"seeing" the curve

[odie]

It is my opinion that many people, whether artistically inclined or not, are aesthetically inspired by a perfect curve as contained within turned bowls. In other words, perfect curves, whether ogee, or simple curves resonate within the senses of quite a few people.....and, this observation is mainly at a subconscious level. Of course this innate ability culminates in an "approval".....or not necessarily a disapproval, but not being able to capture attention, therefore passing it by.

We, as bowl turners, don't have a lot of free exercise of creativity.....that is, if the goal is to produce a lathe turned bowl that stands alone without embellishments.....a bowl that is completely crafted the old fashioned way of exclusively turning it on our lathe. We must concentrate on perfecting small elements, and the creativity comes with combining those small elements into an overall pleasing shape.

We must fine tune our senses of "seeing" the perfect curve, and that simple act isn't as simple, or achievable, as some think. Most of us have seen bowls with imperfect curves. We might not say so, because the turner is unaware of how the curve he has achieved isn't seen the same way by others, as he himself sees it. IOW, thinks he's closer to perfection, when it's obviously not, by others. It's important to note that I'm not necessarily speaking of other turners exclusively.....but, the all important casual observer. Those of us who aspire to sell our bowls, need to comprehend the implications of this one little aspect, or we'll be forever not appreciated.....and, will probably never figure out why that is. The more complex the overall shape, the more importance each and every small curve within it must conform, and contribute to the total shape.

Note that aggressive sanding alters the perfect curve.

-----odie-----

 

[odie]

To be sure......some of us lathe turners will "see the curve" instinctually better than others, but the good news is this is something that can be improved upon with awareness and experience. I know this is true because I went to great lengths to "mechanically" improve my abilities in "seeing the curve", at one time. This detachable jig is no longer necessary, because my sense of awareness has improved over time.....it still hangs on the wall behind the grinder, though. Eventually, I'll probably disassemble it, when I need the parts! (Note that the example in the photo shows a profile that I feel could be improved upon today, but I probably was satisfied with it at the time the photos were made....around 2008)

-----odie-----

 

[Lou Jacobs]

Agree completely. Sometimes, as others have said elsewhere, if your eye doesn’t see what makes a curve less than perfect, your fingers will likely find the “unfair” spot. In boatbuilding there’s an elaborate process in expanding boat plans or tables of offsets to full sized loftings and patterns. The final step is “fairing” which involves tweaking until all the curves are fair and flow smoothly into each other without any dips or bulges. Come to think of it, in a way, boats are really just large bowls or hollow forms.

 

[Clifton C]

I like these types of discussions. I know what angle I like on my tools, I know what, why and how to change if they are misbehaving. Speed, sometimes tweaked without even realizing. Tool rest height, changed a 16th for a better cut. Learned long ago you can't sand into submission. But curves? A gentle curve. Fast curve, slow curve. Recurve. An almost no curve... It's the language of the turner. Looking forward to others perspectives...

 

[John Dillon]

All good points made above and it's tough for most new turners to (initially) understand the inside/outside curves. My best advice for most turners is to get a copy of Richard Raffan's book, The Art of Turned Bowls. He does an outstanding job of explaining design principles and includes bowl profile examples. Nothing like learning from a Master Craftsman and most of his examples are without embellishment (other than some beading).

I also found attending local woodturning club meetings and participating in the Gallery review to be helpful, as were some hands-on classes with experienced turners.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I for one don't look for or care about a perfect curve. After 20 years of watching customers and bowls what they care about is how smooth the surface is. The persons fingers always touch the inside of the bowls and move up and down about a half inch. I do try to make the inside as closely matched to the outside. As long as it flows from top to bottom without humps or bumps and finished well is what I look for. I have never had anyone say "this bowl doesn't have a perfect curve". That's my 2 cents.

 

[odie]

I for one don't look for or care about a perfect curve. After 20 years of watching customers and bowls what they care about is how smooth the surface is. The persons fingers always touch the inside of the bowls and move up and down about a half inch. I do try to make the inside as closely matched to the outside. As long as it flows from top to bottom without humps or bumps and finished well is what I look for. I have never had anyone say "this bowl doesn't have a perfect curve". That's my 2 cents.

We all have our own perspectives and priorities, Bill......and, yours is as good as anyone else's, I suppose.

One point I'd like to make, is very few people will comment on "the perfect curve", because as was said in my initial post, this is an observation that is most commonly made at an unconscious level for the casual observer. Those who see it, don't really know what it is they are seeing, but they react to it, because it tweaks a personal aesthetic appreciation, or reaction.

Then again.....there are those who most definitely do react to the perfect curve with an acute conscious awareness. I believe I am one of those people.....but, this is something that has been cultivated within my conscious mind over a period of decades of time. I wasn't always this aware of these things, but acknowledge that maybe a few people may have been born with the talent to naturally see the differences with a conscious awareness.

-----odie-----

 

[Dave Fritz]

Odie, I agree with you 100%. When I taught protective behaviors to children we told them to listen to their "oh oh feeling". We all have an innate sense of our world. Of course it varies for person to person as does everything else. I believe that sense can be improved on by being aware of it and even more by examining it and developing it. As a maker I'm lucky as I don't worry about sales, I worry about my awareness of form and my ability to make it work. While in a dixieland band the clarinet player turned to me after his solo and said: "I don't understand, I blow in this thing like Benny Goodman and it comes out like (his name)". To date, every bowl has started out as a Richard Raffan but it comes out as me.

 

[Brian Gustin]

One point I'd like to make, is very few people will comment on "the perfect curve", because as was said in my initial post, this is an observation that is most commonly made at an unconscious level for the casual observer. Those who see it, don't really know what it is they are seeing, but they react to it, because it tweaks a personal aesthetic appreciation, or reaction.

I agree to a point, as far as the unconscious level of knowing what "looks perfect", but I had to disagree that there is any ONE perfect curve (within the same profile shape) It may vary with the individual. Your perfect curve, might not be perfect to someone else.... - Like Bill I have noticed similar reactions - a lot of my "ordinary" bowl sales appear to be somewhat related to smoothness and finish (and I've had higher priced offers "on the spot" for more recent bowls that I took time to finish to nearly mirror polished BEFORE applying finish) but one person's definition of what is the "perfect" curve (even if unconsciously) is not gonna be the same as every other person's .. and then I've had people look at some of my bowls (that I considered ordinary and somewhat ugly, imperfectly shaped) and pronounced it "absolutely beautiful" and yet others which I strived to get a "perfect" curve (as defined by multiple high-priced artistic profiles printed and cut into a cardboard template) and it constantly got passed over with little to no interest (and it had a nice finish and grain pattern, too), Rarely if ever being "picked up and fondled" like just about every other bowl I'd done "by eye" - Eventually I just gave it to a friend of a friend who "always wanted a wooden bowl"

 

[hockenbery]

To me hollow forms are all about the form. Curves make the form.

One memorable compliment I got on my work was from a lady 30 feet shouting “ I want that one” and pointing to a hollow form in our booth. No idea of cost or even if it was hollow.

Certainly it was All about the form for that soon to be customer.

 

[Dave Landers]

I think there are a series or set of good (or better, or maybe perfect) curves. Different curves for different things (a good curve for a bowl is not the same as a good curve for a hollow form - but they are related and/or have similar characteristics). And I sort of agree that the definition is mostly in a "feeling" (not touching, but what Odie calls subconscious). Since it is a feeling, not everyone (including your customers) is going to be in tune with it, so sometimes it might not matter (like when you are trying to make things to sell).

I think it also takes training ourselves to know it (and more training to create what we know from a blank). Feel (touch) works well for getting the curve "fair" and flowing (no bumps, etc). I will look away when feeling my pieces, so my feel is not distracted by what I see - sometimes that helps. For training my sight, it's just taken time and patience. Taking pieces to the club's Instant Gallery for critique was a huge help (getting other people's input - both positive and negative). I'll also place a bowl on a prominent spot in the house, so I walk by it for days or weeks. That glancing, accidental view can often jar something loose in my subconscious and help me know what's wrong (or right) with it.

 

[John Hicks]

I guess my lumpy bowls aren't selling for a good reason?

 

[Randy Anderson]

I think there is a curve/flow that makes a big subconscious difference that most, including me, can't fully articulate but I don't think there is "one" answer for what works. There are a lot of variables that impact what looks right on any given piece. I wish I could document it in some way beyond gut feel, just looks right/wrong, etc but I don't know how. I get close, step back, maybe take it (along with the chuck) off the lathe and stand it up, look at it and my gut will say nope, still not right here or there, put it back and at some point my gut says yep, that's it. I've had pieces look ok on the lathe, stand them up with the chuck attached on top of the headstock and nope, not even close. Perspective matters. That said, like Bill says, I've watched hundreds of buyers, mostly women, evaluate a bowl and they always feel the inside lip about an inch or two down to make sure it feels smooth as their primary obvious evaluation. They do it every time. I also believe their initial interest was an unconscious attraction to the shape or form that they probably can't describe.

 

[robo hippy]

Funny thing about curves, I have made pieces that I thought were butt ugly, and some one would come into the booth and gush over it. I have had other pieces that I thought had the perfect curve and feel to it and they would sit for a long time before selling. You just never know, which means experiment a lot....

robo hippy

 

[Sarah S Elkind]

What a great discussion. I have spent a lot of time drawing to try to train my eye and hands to better shapes. Great way to pass the time in meetings, by the way.

How much of the quest for the perfect curve is actually the pursuit of pleasing proportions?

 

[Marvin Jones]

To me, it's the combination of curves, how they connect in either purpose or pose that makes perfection. I really like something turned that does not fit the definition of design or standards but because of the combination of looks and purpose, it is stunning. That, to me, is art...

 

[Dave Landers]

There are a lot of variables that impact what looks right on any given piece. I wish I could document it in some way beyond gut feel, just looks right/wrong, etc

Yeah, people have been trying to document that (i.e. math) for a long time. Things like the rule of thirds, etc. But it's all just guidelines or approximations.

The thing about a pleasing form is.... well... um... it has a form that is pleasing.

 

[Randy Anderson]

My common struggle is the built in tendency to conserve material and sneak up on the right shape vs going for it early on, getting all of the excess out of the way and refining it from there. I watch the "pros" on youtube go crazy when they first start roughing out a bowl or shape and it makes me cringe sometimes. The difference is they often know where they're going from the start vs sneaking up on a shape. I turn mostly natural edge bowls and too often I start the shape from the bottom and work toward the top rim rather than turn down the bottom to the right thickness early on. I then end up with a fat, too deep for the size shape that I have to reshape and reshape (sneak up on) to get where I need to be. I've been retraining myself to get over putting a lot of wood on the floor early on to get to the right depth to width ratio and then shape it correctly. Here's one I just finished roughing out this morning (Maple) and I did as I tell myself. Turn away a lot of the bottom mass first, then shape to the wings and finalize the curve. Of course it's been flipped to start on the inside shape already. I rough out and shape the bottom on a spur drive. I like the curve here but, some may not. I suspect some would tell me to take it down further to make the bottom curve match the bark line curve a little better. I like the look with more of the side grain wood showing. 13" dia.

 

[Dave Landers]

@Randy Anderson - some good advice I got a number of years ago, for the outside of a bowl: Before you get too far working on the shape, find the foot and the rim (location, diameter), then connect them. Knowing the starting and ending points does help with the curve in between.

 

[Lars Hansen]

One more vote for the Raffan book that John Dillon recommends (#5)
When I really can't decide if the shape of a bowl needs an adjustment, the profiles in the book often give me a clou.

 

[hockenbery]

@Randy Anderson - some good advice I got a number of years ago, for the outside of a bowl: Before you get too far working on the shape, find the foot and the rim (location, diameter), then connect them. Knowing the starting and ending points does help with the curve in between.

Absolutely!
Set the rim - set the base - connect them with a pleasing curve.
Some times I make a notch to mark the foot. Gives the eye an end of the curve.

This is also an opportunity to change the height to get a better curve. Easy to move the bottom closer to the rim.
Can also reduce the diameter.

Using the whole blank is not my goal. Getting the best looking piece I can visualize in the blank - that is the goal.

 

[Tom Gall]

I like the curve here but, some may not. I suspect some would tell me to take it down further to make the bottom curve match the bark line curve a little better. I like the look with more of the side grain wood showing. 13" dia.

Looks good to me, Randy.

 

[odie]

What a great discussion.

Yes, it is......

This discussion gives us a good perspective of where others stand on simple concepts, as applied to bowl turning. There is no question that there exists a world of diverse opinions among lathe turners. The lathe is our "matrix", but individual beliefs about concepts, as applied to experiences, tend to construct a universe of differing conclusions!

It's all a part of the "community", I suppose!

-----odie-----

 

[John Hicks]

Over thinking of curves has ruined many a man. Even bowls. The first thing I noticed when someone picks up a bowl I gave them; is they run their hands over the surface. Super smooth always gets a reaction. Unless they are some kind of "art" fanatic, or even another turner (god forbid you gave another turner a bowl in the first place!), the shape and proportions are the things we turners may notice first....then if there are any lines in the finish.

 

[hockenbery]

god forbid you gave another turner a bowl

This will likely change for you over time.

At least 30 turners own pieces I have done. Doesn’t count demo pieces which would add another 50 or so.
Or 20 odd bowls donated to AAW empty bowls-Turners get them.
Some bought. Some trades, some gifts.

We have a small collection that includes quite a few gifts from other turners.

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

I try to be conscious of when curves are going or how they interact, but you don’t want to over think it. It is art after all, and you will know it when you make it.

 

[Tim Tucker]

If I understand the context of Odie's "perfect curve".....that is not referring to ONE specific curve....but all curves that are pleasing to look at, make us want to pick up the object and run our fingers over it. Thus, perfect curve(s) must have no wave, dip, bump - or any other detractor. They typically will follow a curve found on a set of French Curves - the kind that some of us would have used in a Mechanical Drawing or Drafting class many moons ago. They will all be ...."fair curves". Make sense?

 

[odie]

If I understand the context of Odie's "perfect curve".....that is not referring to ONE specific curve....but all curves that are pleasing to look at, make us want to pick up the object and run our fingers over it. Thus, perfect curve(s) must have no wave, dip, bump - or any other detractor. They typically will follow a curve found on a set of French Curves - the kind that some of us would have used in a Mechanical Drawing or Drafting class many moons ago. They will all be ...."fair curves". Make sense?

Yessir....makes sense to me, and you have the concept right, Tim!

I remember those French curves templates. I also had drafting in high school. Things are done much differently now.....My, how times have changed!

The curves you and I speak of must be "flowing" throughout the curve, and if it's an ogee, one curve must transition to the next with the same fluid motion.

-----odie-----

 

[Tim Tucker]

Thanks for confirming Odie. I thought that is what you meant...

My first mentor - ( Joe Ruminski ) tho he is retired from teaching now is someone I still call and consult with about shapes and finishes. I remember one lesson where in order for him to help me understand "natural" appearing curves, was to hold a 3 ft. piece of small diameter chain straight between both hands and allow it to "drape" by moving his hands closer togather. That smooth, flowing curve that forms has no flat spots or facets - and is continuous. Then he would refer me to work I had done recently, and ask me to compare the curve on the exterior of a bowl - usually by holding it up and focusing on the profile of the exterior. And, of course - I could see where I had "broken form" - by allowing the curve to change in an un-natural way. Usually this was near the bottom, at about the same elevation as the transition area on the inside of the bowl. He explained to me that when we set the rim - and then the foot - it is common for most of us to compress the curve - to force fit it within the distance of the rim-to-foot. The problem is that usually have to change the curve nearer the foot of the bowl to make it work out.
Instead - he taught me - that when we set the foot - to - rim we should allow sufficient waste material below the foot so the foot location could be adjusted if needed. Additionally - the extra step or two of 1/4" average height above the top of the jaws on the chuck also allow for adjustment so the curve can be continuous without breaking form.

There is always the case for augmentation of form - as in - a feature such as a bead or decorative surface work - something as simple and clean as well formed beads or grooves - *BUT* the continuous curve form should continue through the feature and journey on to the rim and foot.

 

[Jon Minerich]

Wow! This is the perfect discussion for me. I have a mentor from our club who I visit most Fridays. Each time I bring in a project, the first thing he says is, “let’s look at the curves”. He then talks about proportion, and eventually we talk about the finish. It is a skill that I admire, but it is taking me a while to learn. Thanks for all the good tips.

 

[Tim Tucker]

John - I think of turning as a never-ending journey. We shall end before we can ever reach the "end" of learning all there is about it. If you enjoy the process of learning - and you like to practice - your skills and proficiency will grow geometrically faster with an in-person mentor that understands that turning the wood is only the beginning of the creation of art. Turning with the "feel" for the curve and desirable shapes + developing skill in finishing...now we are getting somewhere. I have found that there are "stairs to climb"....Or plateaus if you prefer - just like learning any other skill. You will work on one aspect of your kills for a while...maybe even feel a little discouraged that you just are not "getting it"...but you continue to read and watch video and get hands-on training - and...one day BOOM - you "get " it. Not trying to go all meta-physical or philosophical but there seems to be a series of "mind-body" connections that take place with practicing on the lathe. Muscle memory is part of that. But - for me....the hours I spend on the lathe are therapeutic. The lathe has helped me relax and yet focus on one thing - so well that I truly forget what time it is and all trouble in the world just dissolves into oblivion.
Enjoy the journey. It IS the destination....

 

[Kirk Amidon]

I'm still at the point where I can 'see' the curve, but my skills don't allow me to easily turn the curve! That said, this is an area where a little mentoring, and practice have been paying off. @Tim Tucker - I love experiencing those AHA moments, when something just clicks - and not only is the outcome good, but the task was effortless, as the tool does the work. The trick is to make those moments repeatable...

 

[Lou Jacobs]

They typically will follow a curve found on a set of French Curves - the kind that some of us would have used in a Mechanical Drawing or Drafting class many moons ago.

Funny that you mention French curves. I pulled out my old drafting set and used the French curves to design this segmented vase. (Only my second segmented turning, be kind). I’m pretty happy with the shape, but I see a spot where the curve catches my eye and is less than fair just above the widest part, just about where the fourth and fifth ring meet. In this case I knew it was there, but was afraid of cutting through the ring. Live and learn, and continue to seek something closer to perfection.

 

[Tim Tucker]

@Kirk Amidon - you will never be alone in that striving for consistency. Yes, muscle memory is a key contributor…. But there also exists a component that I am not sure what to call, that Odie refers to as “seeing”. It is not the physical, visual aspect of seeing what we have done… rather the seeing what we will and are doing before and as it is happening. Kind of like how you have seen sports casters draw dotted or solid lines as they re-play the play thst has just happened- except when we “see” the curve just before and as it is happening. Hard to explain…..

@Lou Jacobs - I keep my French Curves on a peg near the lathe just to check my eyes every so often. Light and shadow can really play games with us on a piece we think looks good…. Then we take it off the lathe and….

 

[James Seyfried]

I use a tool to help me see if I have a curve just right or at least without any flat spots. It is not what the product was made for but most of us have several on hand. It is a hot glue stick laid across the curve and flat spots will show easily. I learned this from Terry Scott.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Ordered Richard Raffan's book. Came today....

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

It takes a while for beginners to start thinking about curves and design. I remember one student telling me I survived another bowl, I could not care less about design now. They also have a hard time telling the gouge what to do, where to go. To do the curve takes practice. You have to take control of your tools, to be able to do whatever you want without any catches in order to start applying design principles. My woodturning hero Bill Jones said when asked how he got so good: "why you just have to stand in front of the lathe"

 

[Russ Braun]

One needs to graduate to the “good form” level of turning before form matters. This requires enough frustration with mediocre vessels to decide to up one’s game. My Mother loved everything I made her, form be damned!! She was of zero help on form. What really helps is fair critique from compatriots; whether by comments or by example through their own work. This absolutely helps to hone your skills! I’m currently infatuated with segmenting thousands of pieces, not a lot of lathe time working on form…doubly important when you spend months gluing up a vessel to make a great form! it’s a never ending challenge, part of what motivates us!!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

My woodturning hero Bill Jones said when asked how he got so good: "why you just have to stand in front of the lathe"

In one of Ashley Harwood's videos she said "Practice makes permanent." Whatever we repeat turns into habit and muscle memory, so we need a good pattern to emulate in finding the "right" curve as well as everything else.

I had a grade school teacher of whom it was said, "She doesn't have 40 years of experience, she has one year repeated 40 times."

 

[DON FRANK]

It is interesting hearing everyone's views on this subject. When I read Robo's post I thought of "perfect curves" on once turned bowls (rather than on twice turned bowls) and how quickly they are no longer perfect as they warp in drying. For every consumer that enjoys the efforts at perfection, there are many others who enjoy the natural movement of once turned bowls , I think because they look man made, not machine made. This has been a good thread. Thanks Odie.