"seeing" the curve

[hockenbery]

Turned or CNC ?
You each have questions about comparing the other’s work and the amount of sanding required.
I have a suggestion for you both to do a comparison of techniques and finished surfaces

@odie and @Doug Rasmussen
Each of you turn a 3” half sphere with the facegrain at the top. This will have two endgrain faces.

Take a video of the process and some clear photos of the unsanded surface.

You both seem capable of making a 1/2 sphere shape with a small investment of time.
You need to use a similar wood. If you both had a 3x3 soft maple that would be a good wood.

If you need wood I can mail you 3x3 of the same wood.
I have red gum eucalyptus, pecan, or camphor.

This would be a replay of John Henry - steel driving man against machine
A challenge match CNC against Kelly.
The early money is on Kelly.

 

[odie]

Turned or CNC ?
You each have questions about comparing the other’s work and the amount of sanding required.
I have a suggestion for you both to do a comparison of techniques and finished surfaces

@odie and @Doug Rasmussen
Each of you turn a 3” half sphere with the facegrain at the top. This will have two endgrain faces.

Take a video of the process and some clear photos of the unsanded surface.

You both seem capable of making a 1/2 sphere shape with a small investment of time.
You need to use a similar wood. If you both had a 3x3 soft maple that would be a good wood.

If you need wood I can mail you 3x3 of the same wood.
I have red gum eucalyptus, pecan, or camphor.

This would be a replay of John Henry - steel driving man against machine
A challenge match CNC against Kelly.
The early money is on Kelly.

No thanks, Al.....

My work load is at capacity, as it is!

(I suppose that's good news, but sometimes I wonder about that! This is supposed to be retirement, you know! )

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

No thanks, Al.....

My work load is at capacity, as it is!

(I suppose that's good news, but sometimes I wonder about that! This is supposed to be retirement, you know! )

-----odie-----

I can understand that 10 minutes for turning on a slow day
20 minutes to set up the camera and post the results.
That’s a 1/2 hour. Rough one or two bowls in that time…

Might be a lot of fun to beat the machine.

I suspect @Doug Rasmussen ’s time is in the same short supply.

 

[hughie]

For me 'seeing the curve' is not a major issue as opposed to muscle memory. If I don't turn often then my ability in regard to shape and form goes out the window. OK there are techniques for monitoring the shape and form, having a uncluttered background, light or dark ground etc. But without practice its a struggle, conversely if I am at the lathe 4-5 days a week I find its largely automatic producing shape and form I like and want. I have a set of golden mean callipers that I have rarely to use if I am turning regularly. Its all muscle memory and by eye for me.

 

[Marc Banka]

The John Henry comparison is fun, and a thought I had too, but doesn’t quite work. Competing against a gouge wielding robot is the real challenge. Otherwise, you really are comparing apples to oranges.

I used to make pottery, wheel thrown bowls, mainly. Some potters do ‘hand built’ with slabs or coils. More commercially, a process for molding pieces is used. No one thinks they are the same or really comparable.

CNC and 3-d printing are very cool methodologies. Bravo to those who do amazing things with these tools.
But, those things are not what we call hand turned work.

 

[odie]

For me 'seeing the curve' is not a major issue as opposed to muscle memory.

This is a good point about "muscle memory", Hughie. For me, muscle memory is something that is conditioned from repetitive movement, and can be lost for lack thereof.

"Seeing the curve" may be more difficult for me than for some others, because I have to be totally aware when developing a good curve.....every single time!

Recognizing an imperfect curve may be easier than creating a perfect one!

-----odie-----

 

[Neil S]

I've been following this "seeing" the curve thread and finding it most interesting. I would have probably made a contribution to it earlier, but then it got caught up with all of that CNC related discussion. That seems to have quietened down a bit and maybe now is a good time for me to chime in…

BTW, I consulted my CNC machine and 3D printer, but they had nothing to say for themselves and therefore I have nothing to say on their behalf on that aspect of the topic.

For my own part, my approach to curve and form is probably best summed up by the following statement that I put on the individualised ticket that goes with every piece to the gallery...

Beautiful pieces of wood that guide me
in what form they might take in their
new life beyond the living tree​

You can probably see that I have been influenced by George Nakashima and his book, The Soul of a Tree.

For me it's more like a dialogue between myself and the wood than me imposing a form on a piece of wood. I spend a lot of time looking at a log before I start to cut it up and then with each resulting blank before putting it on the bandsaw/lathe. I may have an initial idea where the piece is taking me, but that usually changes as the turning and the dialogue with the piece of wood progresses.

I enjoy the process and hope the wood and the recipients of my pieces do likewise. I attempt to make my pieces more of a celebration of the inner life of the tree than any demonstration of my technical prowess or design skills.

I do search for the form that works best within each piece of wood, however, I have also acquired a large repertoire of forms that work well in themselves that I have acquired from countless hours of drawing from nature and studying what works well in other craft forms. Recognising a form that works well as it emerges from the blank often comes out of that repertoire of forms that I have internalised. I don't set out to impose that form on the piece of wood, but recognise it, like an old friend, when I find it.

Having also been a potter, I have been influenced by potters like Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada, so it is probably not surprising that some of my turned pieces in wood reflect that same aesthetic. But, unlike wood, clay has no life in itself and the potter has to bring a form to life in an otherwise inanimate material. The forms that pots take come from the mind and muscle memory of the potter. The apprenticeship is long and there are no shortcuts to mastering the craft.

Here is a beautifully proportioned fruit bowl by Leach held in the Tate Gallery collection…

‘Fruit Bowl‘, Bernard Leach, 1950 | Tate

‘Fruit Bowl‘, Bernard Leach, 1950

www.tate.org.uk

Several things to note about it. The first is that the foot breaks the 1/3 ratio rule, yet is perfectly proportioned. The second is the 1950 date. This pre-dates the beginning of the craft movement in woodturning and woodturners like Bob Stockdale by about a decade. If you want to develop your skills with ‘seeing the curve’ the work of the 20thC craft potters is one very good reference point.

I know from talking with Richard Raffan that his bowl designs were influenced by the potters down in Devon, near to where he first worked, including those associated with the Leach Pottery there.

On the 1/3 foot to rim ratio and other such maxims, such proportions are a good starting point, but only a starting point. There are ratios and forms beyond the maxims that also work. You have to look for them in nature and in each piece of wood that you work with.

Back when I was a potter I worked out my designs on paper for each of my ware ranges... because a lump of clay on the wheel has little to say for itself!

Just dug up some of those designs... done over 50yrs ago...

Apologies for the quality of this image, but that was what you got with photocopying way back when


​

And, a teapot thrown to that design...

​

That design for a teapot worked quite well (at least according to my lecturers back then at art school), but if you turned it upside down and thought about the shape as a bowl you could say the foot is too wide and doesn't comply with the 1/3 maxim... ;~}

Start with such maxims but don't get hung up on them.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Wow.....
Well - Neil, it is apparent to me that tastes run a large range. I can't be critical nor do I want to be - in fairness because "taste" is individual. As is the definition of art - or beauty. For me, art or beauty in turned objects/pottery is a simple definition of: "Objects that fix the gaze of the observer such that the hands are compelled to touch the object.". Or - when we see something that is so beautiful that we want to touch or hold it. That is more potent to the emotive, desirous aspect of turned objects that are considered "art" in my mind and world view.

To wit - the fruit bowl by Frank Leach - forgive my being blunt and direct - looks like a rimmed cereal bowl that is incomplete. As a design - it speaks of practical, kitchenware. That is not a judgmental statement - it is merely an observation of style. But that style choice is interrupted by a too small foot looks exactly like the tenon was left in place. I see a fairly continuous, curve that is one of utilitarian nature - not explorative or imaginative.

So, for me - the bowl looks like an attempt to raise our appreciation for the practical, simple, everyday items we use - by adding a smaller-than-practical-for everyday use-foot.

I hope what I have said here does not ruffle any feathers. Again, my observations and opinions may not pair well with yours. I just calls 'em like I sees 'em........

 

[William Rogers]

@Tim Tucker Well Tim you may have rattled “Frank Leach’s” feathers, but not Benard Leach’s.

 

[odie]

Among woodturners, there is a definite blessing given for the very simple shape, as long as it's done well. Nothing wrong with that, but a nice simple shape alone doesn't bridge the gap between a utilitarian piece, and a work of art. There must be something more.....something that also tweaks the aesthetic senses, and gives us some additional essence of the former.....tying it all together with an observer's sense of artistic approval.

-----odie-----

 

[Neil S]

... forgive my being blunt and direct - looks like a rimmed cereal bowl that is incomplete. As a design - it speaks of practical, kitchenware. That is not a judgmental statement - it is merely an observation of style. But that style choice is interrupted by a too small foot looks exactly like the tenon was left in place. I see a fairly continuous, curve that is one of utilitarian nature - not explorative or imaginative.

So, for me - the bowl looks like an attempt to raise our appreciation for the practical, simple, everyday items we use - by adding a smaller-than-practical-for everyday use-foot.

I hope what I have said here does not ruffle any feathers. Again, my observations and opinions may not pair well with yours.

Ruffle away Tim... any feathers that I still have are quite tatty anyway... :~}

Agree with them or not, for me everyone's opinions on such a topic are valid on a forum like this provided they are expressed respectfully, which yours were.

Looking at 'smaller-than-practical for everyday use feet', would that relegate many of Bob Stockdale's wonderful pieces (ie IMO) to the category of non-utilitarian... impractical pieces to be looked at but not for everyday use?

60 Wood Turnings by Bob Stockdale ideas | wood turning, turnings, wood

May 1, 2018 - Explore Terry G. Heart's board "Wood Turnings by Bob Stockdale", followed by 194 people on Pinterest. See more ideas about wood turning, turnings, wood.

www.pinterest.com.au

 

[Tim Tucker]

Thanks Neil - I am glad you took my comments in the spirit they were intended. Not as a dis-respect - just observation and opinion.

I happen to be reading "To Turn the Perfect Bowl" - which is a biography of Bob Stocksdale. I think of most of his work as art forms, and not practical for daily use as a bowl. This is - again - another opinion of how we define "daily use"....I am talking about bowls that can be used to put items in - like a salad, - without them tipping over with the slightest provocation such as leaving a fork in the bowl and the mere weight of it against the rim, causing the bowl to tip over.
I was taught that for a bowl to be utilitarian/useable - the foot needs to be 1/3 or approx. of the rim diameter for this reason.
So - that is my understanding...thus far in life... of what constitutes a "useable vs art-form" bowl design. I love them both. For different reasons.

 

[Neil S]

I was taught that for a bowl to be utilitarian/useable - the foot needs to be 1/3 or approx. of the rim diameter for this reason.
So - that is my understanding...thus far in life... of what constitutes a "useable vs art-form" bowl design. I love them both. For different reasons.

I am quite familiar with the shape of those small footed bowls that Bob Stockdale turned as I was making very similar pottery bowls myself to those in the late 1960s. At that stage I was influenced by the mid-century moderns like Lucie Rie...

https://www.invaluable.com/artist/rie-lucie-bqq0edl35w/

You make pieces, put them in exhibitions and galleries, people buy them and you never see them again or know how they get used. However, I do know about one of my piece in that style that I made back in 1968 as it is still in the collection of a very long term friends of ours and (to the point of this post) I do know from visiting them that it has been in continuous use by them with fruit or nuts in it and seems to have survived all that time despite the foot proportions...

Provided the visual proportions are right, my inclination is to go smaller than larger if not staying with the 1/3 maxim.

I rarely turn to satisfy others... I usually turn to satisfy the critic in myself and the pieces I'm satisfied with then go to the gallery for the judgement of others. Of the countless hundreds of pieces that have gone to the gallery over the years I can't remember the last time an appropriately priced piece didn't sell, so I must be getting something right, or both I and the customers have equally got it all wrong...

 

[hughie]

The basic form or shape for me has always been with the idea of not a flat spot or break in the curve. But one continuous curve through the whole form and when this is achieved it is widely accepted and appreciated.
The rule of thirds, the golden mean and all other rules or formulae etc are secondary if the curve aint flawless.

 

[Mike Novak]

This thread has been very helpful for me. As a new turner, I still struggle getting the form I want, but thinking about the curves is giving me better finished pieces.

I visualize the perfect curve as if I was driving it in a car, the steering wheel would be turned smoothly with no sudden changes. So going from a 3” radius to a 4” radius, I’d want to hit every radius in between.

 

[Peter Jacobson]

This is a great discussion, as it hits on one of my core challenges in bowl turning: deliberately making a pleasing form. I know it when I see it, whether it is in my work or others', but setting out to make that pleasing form doesn't always result in success. I would welcome an opportunity to have true critique and constructive criticism to help learn where the improvements could be made in my forms. I want someone to say to me, "that's nice, but it would be better if ... (this were tighter, that was higher, etc)". When I was learning photography, I gained a lot by receiving such comments and criticisms; I don't know if there is an analogous forum for woodturning?

 

[Brian Gustin]

I gained a lot by receiving such comments and criticisms; I don't know if there is an analogous forum for woodturning?

There've been at least 3 or 4 threads previously in recent year or two inquiring about setting up a C&C (comment & critique) forum for those looking for constructive criticism/comments on form/shape/finish/ideas/etc I kinda suspect there might possibly be one coming... but participants that post their work probably should be ready with a thick skin , as sometimes a criticism is much worse (sometimes only seemingly, as different folks might "interpret" what is written in different ways) than one might have expected... I was one of those to ask about a C&C forum - again because I have no mentor, can't possibly afford to travel to a seminar or instructor, (or to nearest club meeting well over an hour's drive away one way) So, my only feedback is on the few things I post, and from local farmer's markets and the like.... and most folks that *might* be even qualified to offer constructive criticism generally don't since they don't know me (or I, Them) so I mostly only hear "Your work is so beautiful"...

 

[odie]

I have no mentor, can't possibly afford to travel to a seminar or instructor, (or to nearest club meeting well over an hour's drive away one way

^^^^^ With some individuals, this can be a blessing that turns out to be an advantage.....because you are then forced to "explore and discover", rather than be told.....and then become part of the herd.

With some other individuals, becoming part of the herd is a heck of a lot better than failing and giving up!

-----odie-----