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Are there optimum techniques

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Conflicting Beliefs by Mike Darlow



It’s popularly believed that different techniques suit different turners. Here are three examples which illustrate that belief:

1. Keith Rowley in the New Edition of his book Woodturning: A Foundation Course describes three methods for cutting coves in axially grained workpieces. He then explains the fourth method that he uses before suggesting “you try all the above methods and settle for the one that suits you.”

2. John Kelsey in reviewing the first edition of my book Sharpening Woodturning Tools (SWT) in the February 2024 American Woodturner (AW) wrote “And thus Darlow himself is both the strength and the weakness of this book. Practices he knows and does himself, he understands and can explain to a remarkably fine degree. What he doesn’t do himself, he judges to be suboptimal. This reflects his core belief that there is indeed an optimum way of doing everything, and anything else is substandard, to be disregarded. But in fact–and I have seen this over and over again in my long career as a writer and editor—every adept craftsperson operates within a coherent system wherein all the parts fit smoothly together. An element considered in isolation might not make sense, but in context, it works perfectly well . . . for that craftsperson. Optimum for you is not necessarily optimum for me.”

John Kelsey is incorrect to state that “anything else is substandard, to be disregarded.” I am keenly interested in all the conflicting techniques promoted because as SWT demonstrates, I regard part of my role as a woodturning teacher to examine and rate the conflicting techniques for hobby woodturners who may not have the time or the knowledge to do so themselves. John is, however correct to state that I believe that there is a suite of woodturning techniques which is optimum for all those without significant mental and physical handicaps who wish to turn as well as they reasonably can.

3. The American Association of Woodturners journal American Woodturner currently promotes three conflicting sets of sharpening angles: by George Hatfield, by Alan Lacer, and by Dennis Belcher. However the journal gives no guidance about which set to adopt, and thus confuses rather than helps its members.

The attraction of the belief that different techniques suit different turners is that it allows those who promote different techniques to both avoid having to substantiate their techniques’ superiority over conflicting techniques, and avoid having to cooperate with others to continually improve and seek a consensus on the techniques which should be taught. And if questioned, these promoters can always fall back on the excuse “it works for me”, what I have called the Frank Sinatra syndrome. The beauty of this belief is that the only people who suffer by being confronted with a mass of conflicting and mostly suboptimal advices are the amateur woodturners who finance woodturning teachers, suppliers and woodturning’s media.

So what is my evidence that the belief that different techniques suit different turners is wrong?

1. No promoter of the belief has been able to or even attempted to explain which innate differences between turners which would cause different techniques to be optimum for different turners. If these innate differences are unknown, how is a turner to correctly choose or be advised which of the alternative and conflicting techniques to adopt?

Terry Martin was correct in his letter in the June 2025 AW to point out that different turners have different natural turning abilities. But my experience is that almost all who wish to become competent will if taught what I believe are the optimum techniques achieve competence in them. Obviously there are a few who are seriously handicapped, and for whom special techniques are optimum. There are also many turners who aren’t prepared to commit to learning to turn as well they reasonably can, and for whom “softer” techniques are therefore optimum. These techniques are however less efficient, usually involve more sanding, and restrict the vocabulary of forms which can be turned.

2. If two turners take a tool with an identical edge and present it to and traverse it along a similar workpiece, the results will be identical. Innate personal factors make no difference. Therefore turners who desire to turn efficiently and to possess the largest turning vocabulary (and why wouldn’t they?), should adopt the optimum techniques.

Why is the belief that different techniques best suit different turners so popular?

1. The woodturning media is reluctant to publish objective criticism and comparisons of techniques, particularly of techniques promoted by established contributors.

2. The norm is that today’s turning teachers are largely self-taught or taught by teachers who were largely self-taught. With the absence of some central authority (not that I’m suggesting there be one), there’s little pressure to cooperate to achieve a consensus on which techniques are optimum and how they could be improved. Instead teachers commonly take the approach “I turn using these techniques because they work for me. Therefore you should use them too.” However it’s unlikely that such techniques have been rigorously compared with the alternatives.

3. The support given to the belief that different techniques suit different turners by establed turners. For example, on page 65 of issue 395 of Woodturning magazine Richard Findley wrote “professional production turners, all of whom use a skew extensively, all opt for a different version.” I suggest that the adoption of these different skews was mainly because these turners were apprenticed to different master turners, not because these British production turners have different innate qualities.

4. With the decline in trade woodturning, teaching is now focussed on short, project-based courses for hobbyists. The content of these courses is therefore unlikely to be stringently vetted. And although I guesstimate that at least 80% of the turning produced annually are spindle turnings (most turned on automatic lathes), the focus of teaching seems to be on turning bowls and other vessels for which the techniques are typically easier while the products are typically less useful.

5. Many turners have already achieved competence in suboptimal techniques. Whether they are prepared to put in the effort to upgrade their techniques to the optimum is their choice. It is a choice which would be unnecessary if turning teachers all taught the optimum techniques, and if the woodturning media promoted them.

6. It is impossible to quantify the differences in efficiency (I can think of no other single relevant criterion) between alternative techniques for performing the same operation. But if it were, the difference would have to be, say, at least 20% before differences become realisable through trials. However as proved in SWT, objective analysis can often differentiate between competing techniques which are much closer together. And if for a particlular operation the difference in efficiency between the optimum technique and the next-best were only about 5%, shouldn’t turners be able to grab that benefit?

The belief that there is a suite of optimum techniques is not narrow. For example for bowl turning the optimum techniques will vary according to the turner’s objectives. The optimum technique for sanded bowls required to be produced as rapidly as possible is different to that for bowls which won’t be sanded. And although bowls are best turned outboard, the optimum technique for those who have to turn bowls inboard is different.

I’ll conclude by repeating a student’s quote from Bruce Boulter’s book Woodturning in Pictures: “you know, it is much more simple to do it the right way.”

Mike Darlow, Aug 2025.
 
There is not a standard "right way" that suits each and every person. I have in my shop right now 7 different ways to sharpen the same tool, they all work but I have chosen just 1 that I like the best. Not because there is a standard but because "I like it". This comment to me is just ridiculous:
2. If two turners take a tool with an identical edge and present it to and traverse it along a similar workpiece, the results will be identical. Innate personal factors make no difference. Therefore turners who desire to turn efficiently and to possess the largest turning vocabulary (and why wouldn’t they?), should adopt the optimum techniques.
Learning to sharpen a tool from anyone is going to be bent by the fact that they believe their way is the best way. In my shop they learn that there are many ways to sharpen a tool and there is no "right way", it's your way! Optimum techniques will never ever be the same for each and every person, that is an impossibility.
 
Yeah , I agree with Bill.. If there's only one optimal technique , then why are there so many highly successful and collectible artists that use completely different techniques? Some of the more visible differences are like Batty (use your arms and extra long tool handles for tool control) vs perhaps someone like Richard Raffan (Tuck the tool in close and use your body weight and move from the knees and hips for tool control) I suspect Darlow's gonna be in a bit of a minority here...
 
And if for a particlular operation the difference in efficiency between the optimum technique and the next-best were only about 5%, shouldn’t turners be able to grab that benefit?
Speaking as a relative newbie with no aspirations of going pro or doing production work:
If an instructor had a rigid focus on enforcing "optimal," it would suck more than 5% of the fun out of this hobby for me.
 
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Their may be optimal techniques but all that really matters is did you make the piece you wanted. Not how you got there. Some of my best pieces were built when I had terrible tool control and carving skills. Patience and persistance is all that's really needed.
 
I've made a lot of comparisons between woodturning and golf. Anyone can learn the rules and basics, but everyone's learning curve in the pursuit of perfection will be a little different. Some will stick with it and develope their own style, while some will give it up and move on. Some just have a natural ability, while others need to work at it more. The more time spent practicing and getting instruction elevates your skills and enjoyment. Repeatability and consistency are key.
 
I spent over 30 years in process optimization in both manufacturing and financial services industries. The mantra was always “there is one current best way. If you think you have a better way, let’s change the standard so everyone uses the new best way”. Another big one was "Without standards, there can be no improvement”.

I get where you are coming from.

There are two problems with defining an optimal technique for wood turning.

The first problem is defining the inputs and outputs. The optimal technique for making a magic wand out of wet pine will be very different from the optimal technique for making a 24” platter out of lignum vitae. The optimal technique for making a bowl for daily use will be different if it’s for a museum.

The second problem is defining what you want to optimize. In business, it was generally cost, quality, and lead time. In this hobby, enjoyment is most important for many of us. This is where it gets really dicey trying to define optimal. Kind of like trying to define an optimal vacation. Some like Disneyland, some prefer hiking in the mountains.

So to summarize, I do believe there is an optimal technique for everything as long as you are controlling all the variables. You, in your shop, for a particular project, and type of wood. Change any one of those variables and optimal changes.
 
Thank you Mike Novak for taking the trouble to thoroughly read and consider my thread.
There are some tens of optimum techniques, in part because of different objectives and differences in the equipment which can be accessed.
Turners are free to use whatever techniques they like. But by using optimum techniques you'll be able to turn what you have designed faster and with greater certainty. What's wrong with that?
Bill Blasic has seven different ways to sharpen the same tool, but has chosen the one he likes the "best". High-profile turners recommend sharpening angles for skews between 20 and 55 degrees. Why the differences? Why should the "best" for Bill Blasic be different to the "best" for other turners?
 
Mike I assume that you are the Mike Darlow that has written books and made videos (most of which I have). I have also had here in my shop or studied with at least 20 pro turners. Now do I turn like any of them? I turn with parts of them. I have learned and balanced their teachings and use what works for me. For me there is not nor will there ever be an optimum technique. Each piece of wood that I use will always present things that I have to adapt to get the desired results. The one and only optimum thing in my turning journey is my gouges and my grinder. When all these years of hosting hands on with different pros I had grinders for use to all those who attended but my personal grinder was and is only used by me. The grinder and the two CBN wheels, the Vector Grind Fixture and my Thompson Lathe Tools. It's optimized because nothing ever moves, everything is always the same. But it ends there as I may change what handle I'm using on any given tool or a host of variables. Mike I would never call you Mr. Excitement but your books and videos have given me insight and of course knowledge. I just cannot ever be button holed into believing that there would ever be the best way to do one thing for everybody.
 
Kent,

I can’t quit remember this one, but it was something like “if two experts give conflicting opinions, assume they are both correct “. This gets back to what are the assumptions?
 
Thank you Mike Novak for taking the trouble to thoroughly read and consider my thread.
There are some tens of optimum techniques, in part because of different objectives and differences in the equipment which can be accessed.
Turners are free to use whatever techniques they like. But by using optimum techniques you'll be able to turn what you have designed faster and with greater certainty. What's wrong with that?
Bill Blasic has seven different ways to sharpen the same tool, but has chosen the one he likes the "best". High-profile turners recommend sharpening angles for skews between 20 and 55 degrees. Why the differences? Why should the "best" for Bill Blasic be different to the "best" for other turners?
Well we head back into techniques here, I'd guess - For turner A, who likes to turn spindles with a skew and FOR THAT PERSON his Lathe, his physical abilities, and his preferred sharpening angle all have a hand in relating to his particular optimal technique, and turns out amazingly beautiful Museum quality artwork.. But if Turner B was to adopt turner A's techniques turner B might not be able to produce very good quality work, so then turner B tries a different technique, finds it slightly better, changes his bevel angles and tool rest height (maybe his arm length or range of motion is different) and then discovers he can do even better using a spindle gouge , and suddenly turner B is producing equivalently amazing and beautiful museum quality work with a completely different technique. So who's technique is best? I'll reiterate, there's no one single optimal technique for all turners.
 
I will answer this by making a comparison with cooking. If you were to search for a recipe for Lasagna you will find published online and on books over 2 million different recipes. If you forget about exact measurements etc they are all only slight variations of about 5.
If I am told that 40 degrees is the best grinding angle, and I get 38 degrees. I don't think I will notice any difference when I turn. There are many ways to do things, but they are often more similar than you realize.
 
If you're a new turner standing in front of a lathe with a tool in your hands for the first time you'll definitely benefit from a teacher showing you what they consider to be the optimum techniques. But as you gain experience you'll find that the term "optimum techniques" includes infinite options, all of which are optimum techniques.
 
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Turning is relatively simple. It’s presenting an edge to and traversing it along rotating wood. If there is an optimum technique for a turning activity, almost all who are taught that technique and desire to replicate it can, exactly. Hair colour, body mass index, limb lengths, etc. do not prevent that replication. And unlike the taste of different lasagna recipes, the results are usually comparable by trial and/or by analysis.

Those who disagree with me won’t have read my eighth woodturning book Sharpening Woodturning Tools (SWT) which shows that many of the techniques promoted by well-known turners in recent decades, including me, are suboptimal. If the penalties of using suboptimal techniques could be quantified, some might only be 5% or 10%, but wouldn’t you be angry if your turning was so penalized merely because your teacher didn’t care enough to try to teach the optimum techniques known at the time.

A simple example. Table 1.1 in SWT lists the tool sharpening angles recommended in 33 books. Since 1957 sixteen authors recommend 45 degrees for roughing gouges. I challenge those who disagree with my belief to sharpen half a roughing gouge’s edge to 45 degrees and half to 30 degrees. Cutting is perceptibly easier with the latter. Also what is not easily measured is that if the 30-degree edge is honed, it needs sharpening less often that the 45-degree edge whether honed or not. So all those teachers who have promoted 45 degrees have unknowingly, but unnecessarily, penalized their students. Is this something which should continue?

The current situation is that as long as a technique isn’t unsafe, it isn’t criticized. If my belief becomes accepted, learners will become better turners, and there should arise a combined effort to continually improve the optimum techniques and banish the suboptimal ones.

Thanks, Mike Darlow
 
OK Mike, who decides what is optimal? You think 30° is optimal what if I believe 45° is optimal after trying 30°, am I wrong? My sharpening system I use is optimal to me but if it were the same for everybody JoHannes Michelsen would be a very very rich guy. The best thing you have said is "Turning is relatively simple. It’s presenting an edge to and traversing it along rotating wood.". Is that statement optimal? By the way I have no idea for sure what the angle of my roughing gouge is, if I were to guess it is probably closer to 45° than 30°. It is the same angle that Doug Thompson put on it and I have never changed it because it cuts very very well and it stays sharp for a very very long time and I'm very very satisfied with the results.
 
I believe there are optimal ways to cut wood but that isn't the only consideration when turning. Are you trying to optimize the amount of energy put into the process? The resulting condition of the wood surface? Optimize the time taken? The shape or appearance of the finished product? The satisfaction of the hobby turner? Maybe optimize for safety or ease of use?

A production turner may need to optimize time and material usage. An artist may need to optimize form and finish. If I'm fitting several parts together, accuracy is needed more than anything else. If each use case is different, optimal technique will be different as well. There are so many use cases that trying to put time and energy into defining general optimal techniques seems like a waste of resources. What does seem reasonable to me is to define general practices for beginning turners. Then as the beginner works to become more advanced and discover different avenues of woodturning, they can come to a forum such as this and find more advanced practices to try. Eventually they will discover which techniques are most optimal for what they are trying to accomplish. Those needs will certainly change over time.
 
If general agreement is reached that there are optimal techniques, then there will be cooperation and research into defining them. That's why this issue is so important. Why Bill Blasic don't you try the roughing gouge experiment I suggested and report back? It'll only take you ten miniutes. Darryn Archall, in most situations an optimum technique gives accuracy, safety, speed and minimises tearout. That's why it's optimum.
 
I have no interest at all in determining if optimizing my technique will improve my ability to cut wood by a small margin. I would much rather spend my limited time in learning about shape and form, wood coloring and embellishment. I am much more interested in artistic expression than I am mechanical perfection. Hopefully you will be able to find some like-minded people to help you in your endeavor Mike. Good luck and report back with the results. I look forward to reading your future posts.
 
I don't mind what techniques turners choose to use. Once it is accepted that there are optimum techniques, and there is a consensus on what those techniques are, turners will be able to make an informed choice about what techniques to adopt. Currently they can't.
I, however, am in the business of teaching others. My objective, and surely that of other teachers, should be to teach the optimum techniques known at the time. Obviously this isn't happening, and the people who suffer are beginners and hobby woodturners who may thus be using suboptimal techniques for decades.
If all those who have contributed to this debate perform the simple roughing gouge test that I suggested to BIll Blasic, I'm confident that they'll all confirm that 30 degrees is better than 45 degrees. It would then be safe to assume that 30 degrees is better for all turners. Why then do sixteen woodturning books published since 1957 recommend 45 degrees?
 
I don't mind what techniques turners choose to use. Once it is accepted that there are optimum techniques, and there is a consensus on what those techniques are, turners will be able to make an informed choice about what techniques to adopt. Currently they can't.
I, however, am in the business of teaching others. My objective, and surely that of other teachers, should be to teach the optimum techniques known at the time. Obviously this isn't happening, and the people who suffer are beginners and hobby woodturners who may thus be using suboptimal techniques for decades.
If all those who have contributed to this debate perform the simple roughing gouge test that I suggested to BIll Blasic, I'm confident that they'll all confirm that 30 degrees is better than 45 degrees. It would then be safe to assume that 30 degrees is better for all turners. Why then do sixteen woodturning books published since 1957 recommend 45 degrees?
Why is everybody wrong except me? Clearly, they are all dubs who have never tried any methods other than what they were taught. :)

I will find a smaller roughing gouge than the one I have, grind it at 30* and report back at some point. My suspicion is that 30* will work well on softer woods and dull quickly on harder ones, and perhaps give more tearout on figured species.

I agree that there is an advantage to experimentation and practice. In one of Ashley Harwood's videos she says that "Practice makes permanent", so you had better be practicing the right moves. Choosing the optimal teacher is not so easy. Even you, Mike, can be wrong- c.f. "Those who disagree with me won’t have read my eighth woodturning book Sharpening Woodturning Tools (SWT) which shows that many of the techniques promoted by well-known turners in recent decades, including me, are suboptimal." Once one gets to a level of competence that allows producing the desired forms predictably it is easy to stick with "what works", even if some boffin from down under considers it suboptimal.

I urge you to continue sharing your evolving insights on "optimal" woodturning technique. I suspect you won't be surprised if you encounter some pushback.
 
Hi Kevin, you are sort of wrong in your belief that 30 degrees will dull quickly on harder woods. An edge can blunt in two ways: by crumbling, and by abrasion by the wood. If the edge does not crumble, but only dulls by abrasion, the smaller the sharpening angle the longer it takes to dull by abrasion. An edge ground to 30 degrees and honed won't crumble if used optimally (i.e. not as a scraper), and will therefore last longer on both soft and hard woods than a 45 degree edge. Another reason to prefer smaller sharpening angles.

However, the most important factor when cutting is side rake. Try for 45 degrees with axially grained workpieces, 70 degrees or more with transversely grained workpieces.

You mention pushback. I posted the thread to the Forum because American Woodturner refused to publish my letter (similar to the thread) in reply to Terry Martin's letter in the June 2025 American Woodturner. I appealed to the AAW Board who would not overrule AW's editor, but suggested I use this Forum.
 
If general agreement is reached that there are optimal techniques, then there will be cooperation and research into defining them. That's why this issue is so important. Why Bill Blasic don't you try the roughing gouge experiment I suggested and report back? It'll only take you ten miniutes. Darryn Archall, in most situations an optimum technique gives accuracy, safety, speed and minimises tearout. That's why it's optimum.
Mike, I have settled upon my method of sharpening (remember 7 ways to sharpen the same tool) and have settled upon the Thompson roughing gouge does not mean I have not tried others. I have had other roughing gouges and those gouges were sharpened at many different angles (including 30° I'm sure) with different sharpening methods. If any of those angles worked better than what I'm using now you would assume that I would still be using it. I don't agree with your answer above to Kevin, not all tools for me are as good as what I use and some have needed a lot more sharpening than others and the sharper the angle the quicker they needed to go back to the grinder dependent on the wood in most cases. I can understand why they would not print your letter Mike as there is like seven ways to skin a cat, not everything is black and white and many roads lead to Rome. Woodturning is not a straight pole it is a tree with many branches and I think that the vast majority do not believe that there is optimal anything for all woodturners.
 
Hi Kevin, you are sort of wrong in your belief that 30 degrees will dull quickly on harder woods. An edge can blunt in two ways: by crumbling, and by abrasion by the wood. If the edge does not crumble, but only dulls by abrasion, the smaller the sharpening angle the longer it takes to dull by abrasion. An edge ground to 30 degrees and honed won't crumble if used optimally (i.e. not as a scraper), and will therefore last longer on both soft and hard woods than a 45 degree edge.

My initial reaction was "Hogwash" or something more pointed. A little search brought me to this article maximizing edge retention. Interesting and worth further experimentation with sharpening angles on turning tools.

However, the most important factor when cutting is side rake. Try for 45 degrees with axially grained workpieces, 70 degrees or more with transversely grained workpieces.

What do you mean by "side rake"? Skewing the tool so the edge meets the spindle at an angle less than 90* (commonly called a "shear cut")? That actually reduces the attack angle of the tool to the wood, just as a lower sharpening angle does.
 
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As for edge geometry, an acute edge/more pointy will not take the abuse that a more obtuse/blunt edge will. Of course, the opposite comes in to play here, where a finer/more acute edge can better get under the wood fiber and more "gently" lift as it cuts for cleaner cuts. We don't use micro bevels on our tools, or at least I have never heard of doing this, like is common in fine woodworking. A slightly more blunt edge/higher angle will take more wear and tear than a more acute angle, like primary bevel is 25 degrees, with micro bevel being at 30 degrees. One knife sharpening channel does take cheap knives and cuts through nails. A finer edge gets way more damaged than a more blunt angle. He loves his extra close up cameras.... He does split hairs too! It still pretty much comes down to personal choice. My NRSs are sharpened to 25 top angle and 55 bottom angle which makes for a much longer lasting burr than I can get on a 30/30 grind. I have heard that a more acute angle is sharper. I have yet to test that out.

robo hippy
 
Darryn Archall, in most situations an optimum technique gives accuracy, safety, speed and minimises tearout. That's why it's optimum.
Would have to disagree. Optimal speed and cutting angle for a professional turner with a skew could be completely unmanageable and unsafe for someone just learning. If I am making a dowel to glue in a hole, tear out may be advantageous with the glue I'm using. There is so much variety in what a turner may be attempting to accomplish that optimal really doesn't have much meaning.
 
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I hesitate to post in this thread but here goes, i am completely self taught, I would never attempt to teach turning to someone else, I have been turning for about 10 years, each year i turn about 250 pens, several large segmented vases, and many many natural edge bowls and boxes etc....... my most used tool is the skew, followed by scrapers (big-ugly) and bowl gauges. i have no idea what angle they are ground at I'm like Bill Blasic I use D-Way gouges and sharpen them to whatever angle they are when i get them using the vari-grind, this is what i got used too and works good for me, i have tried different angles when i bought tools from a different supplier but always go back to the D-Way grind.
the reason i posted is just to say that i have looked at some videos of professional turners and i do things very different than they do, and, i have figured out what works for me and what i can do quickly.
i am not saying that if i had had the chance to take some classes when i was starting out no doubt it would have eased my learning curve and showd me some better ways but i did figure it out and it works for me and everyone is different and everyone will do things differently

Tim
 
Thank you Bill, Kevin, Robo, Darryn. and Tim for responding.
If you took a course with me your first three three-hour classes would be on the skew, and you would be expected to practice between classes. Almost all students would after those three classes have achieved basic competence in that tool. In the subsequent classes they would cover the other basic techniques which they would then find easy. So Darryn you're wrong, if taught under supervision a skew is both manageable and safe. And the basic techniques can be learnt by most students in about 40 hours. Some may need longer, some less time, but almost all get there. And this is the tragedy, because of the belief that different techniques suit different turners, teaching is generally without rigor, and the understanding of the principles (fundamental truths) of woodturning is poor.
You'll probably think I'm arrogant if I say I teach what I believe are the optimum techniques. But my students tend to stick with them because I explain why they are optimum, and why others they may have seen or read about aren't.
Many beginners won't be able to access the sort of tuition I provide. Alternatively they may not want to which is their choice.
Over five decades of turning I've had many contacts with tool manufacturers. I've even had tours of a couple of factories. In my experience they are as stubborn in their beliefs as some of the responders to my thread. I have five books published before 1957. All promote sharpening angles of 30 degrees and less. Then in 1957 Frank Pain's book promoted much larger sharpening angles without explanation. This seems to have started a fashion which has not abated despite the improvements in tool steel.
I notice that no one has responded to my challenge to compare sharpening angles. I'll repeat what I wrote earlier. Edges blunt in use through crumbling and/or abrasion by the passing wood. If a 25 degree edge is honed, it won't crumble if used correctly. And the smaller the sharpening angle of a non-crumbling edge, the longer it takes to blunt by abrasion. Several tool manufacturers supply tools with coarse sharpening angles. Whether this is because they know that's what turners believe is correct, or because they don't understand how tools blunt I don't know.
I hesitate to plug my book, but in this forum I'm trying to condense the 115 pages of my book Sharpening Woodturning Tools in my posts. Read the book, maybe a couple of times, mull over what it explains. I suspect you'll change your mind.
Thank you, Mike Darlow
 
Years ago, I took a class with John Jordan at Arrowmont. Showed up with my gouge. John took one look at it and said bad things about it and then took it to the grinder and "fixed it".
I used that grind for a couple of years. Then took a class with David Ellsworth........got the same reaction that John had. ......But, this was pretty much the grind that John had put on my gouge.
Then a few years later, I took a class with Christian Burchard. He looked at my gouge and said it was ground wrong.......took it to the grinder and "fixed it".

Now......all this has morphed into the grind that Hugh likes and uses all the time. Never change it now. I use what suits me.
 
I wonder if this could be a situation where there is truth in both arguments. It makes sense to me that if there is an optimum way of using a specific tool or technique then that should be the way it is taught. However, we all adopt particular individual methods and practices based on personal experience. Darryl mentioned golf in an earlier post, and I think sports make a good analogy. In baseball over the last decade they have increasingly taught about the optimal launch angle to achieve the highest slugging % and OPS. Does every baseball pro use this “optimal” launch angle? No, but that works as a good starting point for instruction and the data as we know it up to this point bears out that there is an “optimal” to have the best chance at success. But personal experience also has merit. Nobody would ever teach an amateur golfer to swing like Jim Furyk but I don’t think anyone in their right mind would criticize Furyk for his swing based on his accomplishments and accolades.

As a self-taught, fairly inexperienced turner I would appreciate more data-driven and agreed-upon education. That is how science/medicine work, relying completely on “evidence-based” trials and data.

I will try the 30 degree challenge because until I do, I cannot criticize that teaching. If it doesn’t work for me, I don’t think that automatically proves that it is not the most optimal method as I may have bad habits/technique that preclude that grind from working as it is supposed to but it still could be the “optimum”. However if the majority of turners who try it get poorer results that data would be significant.

Interesting discussion and I appreciate Mike’s information as well as everyone else’s opinions and thought.

Thanks,
Tom
 
Optimal speed and cutting angle for a professional turner with a skew could be completely unmanageable and unsafe for someone just learning.
If you are trying to learn on your own - it could be difficult to copy the speed and cutting angle with success

If you take a class with a good teacher you will have the skills and knowledges and practice to safely and effectively use the skew.
You’ll have to Use 400 grit paper to rough up the dowels for gluing
 
Thanks, Mike. Great discussion. I agree there is room for discussion of the actual science of what we do. Unfortunately, unlike pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, or rocket science, there simply isn't significant financial incentive to fund the science necessary to test, validate, publish, peer review what we do, i.e. conduct actual science with true scientific vigor. Even within fields of science where huge dollars and lives are at stake the optimal technique is still often not clear or there are other variables that drive variation: Richard Branson and Elon Musks have reached space by different methods. Read about both and choose what suits you best. For some with coronary artery disease (and we are talking life and death here) a bypass, a stent, or medical management are all options

I very much appreciate that you regard part of your role as a woodturning teacher to examine and rate the conflicting techniques for hobby woodturners like me who may not have the time or the knowledge to do so themselves. If I were to ever have the time to take an extended class or seminar I'd probably look for a teacher of your scientific ilk. But you couldn't be the fun police either.

Nevertheless, from what volumes of research are you drawing your conclusions that a 30 degree roughing gouge angle is always better than a 45 degree angle? How do I know you aren't in the business of selling 30 degree roughing gouges ground to spec to hobbyists like me? (I know you aren't, but the point is there is a lack of vigor in assuring a "scientific approach" is free of transparent disclosure of conflicts of interest.) Even in the field of medicine one solid trial published in the New England Journal of Medicine typically undergoes vigorous scrutiny and often is supported or refuted by other independent similar trials to follow. I would venture to guess you may be right that a 30 degree angle is best under most circumstances, but at this point I doubt there is vigorous scientific evidence to back that statement. Other posters here are engaging in pseudoscientific peer review as well in challenging your position and maybe will spawn others to post results of their own home trials. As a scientist myself I do appreciate when turners present their own small trials, but only view it as junk science at best-- yet better than no science at all.

In the end, what I enjoy best about turning is the art and the creativity that provides me an escape from my day job. I'd rather spend my time and energies on the art and the process of finding, prepping, and turning wood. It is an escape for me. The science of woodturning, not so much.

I agree with your notion that the industry indeed has incentive to promulgate the idea of whatever technique (or tool!) suits you best is best for the industry without incentive to criticize or promote the standardization of the science of what works best.

As I enjoy this forum immensely, I'd love to see a forum channel here where experienced turners could post optimum technique trials comparing one technique/tool/angle to another and provide feedback. We could probably even self police it (Hey Mr Smith, I see your trial showed your sanding technique works best but aren't you in the business of selling sanding supplies?) Maybe set some rules to limit the variables in a trial. We might indeed find that some long held common techniques or ideas may truly be far from ideal. I see this all the time in the field of medicine that long held beliefs fade away as the scientific evidence becomes more clear through vigorous research.

Thanks for spawning good conversation.
 
You'll probably think I'm arrogant if I say I teach what I believe are the optimum techniques.
And I agree Mike if you read your own statement that should help you to understand why the AAW Magazine would not publish your letter. You are 1 of 1 and your optimum choice is 1 of 1. Where I stand is that your 30° angle is wrong, it is weak and it will not stand up to the test of time! Now that's me 1 of 1 and my choice is 1 of 1. End of back and forth, nothing to learn here.
 
If you're a new turner standing in front of a lathe with a tool in your hands for the first time you'll definitely benefit from a teacher showing you what they consider to be the optimum techniques. But as you gain experience you'll find that the term "optimum techniques" includes infinite options, all of which are optimum techniques.
Bingo
 
I was messaging back and forth with Steve Jones, aka Woodturner 21. He commented some thing like "why turn bowls when you can turn spindles". I commented back, why turn spindles when you can turn bowls. If you play around enough, and are curious like I am, eventually you will settle on what is right for you.

robo hippy
 
Conflicting Beliefs by Mike Darlow



It’s popularly believed that different techniques suit different turners. Here are three examples which illustrate that belief:

1. Keith Rowley in the New Edition of his book Woodturning: A Foundation Course describes three methods for cutting coves in axially grained workpieces. He then explains the fourth method that he uses before suggesting “you try all the above methods and settle for the one that suits you.”

2. John Kelsey in reviewing the first edition of my book Sharpening Woodturning Tools (SWT) in the February 2024 American Woodturner (AW) wrote “And thus Darlow himself is both the strength and the weakness of this book. Practices he knows and does himself, he understands and can explain to a remarkably fine degree. What he doesn’t do himself, he judges to be suboptimal. This reflects his core belief that there is indeed an optimum way of doing everything, and anything else is substandard, to be disregarded. But in fact–and I have seen this over and over again in my long career as a writer and editor—every adept craftsperson operates within a coherent system wherein all the parts fit smoothly together. An element considered in isolation might not make sense, but in context, it works perfectly well . . . for that craftsperson. Optimum for you is not necessarily optimum for me.”

John Kelsey is incorrect to state that “anything else is substandard, to be disregarded.” I am keenly interested in all the conflicting techniques promoted because as SWT demonstrates, I regard part of my role as a woodturning teacher to examine and rate the conflicting techniques for hobby woodturners who may not have the time or the knowledge to do so themselves. John is, however correct to state that I believe that there is a suite of woodturning techniques which is optimum for all those without significant mental and physical handicaps who wish to turn as well as they reasonably can.

3. The American Association of Woodturners journal American Woodturner currently promotes three conflicting sets of sharpening angles: by George Hatfield, by Alan Lacer, and by Dennis Belcher. However the journal gives no guidance about which set to adopt, and thus confuses rather than helps its members.

The attraction of the belief that different techniques suit different turners is that it allows those who promote different techniques to both avoid having to substantiate their techniques’ superiority over conflicting techniques, and avoid having to cooperate with others to continually improve and seek a consensus on the techniques which should be taught. And if questioned, these promoters can always fall back on the excuse “it works for me”, what I have called the Frank Sinatra syndrome. The beauty of this belief is that the only people who suffer by being confronted with a mass of conflicting and mostly suboptimal advices are the amateur woodturners who finance woodturning teachers, suppliers and woodturning’s media.

So what is my evidence that the belief that different techniques suit different turners is wrong?

1. No promoter of the belief has been able to or even attempted to explain which innate differences between turners which would cause different techniques to be optimum for different turners. If these innate differences are unknown, how is a turner to correctly choose or be advised which of the alternative and conflicting techniques to adopt?

Terry Martin was correct in his letter in the June 2025 AW to point out that different turners have different natural turning abilities. But my experience is that almost all who wish to become competent will if taught what I believe are the optimum techniques achieve competence in them. Obviously there are a few who are seriously handicapped, and for whom special techniques are optimum. There are also many turners who aren’t prepared to commit to learning to turn as well they reasonably can, and for whom “softer” techniques are therefore optimum. These techniques are however less efficient, usually involve more sanding, and restrict the vocabulary of forms which can be turned.

2. If two turners take a tool with an identical edge and present it to and traverse it along a similar workpiece, the results will be identical. Innate personal factors make no difference. Therefore turners who desire to turn efficiently and to possess the largest turning vocabulary (and why wouldn’t they?), should adopt the optimum techniques.

Why is the belief that different techniques best suit different turners so popular?

1. The woodturning media is reluctant to publish objective criticism and comparisons of techniques, particularly of techniques promoted by established contributors.

2. The norm is that today’s turning teachers are largely self-taught or taught by teachers who were largely self-taught. With the absence of some central authority (not that I’m suggesting there be one), there’s little pressure to cooperate to achieve a consensus on which techniques are optimum and how they could be improved. Instead teachers commonly take the approach “I turn using these techniques because they work for me. Therefore you should use them too.” However it’s unlikely that such techniques have been rigorously compared with the alternatives.

3. The support given to the belief that different techniques suit different turners by establed turners. For example, on page 65 of issue 395 of Woodturning magazine Richard Findley wrote “professional production turners, all of whom use a skew extensively, all opt for a different version.” I suggest that the adoption of these different skews was mainly because these turners were apprenticed to different master turners, not because these British production turners have different innate qualities.

4. With the decline in trade woodturning, teaching is now focussed on short, project-based courses for hobbyists. The content of these courses is therefore unlikely to be stringently vetted. And although I guesstimate that at least 80% of the turning produced annually are spindle turnings (most turned on automatic lathes), the focus of teaching seems to be on turning bowls and other vessels for which the techniques are typically easier while the products are typically less useful.

5. Many turners have already achieved competence in suboptimal techniques. Whether they are prepared to put in the effort to upgrade their techniques to the optimum is their choice. It is a choice which would be unnecessary if turning teachers all taught the optimum techniques, and if the woodturning media promoted them.

6. It is impossible to quantify the differences in efficiency (I can think of no other single relevant criterion) between alternative techniques for performing the same operation. But if it were, the difference would have to be, say, at least 20% before differences become realisable through trials. However as proved in SWT, objective analysis can often differentiate between competing techniques which are much closer together. And if for a particlular operation the difference in efficiency between the optimum technique and the next-best were only about 5%, shouldn’t turners be able to grab that benefit?

The belief that there is a suite of optimum techniques is not narrow. For example for bowl turning the optimum techniques will vary according to the turner’s objectives. The optimum technique for sanded bowls required to be produced as rapidly as possible is different to that for bowls which won’t be sanded. And although bowls are best turned outboard, the optimum technique for those who have to turn bowls inboard is different.

I’ll conclude by repeating a student’s quote from Bruce Boulter’s book Woodturning in Pictures: “you know, it is much more simple to do it the right way.”

Mike Darlow, Aug 2025.
Hi Mike,

Interesting points for sure but let me give my take on this topic.

Having turned for almost six years, and not self taught (I have had mentors at the OVWG and have learned from over a dozen professional turners) I will say technique is important. But optimal may be a stretch. Yes, there are techniques that are a given, say not using a roughing gouge on a bowl blank, or not using a 60 degree bottom feeder bevel for roughing out a bowl. But most turners are taught these basics and generally know how to use a tool. They may not know the best way but as long as safety is being practiced it shouldn't be an issue.
I have found that some turners mostly professional ones, have their work seen and know by a certain style or shape. For example the late John Jordan was know for his whisper light hollow forms with texture, one could look at that and say "Hey, that's John Jordan's piece". I would not suspect however that they would say, "Hey what bevel angle did you use" or "Did you use the optimal technique"? They know the work off of the turned wooden piece alone. I have found this with most professionals when taking classes, they don't really care what angle or tool or style you turn with as long as you are completing their signature piece in the class safely.
There may be a few outliers, say Stuart Batty who says his 40/40 grind is the best way to rough out a bowl, but even he does not say it is the only way.
I think you may need to visit a few clubs and talk to the hidden gems who turn without recognition, I bet most will tell you above all to just have fun and enjoy turning!

Gabriel
 
I'm in good company in recommending 30-degree sharpening angles for roughing gouges, Ernie Conover and Dale Nish do also. The belief that the larger the sharpening angle the better it holds an edge is common sense and is correct, but only if the edge blunts by crumbling. If the edge doesn't crumble in use, it blunts by abrasion. And if an edge blunts by abrasion, more steel has to be abraded away to blunt an edge with a 30 degree sharpening angle than to blunt one with a 45 degree sharpening angle. So Bill Blasic you say, "Where I stand is that your 30° angle is wrong, it is weak and it will not stand up to the test of time!" Therefore you haven't tried a 30-degrees honed edge. I dare you and all the other doubters to do and report their results.

Their results will be: the edge didn't crumble, was no more difficult to produce, and cut more easily. The question then should be: why do other teachers and authors recommend 45 degrees? and why also do some tool manufacturers?

Robo Hippy states: "If you play around enough, and are curious like I am, eventually you will settle on what is right for you." The evidence is that most won't. Instead they'll settle on what they think is right for them just like some of the responders in this debate. There will, however, be some turners who'll be wise enough to want to quickly learn techniques which they won't change because those turners understand that like 30-degree-honed roughing gouges, they're optimum. Currently those turners are confronted by a vast array of conflicting, and in the main, suboptimal advices. That's not a situation which I support.

Mike Darlow
 
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