"seeing" the curve

[Gerald Rutledge]

I for one don't look for or care about a perfect curve. After 20 years of watching customers and bowls what they care about is how smooth the surface is. The persons fingers always touch the inside of the bowls and move up and down about a half inch. I do try to make the inside as closely matched to the outside. As long as it flows from top to bottom without humps or bumps and finished well is what I look for. I have never had anyone say "this bowl doesn't have a perfect curve". That's my 2 cents.

Bill, this is valuable information (duh). As a pre-purchase agonizer from way back and still going strong, I would say that there is more than one factor affecting a customer's purchasing decision and browsing habits. I think the OP makes a good point as well and there is a mountain of largely qualitative evidence to back up what people generally like and what is simply discordant. I would think that Quasimodo Bowl never gets picked up in the first place, so while it could have an interior surface and transition along that critical half-inch you have observed that produce the most sublime tactile experience imaginable (for a bowl), if the thing looks like a ransom note, nobody will even get close enough to experience that joy and Quasimodo never goes home with anybody except maybe the creator who can always use it in the wood stove.

You're in a perfect position to experiment, with both customers and the means and ability to crank out a few Truly Uglies in short order. Do whatever you can to make the outside of the bowl look like the aforementioned freak of nature without being too obvious about it. Maybe make a goblet shaped like the top sections of the old Saturn V rocket:



, with three or four different sized cylinders and hard angles at the transitions between sizes -- and the angles don't even match to boot. It is qualitative, but I think "everyone knows" that this would be a horrible goblet. So smooth it out a bit to make it look like you tried (ha ha, because you did), but still try to break a few of the harmony rules and get it to Uncanny Valley territory. Maybe make just a few pieces of different things like bowl, goblet, platter, etc., scatter them in with the rest of your fine work, and see how much dust or fingerprints these abominations collect. Tilt the scales and put them in front, up to the limit of "stinkin' up the whole neighborhood".

I am not ignoring the fact that you said that people do lift and purchase things that may or may not have been a perfect curve but nice feel. I humbly suggest that there are possibly some additional things going on there: at your level, you're probably making pleasing curves without even thinking about it. Curves don't need to be perfect to be pleasing. Maybe they only need to be not-ugly, and some other visual aspect like a nice color, figure, or something else about the piece is getting those customers' fingers on it to get this second sensory experience. That's where your hook gets set.

I do understand that shelf space is precious and has real dollar value, I know, I know... Your time is money too, but just watch to see if they get picked up, or do they just sit there like the proverbial pimple-faced geek all alone in the corner at the Prom. If you really wanted to be methodical about it, you would need to make them have nice insides (you already know the bad-feeling ones do not sell) and see if that overpowers the Ugly -- provided that any of them even get picked up. If nothing else this is valuable marketing information.

Thanks for sharing the tactile tip in any case; it implicitly speaks to the viability of online sales too, but some items are purchased to go into a case or on a shelf and not with the intention of fondling the piece anyway. It makes perfect sense. A layman still wants to know if they are getting value for the money, so they check the quality by seeing if the bowl is smooth on the inside. Is that a metric for quality in reality? Not necessarily, and certainly not the only one. But it's the only thing they have to go on, and something did drive them to pick it up and check. Not everyone is a layman, either, and in that case, this would be one of a larger number of things a savvy buyer would look for.

 

[Bob Sheppard]

Odie-
Along with seeing the curve, I find that by using my hand and feeling the curve (with the lathe off, of course), I can pick up small imperfections in a curve.
But that may be why you had seeing in quotation marks

 

[odie]

Odie-
Along with seeing the curve, I find that by using my hand and feeling the curve (with the lathe off, of course), I can pick up small imperfections in a curve.
But that may be why you had seeing in quotation marks

Yes, I use the fingers, too......fingers seem to be more revealing with long curves, than short ones......well, it seems that way.

-----odie-----

 

[JeffSmith]

Early on in my turning, after I had gone through the initial learning curve and done a few symposia it dawned on me that having a mentor is a good thing. I was lucky enough to live in the same town as a well known turner respected for the purity of his form - Bill Luce allowed me into his shop, took the time to show me some of his work and work collected from other turners like Raffan. It was an education. I spent a little time on his Oneway while he watched, but he seemed to think learning to see the form and judge the curve was more important than technique at that point. He showed me how he appraised his forms by holding a short straight edge along the form, rolling it from foot to rim to find flat spots in the curve. Watching the curve where the tangent intersects the straight edge will quickly show exactly where a flat spot is even before blind fingers can feel it - at least for me.
I've since moved further north, and several years ago Bill was injured in a horrific motorcycle accident, but his lessons remain. I still pull out a ruler to make sure now and again, but the exercise can teach you how to see those curves a lot easier. I still wish for that purity of form his work displayed, and really doubt I'll ever feel I've found it.

 

[Randy Anderson]

About halfway through Richard Raffan's book. Good grief - a lot to absorb but written in a way that's comprehensive but still gives you a way to start simple and build from there. A great technical objective description of a very subjective topic with sample pictures of good and bad - a big help. Really like the templates section. Was good to see why my opinions about why I liked some of my bowls more than others described in detail. If I can get even a few improvements out of it then it was worth the buy and time to read.

 

[Lennart Delin]

I have thought a lot about shapes I like and come to the conclusion that the shapes I like is where the curvature constantly increases (or decreases). Shapes that are two or more shallow curves joined by steeper curves never appeals to me. My favourites are catenary or parabolic curves or part of an ellipse.

 

[Gerald Rutledge]

Google the golden ratio, sometimes referred to as "phi" if you don't already know what that is. Debate exists, but I'm a die-hard believer.

The debate is that this alleged appeal might be purely coincidental and overly-attributed to things it should not be, or it might be a reaction to something that "looks natural" and therefore appealing, simply because it is so common. The other side of the debate stems from the defined concept of phi is an exact ratio, while attributed occurrences are often not that precise, so those pedantic hair-splitters say the data doesn't back up the theory because it doesn't fit like a glove. As a believer, I assert that it doesn't need to and mental assessment is tolerant of a certain amount of slop. Every single giraffe is not identical and of the exact same proportions ans every other one, but they all fit a broad pattern. Every nautilus shell has imperfections, but they all approximate phi pretty darn well. Also, one exception does not disprove a rule that is supported by thousands of other examples. OUr brains do not favor phi because it is pretty, we favor it becasue we see it everywhere and it is natural/normal on a subliminal level. That's my take, and I certainly see an unexplainable beauty in it, all the way down to simle proportions of a building or room, a piece of paper, and especially curves.

There are some things that people claim adhere to phi, and they are markedly not matches, so that muddies the water too and weakens the argument of the believers when it is claimed that "everything" matches. That's unfortunate. It's informative, no matter what side you take.

 

[hockenbery]

Google the golden ratio, sometimes referred to as "phi" if you don't already know what that is. Debate exists, but I'm a die-hard believer.

It still work after all these years! You also find its approximation the rule of thirds in wide use.

 

[odie]

I worked a compound curve yesterday, and continually felt unsatisfied with what I had.....took 2-3 hours of constantly changing the curve just slightly. Finally, I got what I was looking for, but before I arrived there, it wasn't glaringly apparent where the curve needed to be adjusted. Maybe I was lucky and accidentally stumbled onto the needed adjustments.....or maybe it was the result of continually contemplating curves over the years......don't know about that....but, I did arrive at the solution!

Then, I remembered this thread.

Because some contributors remain the same, and others come and go.......I decided to revive this thread and see if there are any new concepts to contemplate!

I re-read the thread this morning....and, indeed......it is a great discussion!

-----odie-----

 

[Michael Beswick]

I am a newbie and found it fascinating. Like many new turners I find I can recognise when it's "right" but often not how to get "there!" I remember when it dawned on me to look at the top of the work -as opposed to studying the end of the gouge- to see the shape! I find finials particularly difficult and bought "Perfect Forms" by Robert E Dyas. This can be scaled and an outline used in the workshop, but I still find it difficult to translate the shape, to tool action! Similarly I'm a competent photographer: the mechanics of cameras are no bother (I started with real film and manual everything!), but I lack the "eye" for that really great picture! My other interest is an old MGB car (sometimes known as LBC over your side of the pond!). That's simpler-it's just mechanical!

 

[Doug Freeman]

I worked a compound curve yesterday, and continually felt unsatisfied with what I had.....took 2-3 hours of constantly changing the curve just slightly. Finally, I got what I was looking for, but before I arrived there, it wasn't glaringly apparent where the curve needed to be adjusted. Maybe I was lucky and accidentally stumbled onto the needed adjustments.....or maybe it was the result of continually contemplating curves over the years......don't know about that....but, I did arrive at the solution!

Not unusual for me to go through a similar process. Might be 15 min, or it may be days (demount the piece and occasionally stare at it). I attempt to have a plan before tool to wood, but it’s always an inherently flexible plan depending on what I mess up or the wood tells me as I go through the discovery process.

I get better at it with repetition, but then take a few steps backward when I dont turn bowls for a while. I always keep a fibonacci gauge handy to help with layout/proportion. With time the eye gets better at recognizing, but it can still take a while to decide “what is wrong with this shape”.

 

[robo hippy]

I don't think any of us ever reach the point where we are not experimenting with form lines, and refining them. I hope to work on box form lines over the next few years. Mostly I do straight cylinders. I do prefer more simple shapes, but do need to expand. If I don't like the finished piece, I have a wood stove. Some times I keep 'ugly' pieces because some one, eventually will see it and love it.

robo hippy

 

[Curt Fuller]

Curves, forms, etc are definitely a moving target. I've found that unintentional circumstances have been at the root of some of my favorite outcomes. One of the best things I ever learned in turning was to be able to change course by accepting that what I started out to make just wasn't working.

 

[hockenbery]

I am a newbie and found it fascinating. Like many new turners I find I can recognise when it's "right" but often not how to get "there!" I remember when it dawned on me to look at the top of the work -as opposed to studying the end of the gouge- to see the shape! I find finials particularly difficult and bought "Perfect Forms" by Robert E Dyas. This can be scaled and an outline used in the workshop, but I still find it difficult to translate the shape, to tool action! !

One of the best things you can do to improve curves on bowls is to Turn a dozen spheres. You will train yourself to turn a known curve. One right answer.
As if by magic the curves on your bowls and hollow-forms will improve dramatically.

Another track: all shapes are a combination of beads, coves, and flats. Take on a project requiring a couple dozen duplicate spindles.

 

[Lennart Delin]

We all have different opinions and there is no universal success shape. I have been turning for about 60 years and have rather definite opinion of what I like and dislike. Several well known turners produce shapes I am not too fond of. I think the important part is to reflect in detail on what shapes you like and don´t like. That way you can develop our own style.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

The "perfect curve" does seem to refer more to bowls turned from dry wood, sanded, then finished right away; thus, not much change in shape from a dry blank that you take from start to finish. However, the turners who turn wet wood (even mostly dry but still damp wood), can turn the "perfect curve", but it takes a lot to get it back to that once the piece dries, whether dried slowly/carefully or quickly. They are never "perfect" in any sense when they go back on the lathe. Plus, even dry bowls don't always maintain an exact shape between seasons, even after finishing.

For me, the perfect curve doesn't exist. It's more important to get proportions correctly, which isn't always just the curve, but the overall shape, proportion topo to bottom and various widths across the height of the bowl.

Some of the most intersting bowls and hollow forms I've seen have not stayed round or the curve isn't exactly as it was wheen turned. None of my bowls are for sale, so I really don't have any reason to satisfy the tastes of others, only to make myself satisfied and content with what I did or at least to know what I won't do the next time. I realize that isn't everyone's thing and I certainly don't consider myself an expert after only 5 years of turning. However, I get the most satisfaction from a good finished surface. Sometimes that means the surface is smoothe with no tool marks and no tearout. Someimtes, however, there is a piece of wood which just looks better with some rough spots. There is nothing better than a finished piece of wood, the grain popping out, especially with more unusual pieces of wood. For those, whether curve is just right or not isn't always the most important.

 

[odie]

That way you can develop your own style.

Isn't it the goal of most every serious lathe artisan to develop their on style.....one that is recognizable? (It certainly is for me!)

I think it's very true that many turners do what everyone else does, and as a result of that, their turnings look like what a lot of other turners do.

(Thinking on the move, here...) On second thought, maybe it's not the goal to have a "personalized" product of your efforts.....and, some turners merely want to produce something of good quality. Here, personal satisfaction is all there is to it, and the grand effort to excel within the perimeters of your chosen art doesn't exist beyond that. Not to say that's a bad thing, but it does seem to fit the "mindset" of many turners.

I get comments from others who know my turnings are mine, without needing to have it identified. Personally, I get a bit of satisfaction from that, because......well, to be honest......deep down in my psyche, I want to be an "individual", and not just one of the crowd.

This does not mean there is no value in producing something well, refined and of high quality as a singular goal. It's certainly a worthy goal to have......only that there is a separation between merely doing something well, like a "craftsman" would do.....and, doing something that is highly individualistic.....like an "artist" would do. It is possible to merge the two things into one individual's efforts......and, I see that all the time with quite a few other turners.

-----odie-----

 

[Pat Patterson]

One more vote for the Raffan book that John Dillon recommends (#5)
When I really can't decide if the shape of a bowl needs an adjustment, the profiles in the book often give me a clou.

For anyone interested, the Raffin dook is on Amazon in kindle format for $18. Just got it per discussions in this thread

 

[Michael Beswick]

One of the best things you can do to improve curves on bowls is to Turn a dozen spheres. You will train yourself to turn a known curve. One right answer.
As if by magic the curves on your bowls and hollow-forms will improve dramatically.

Another track: all shapes are a combination of beads, coves, and flats. Take on a project requiring a couple dozen duplicate spindles.

I've done a couple (plus a few duds!) and am persevering!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Seeing and making a sweet curve is a challenge for sure. Copying a model with pure lines helps. I did a batch of spheres and have been using profiles from books on ceramics. Large radius curves are perhaps the hardest for me - it's easy to make and hard to recover from a flat section in an otherwise fair curve. I get as close as possible with a gouge and follow with a negative rake scraper.

 

[William Rogers]

Isn't it the goal of most every serious lathe artisan to develop their on style.....one that is recognizable? (It certainly is for me!)

I think it's very true that many turners do what everyone else does, and as a result of that, their turnings look like what a lot of other turners do.

(Thinking on the move, here...) On second thought, maybe it's not the goal to have a "personalized" product of your efforts.....and, some turners merely want to produce something of good quality. Here, personal satisfaction is all there is to it, and the grand effort to excel within the perimeters of your chosen art doesn't exist beyond that. Not to say that's a bad thing, but it does seem to fit the "mindset" of many turners.

I get comments from others who know my turnings are mine, without needing to have it identified. Personally, I get a bit of satisfaction from that, because......well, to be honest......deep down in my psyche, I want to be an "individual", and not just one of the crowd.

To be a serious artisan I don’t think your “style” needs to be recognized. I think skill and creativity are important. For instance any vase I make must have a glass insert for real flowers. However no one really ties that to my vases. I make different styles, but all have glass inserts. It is the skill and creativity that defines the vase as art. I like each one to be unique, not necessarily similar in appearance. However all must be free of tool marks, tearout, have sharp detail and for me I want mine to be unique, one of a kind. Creativity is part of being an artist. But to be called an artist that must be determined by those that see the work.

 

[hockenbery]

Large radius curves are perhaps the hardest for me -

Probably the hardest for everybody. Large is more difficult than small. A 10” bowl is sooo much easier than a 15” bowl.

One trick that helps many is to roll a straight edge along the curve watching the light on either side of where it touches.
Makes it easy to spot a small flat or a too much change in the dynamics of thee curve.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Jaques Vesery does an outstanding demo on curves. It is well worth seeing if you get the opportunity. (He will be at Turn-On Chicago next month).

 

[Lennart Delin]

Example of catenary curve, which is probably my favourite shape for bowls..

 

[Brian Nowak-Thompson]

I find the biggest hurdle to over come in finding the perfect curve is to set aside the fear of it not working out right. I feel that just working to understand how to change a curve as you intended to is about the only way we develop the skill to turn what we imagined into reality. You learn a lot more from mistakes than anything else.

 

[odie]

To be a serious artisan I don’t think your “style” needs to be recognized. I think skill and creativity are important. For instance any vase I make must have a glass insert for real flowers. However no one really ties that to my vases. I make different styles, but all have glass inserts. It is the skill and creativity that defines the vase as art. I like each one to be unique, not necessarily similar in appearance. However all must be free of tool marks, tearout, have sharp detail and for me I want mine to be unique, one of a kind. Creativity is part of being an artist. But to be called an artist that must be determined by those that see the work.

Hello, William....

Yes, I suppose that could be true.....but, only if our definitions of "success" were not quite the same.....

Doing something with a high degree of excellence is not the same as doing something with a high degree of excellence while also having a recognizable style that separates the artist into an entirely different category.

As I mentioned before, I see quite a few examples of both in our woodturning world......and, it's not intended to be anything but a positive descriptor of those who do achieve excellence.....applicable in both cases, while also pointing out the difference.

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

Doing something with a high degree of excellence is not the same as doing something with a high degree of excellence while also having a recognizable style that separates the artist into an entirely different category.

Hi Odie

Not real sure what you mean by that statement.

I don’t see any “advantage” of having a style and being in a different “category”. I like make too many varieties (wood hats, urns, platters, bowls,ect..). I don’t make enough of anyone of these to develop a particular style, other than make each one at the highest quality and insert my creativity into the work.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

If you are trying to satisfy customers, I would guess that many times you just can't do what you want. Rather you need to do what you think they want (which is elusive to be sure). I don't need to satisfy anyone except myself really. I do what I want. Sometimes that means a very smooth finish. Sometimes a rougher finish might be better given the nature of the wood and final effect I might want at the time. I get a lot of satisfaction from getting a very smooth finish, especially where transitions from one curve to the next are, but there are sometimes when that really isn't necessary to get a good effect. Then, I do carving also, moreso lately, because that gives more opportunity for creativity and can enhance the final result. I would be absolutely bored with turning if I felt I needed to produce a piece that matches some sort of style or type associated with me. It would take the fun out of it for me. Everyone gets what they need to out of woodworking, so there are no absolutes for me. As I get better at turning (a relatively new direction for me after being a woodworker for over 45 years), I find that turning just lets me create things that look good to me; sometimes great looking pieces and sometimes not so great. Wood is the beautiful common thing to all of the work. It's just incredible in an of itself.

 

[John Tisdale]

I read Steward's Boatbuilding Manual before I turned - best primer for turning you can find. Lou Jacobs comment above is spot-on.
I'm a "hollow-former" - early on most pieces I use battens (made of strips of 1/2" bandsaw blade with the teeth ground off) - the final fairing is hands / eyes.
Actually I have no choice but to be very exacting on curves - the finish I use reflects any straight lines in a room (door jams, windows, etc) - while your eye might miss a problem on a turning, the reflected door jam screams "Hey - you screwed up" Since the gallery refused to turn down the lights, I had to clean up my act.
Next project is completing my avatar

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Example of catenary curve, which is probably my favourite shape for bowls..
View attachment 45224

@Lennart Delin, Very nice bowl. This shape outline makes me think of a rocket nozzle when turned sideways like this. Curious about what glue you used on this piece,, and do you have any problems with the glue joints be because of the different wood grain directions?

 

[odie]

Hi Odie

Not real sure what you mean by that statement.

I don’t see any “advantage” of having a style and being in a different “category”. I like make too many varieties (wood hats, urns, platters, bowls,ect..). I don’t make enough of anyone of these to develop a particular style, other than make each one at the highest quality and insert my creativity into the work.

William,

We all see things through our own eyes, but can only attempt to understand through other's eyes.

You make some very nice things, and the pride you take in what you do is obvious. Your work reflects that in such a way that others can relate with your commitment to excellence.

I don't need to satisfy anyone except myself really. I do what I want. I find that turning just lets me create things that look good to me

Randy.....this quote from my earlier post, may resonate with you.....and, there's nothing wrong with that!

On second thought, maybe it's not the goal to have a "personalized" product of your efforts.....and, some turners merely want to produce something of good quality. Here, personal satisfaction is all there is to it, and the grand effort to excel within the perimeters of your chosen art doesn't exist beyond that.

After years of attempting to sell my work, I have come to the conclusion that I can't second guess what my customers want when it comes to my style. I just do what I do because I find personal satisfaction in it, but the personal draw for me goes well beyond personal satisfaction as a singular goal.

Some of my bowls never do sell, even though I would have thought otherwise! In another thread, I tried to convey that it's the process that gives me pleasure, and not any individual piece.....they are a product of the process, and when I'm finished with it, it no longer has value in the long-range perspective.

I feel that with a few other artist/turners, the individual piece is a grand effort on another scale that my personal goals don't allow me to participate in. That, too, is a good thing, for both the other artisans, and me.....even though our objectives are quite different. Some of those grand efforts will be museum pieces, if they manage to survive the ravages of time.

I do find that my customers do appreciate what Mother Nature can contribute, and as far as that goes, I am nothing more than a "partner" in the total effort to produce it.

-----odie-----

 

[Lennart Delin]

@Lennart Delin, Very nice bowl. This shape outline makes me think of a rocket nozzle when turned sideways like this. Curious about what glue you used on this piece,, and do you have any problems with the glue joints be because of the different wood grain directions?

The grain direction is the same, you are looking at all end grain. It is made as bowl from a board and the glue is ordinary white glue.

We, as bowl turners, don't have a lot of free exercise of creativity.....that is, if the goal is to produce a lathe turned bowl that stands alone without embellishments.....a bowl that is completely crafted the old fashioned way of exclusively turning it on our lathe. We must concentrate on perfecting small elements, and the creativity comes with combining those small elements into an overall pleasing shape.


Note that aggressive sanding alters the perfect curve.

-----odie-----

We have discussed a lot about curves, but there is as you write the combination of design elements that create a pleasing shape.

- wall thickness, I prefer fairly, but not too, thin. Perhaps about 2% of diameter, or slightly thicker for natural edge with bark left.
- even wall thickness from rim to bottom.
- shape of rim (unless natural) I mostly prefer half round or flat perpendicular to the side wall
- foot, without a foot that makes the bowl "float" I think bowls tend to look like a chunk of dough on a table
- foot size, with the type of bowls I make I mostly have foots 1/4 to 1/5 of diameter and a couple of mm high.
- wood species, grain and grain orientation. I mostly prefer to have the heart wood at the bottom
- with natural edge bowl you can also affect the shape by choosing the bowl blank. A crotch piece yields a more triangular shape, which I like.

Aggressive sanding doesn´t have to be bad. Power sanding starting at 120 grit is excellent for producing nice curves without bumps or flats.

 

[JeffSmith]

I had one of my first mentors show me how to assess a fair curve (or at least locate flat spots) - use a ruler or small straight edge and hold it along the curve rocking it from foot to rim. A curve and a straight line can only intersect (or touch) at one point. if there's an area where the edge touches a section of the curve, its probably flat. Closing your eyes and allowing your fingers to run along the curve can often confirm it. That was taught to be by a legally blind turner...

 

[Curt Fuller]

Another way to check the curve on a bowl inside or outside is to use a long glue stick from a hot glue gun. Hold it against the curve and look for any gaps under the stick.

 

[Bill Blasic]

In my 15+ tears of selling bowls I have never had a person (buyer or looker) ever mention the curve of a bowl. But after watching folks looking at bowls at least 90% always rub their fingers up and down on the inside of the bowl before going forward say to look at the price. So for me finish is the key.

 

[odie]

A lot of opinions here, and all good!

Whatever works!

-----odie-----

 

[Mark Wardle]

I have a video about just one curve that I think is particularly important. I just posted the link in another thread but if you'll forgive me, I'll post it again here because I think it's relevant

View: https://youtu.be/OywWXTvwbbM

 

[Brian Gustin]

In my 15+ tears of selling bowls I have never had a person (buyer or looker) ever mention the curve of a bowl. But after watching folks looking at bowls at least 90% always rub their fingers up and down on the inside of the bowl before going forward say to look at the price. So for me finish is the key.

I agree, but try observing these folks on the approach and try and notice if they are looking at the bowls to begin with (Try deliberately putting in a poorly formed but nicely finished bowl among your better stock?) perhaps if they don't notice or appreciate the form first, they wouldn't have bothered to "give it a rub" and take a closer look... I have a variety of which some are not such a pleasing shape (to me at least) and I set those at the back - if they aren't obvious from standing back from the table, then it is much harder to see the form of it until you pick it up to look at it... because I had noticed when I had them set up "in front" in full view from people coming up to the table, almost invariably they were ignored.....

 

[Lennart Delin]

I have a video about just one curve that I think is particularly important. I just posted the link in another thread but if you'll forgive me, I'll post it again here because I think it's relevant

Agrees completely with my opinion, though I calculates the curves in Excel.

 

[robo hippy]

One reason I never tried to sell on line came from years of doing craft shows. People need to pick the bowls up and 'feel' them.

robo hippy