge is 60 degrees so it cuts cleaner than most bottoming gouges. I have a video showing this tool in use. On youtube type in john60lucas/Hunter. Here is a shot of a sample piece I turned showing how you can turn a square sided box with this tool and how clean it cuts.

 

[Seth Belcher]

And if you could cut much better with a few corrections... Your body position is wrong, your body keeps getting in the way of the cut. You should have your left foot forward, the handle should not touch your body till the very end of the cut. You are also holding it back, you are holding it like a regular bowl gouge, out of habit. Your 40/40, the bevel is way too long. You want just a 1/8 in or less bevel. The bowl is a nice salad bowl. The sides are too straight to be a Hawaiian Calabash. You got the round bottom right.

Hi Emiliano! Thank you so much, the feedback is much appreciated!

- I will definitely work on improving my body positioning. With the 40/40 gouge, my body positioning is just what comes naturally to me, but I definitely need to break that habit.
- With the bottom bowl gouge, I was excited to use my new long handle but, it was actually too long because I kept hitting my tailstock. I shouldn't have even attempted the cut without removing the tailstock or using a slightly shorter handle but, I was already recording and decided to keep going.
- You are absolutely right about the bevel on my 40/40 in the video. I honestly do grind away the heel on my 40/40 normally but, I was so focused on getting a decent shot of me grinding the main grind that I neglected to get a shot of that. The video doesn't show it but, after I first started cutting, I went back to the grinder to cut away that heel.
- I appreciate the feedback on the proportions of the calabash as well. I knew that I'd missed the mark on a true Hawaiian Calabash, and even admitted that in the description of the video. I recognized that the proportions were off with the height, and also that I didn't have any pewa's but, I didn't recognize that the sides were too straight. At the same time, that doesn't surprise me though. Earlier in the video I was really proud of the shape but, due to a bark inclusion I was trying to get rid of, I kept cutting and went way too far.
During that whole process I had your words echoing in my head from the demo that you did for WT360. Because the curve is so critical, you explained how a person can get into trouble chasing that perfect angle and turn a 12" bowl into an 8" bowl really quick. Well.....I was certainly guilty of that!


Thanks again, Emiliano! I will take your words to heart and give this another attempt!

SB

 

[Seth Belcher]

Does anybody have a photo to share of what is called a "Bottom Bowl Gouge"? Doug Thompson has one listed on his website, but no photo. He described it to me on the phone, but for me, a picture is worth more than words. Thompson said it is ground like a spindle roughing gouge, and that Ashley Harwood and Stuart Batty are fond of them, but I can't picture it.

Tom, I didn't mean to derail your initial request with my convo with Emiliano discussing my techniques. Here are some pictures of the Thompson and Ashley Harwood bottom bowl gouges side by side. The Thompson gouge is on the right.






Hopefully this is helpful!

 

[Gerry Patton]

I would love to know how the D-Way BOB fits into this mix. Copy on D-Way's site says it has a short flute like AH's but I can't get a feel for the shape.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Tom, I didn't mean to derail your initial request with my convo with Emiliano discussing my techniques. Here are some pictures of the Thompson and Ashley Harwood bottom bowl gouges side by side. The Thompson gouge is on the right.

View attachment 43169
View attachment 43170
View attachment 43171
View attachment 43172

Hopefully this is helpful!

No apology needed Seth, though I don't understand why Emiliano felt it was appropriate to change the subject from tool design to an unsolicited critique of your turning stance and your calabash terminology.

Thanks for the photos. I should note that since I started this thread five years ago I have acquired a Harwood bottom gouge after I was her demo assistant in Tennessee once. She explained how she wisely adapted the Batty gouge by having Thompson make hers with that heavier (thicker) tang to reduce vibration. When I am making bowls that is my tool of choice in the bottom, but I am just beginning to explore the fluteless Thompson bottom tool.

 

[Seth Belcher]

Hi Tom, I have to admit, I didn’t even realize you’d started this thread 5 years ago!
I guess that’s proof I need to slow down and pay closer attention! Ha!

 

[robo hippy]

Well, in my arsenal, I have maybe a dozen BOB tools. Several of the Thompson fluteless gouges, a couple of spindle detail gouges, one old Craft Supplies half round gouge, a couple of Thompson U gouges, and maybe a few others. The one thing they all have in common is that none of them are ground straight across the top like some of these appear to be. They all have a ) shape, which is about a 40 degree sweep. I found out a long time ago that the square design tends to catch on that corner. The whole concept of Ashley's design escapes me. Perhaps that is because I have a good inside bowl rest so I don't need long handles to counterbalance a long shaft and hanging out way too far off of the tool rest, which I could learn, but don't because I consider it not efficient and it has higher risk for fine tool control. I like holding the tools in close to my body for finer tool control. This means I use a pivoting and/or sliding headstock. That is what they were designed for. She learned from Stuart, and his style comes from bowl turning on a long bed lathe. You can't lean over to get the tool into proper position because that makes your back sore. You have to extend your arms out away from your body so that you can stand up straight. Just not my style......

robo hippy

 

[Joe Kaufman]

I would love to know how the D-Way BOB fits into this mix. Copy on D-Way's site says it has a short flute like AH's but I can't get a feel for the shape.

1/2" D-Way BOB Grind - It is Dave's grind on his standard bowl gouge

 

[John Hicks]

I'n not even sure why I would need one; I never had any problem with a swept back gouge for any area of the inside of a bowl?

 

[Bill Blasic]

My bottom of the bowl go to gouge is a Thompson 3/8" U gouge sharpened about 80 degrees. Normally my 5/8 V Thompson will get me all the way through top to bottom (sharpened with the Vector Grind Fixture). Every once in a while I'll get a piece of wood that no matter how I try I cannot get through the transition area between top and bottom with out tear out (sometimes one of my Hunter carbides will not get through without tear out). That is when I use the 3/8 U and I'll go through just once to clean it up and then resharpen the tool and put it away. It doesn't happen very often but it does happen as wood can be unpredictable.

 

[Gerry Patton]

Thanks Joe, for the excellent photo of the D-Way BOB. I think I need to try one of these tools and it helps with my selection process.

 

[robo hippy]

The swept back gouges are generally sharpened with about a 60 degree bevel. That will get you through the transition and across the bottom of most bowls. I consider the bevel angle to be the critical point for this type of gouge. Some use them with flutes up, some use them with flutes on the side which is my method.

One thing I find curious about the Ashley Harwood BOB tool is that hers is 'patent pending'. I would be shocked if there was anything that was patentable on it. Best guess is that it is for 'protection', to keep others from trying to copy it. Saw a You Tube video about it and it got an eye roll from me. She wants a long shaft and long handle so she can hang out farther off the tool rest. Not a good idea to me.

robo hippy

 

[Tom Albrecht]

The swept back gouges are generally sharpened with about a 60 degree bevel. That will get you through the transition and across the bottom of most bowls. I consider the bevel angle to be the critical point for this type of gouge. Some use them with flutes up, some use them with flutes on the side which is my method.

One thing I find curious about the Ashley Harwood BOB tool is that hers is 'patent pending'. I would be shocked if there was anything that was patentable on it. Best guess is that it is for 'protection', to keep others from trying to copy it. Saw a You Tube video about it and it got an eye roll from me. She wants a long shaft and long handle so she can hang out farther off the tool rest. Not a good idea to me.

robo hippy

My take is that she wants a "long shaft, long handle, then a short handle and then a medium handle"... When I watch some of her longer purchased videos, I get the idea that she's trying to sell you on the need for an arsenal of SB handles.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

My take is that she wants a "long shaft, long handle, then a short handle and then a medium handle"... When I watch some of her longer purchased videos, I get the idea that she's trying to sell you on the need for an arsenal of SB handles.

She is a salesperson for sure. That’s how she makes her money. It all comes down to how many tools do you need. We all got by just fine with a regular gouge in the past. Hers are also a two part metal alloy I believe . with the expensive one being the cutting edge. Up as John Lucas has said he has saw these tools come and go .
but possible it is the one tool we need to get to greatness!

 

[Joe Kaufman]

Thanks Joe, for the excellent photo of the D-Way BOB. I think I need to try one of these tools and it helps with my selection process.

What I am sort of indicating in that post is that you try that grind on any tool with a similar flute. I am going to try one of my 5/8" "U" flute gouges with that grind as I haven't found a good use for them. I perceive the issue with difficult woods is too much cutting surface in contact with the wood. Too little contact takes much more skill to get a smooth contour. If you wanted a 3/8" BOB Gouge, I would definitely recommend trying a "V" flute first.

 

[Tim Tucker]

My take is that she wants a "long shaft, long handle, then a short handle and then a medium handle"... When I watch some of her longer purchased videos, I get the idea that she's trying to sell you on the need for an arsenal of SB handles.

She has her own line of handles now- which have some interesting features.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Hi Emiliano! Thank you so much, the feedback is much appreciated!

- I will definitely work on improving my body positioning. With the 40/40 gouge, my body positioning is just what comes naturally to me, but I definitely need to break that habit.
- With the bottom bowl gouge, I was excited to use my new long handle but, it was actually too long because I kept hitting my tailstock. I shouldn't have even attempted the cut without removing the tailstock or using a slightly shorter handle but, I was already recording and decided to keep going.
- You are absolutely right about the bevel on my 40/40 in the video. I honestly do grind away the heel on my 40/40 normally but, I was so focused on getting a decent shot of me grinding the main grind that I neglected to get a shot of that. The video doesn't show it but, after I first started cutting, I went back to the grinder to cut away that heel.
- I appreciate the feedback on the proportions of the calabash as well. I knew that I'd missed the mark on a true Hawaiian Calabash, and even admitted that in the description of the video. I recognized that the proportions were off with the height, and also that I didn't have any pewa's but, I didn't recognize that the sides were too straight. At the same time, that doesn't surprise me though. Earlier in the video I was really proud of the shape but, due to a bark inclusion I was trying to get rid of, I kept cutting and went way too far.
During that whole process I had your words echoing in my head from the demo that you did for WT360. Because the curve is so critical, you explained how a person can get into trouble chasing that perfect angle and turn a 12" bowl into an 8" bowl really quick. Well.....I was certainly guilty of that!


Thanks again, Emiliano! I will take your words to heart and give this another attempt!

SB

I'm happy to hear that you saw my demo. No wonder you nailed the bottom, LOL. It would not matter how long your handle is if you have a tailstock on. I'm guilty of forgetting things when I'm talking too much, and or on camera. The bottom bowl gouge as a learning curve, once you master there is no tool better for the bottom.