"seeing" the curve

[Doug Rasmussen]

Agrees completely with my opinion, though I calculates the curves in Excel.

I also have used a spreadsheet to calculate shapes. But, I cut my "turnings" on the CNC and if the shape is not an arc it gets approximated by a series of very short line segments. How do you turn your pieces?

I have the same question for Mark Wardle

 

[Lennart Delin]

I also have used a spreadsheet to calculate shapes. But, I cut my "turnings" on the CNC and if the shape is not an arc it gets approximated by a series of very short line segments. How do you turn your pieces?

I turn by hand and visual appearance, the part that I consider important is "shapes I like are where the curvature constantly increases (or decreases). My calculations are mostly used for setting angles when I make bowls from a board.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I think of wood turning as the visualization of what the mind's eye sees - translated to what the hands so. The mind sees a continuous curve - the hands attempt to produce that. The more experience the turner has - the better he/she gets at producing that continuous curve.

So - to me, there seems to be wood turning, and wood machining. If you produce a stepped-curve vis CNC - do you then fix that stepped curve via CNC - or do you pick up a gouge....?

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

So - to me, there seems to be wood turning, and wood machining. If you produce a stepped-curve vis CNC - do you then fix that stepped curve via CNC - or do you pick up a gouge....?

If you accept the concept that a pleasing object with curves can be designed on the computer then it can be cut (machined) on a CNC machine using a stair step cutter path. Mark suggested parabolic curves as attractive and I agree. There is no single command on common CNC's to move the tool in a parabolic path, but the path can be done stair step fashion. Make the stair steps fine enough and the human eye and hand contact can't detect the steps.

There a few ways to generate stair step cutter paths, spreadsheet, adjust accuracy value in CAM or use the CNC control's macro language. Lower cost CNC's like those sold at Woodcraft and Rockler have an inherent limitation in stair step accuracy because of the stepper motors they use, servo systems aren't so limited.

Most production of high end stringed musical instruments are now CNC'ed. One I know changed their advertising from "handcrafted" to "handcrafted quality".

Relating to curves and shape..... something I picked from a well known wood artist. His contention is design should not be dictated by grain or character of the wood. The object's shape should be primary and any embellishment from grain, etc is just a bonus.

 

[Tim Tucker]

<....blink...blink....> uh...O.K. Doug...

Let me try this a different way: Sure, I "accept" that a computer can be used to design. And - that a CNC can be programmed to make the cut. So, I also believe that defines wood machining.

 

[odie]

A pleasing curve can be developed by using graphs, or computer programming. It can be reproduced by entering those calculations into a CNC program, and reproduced without much human element.

What these things can't replicate is a mental concept.....one which all, or most of us use to fabricate a curve on the go. The curve is "mentally engineered", and not pre-programmed into an unyielding final result.

This sort of thing is what a true artist will do. He may observe a landscape, and paint the scene with photographic precision......or, he may change things to suit what he considers to be more aesthetically pleasing. There is merit to both, but I personally consider the latter to be the more desirable attribute.....one which ultimately leads to unrestricted creativity when brush meets the canvas......or lathe tool cuts the wood!

-----odie-----

 

[Tim Tucker]

Eloquent explanation Odie!

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

What these things can't replicate is a mental concept.....one which all, or most of us use to fabricate a curve on the go. The curve is "mentally engineered", and not pre-programmed into an unyielding final result.

Okay, let me describe how to CNC "turn" a parabolic shaped bowl on the go. The shape of the bowl follows the basic parabola equation of y=a(x)^2. The picture shows the infinite shape variations possible.

Load the parabolic bowl program into the CNC control. Press the start button. The machine prompts the user to enter the "a" value determining the bowl diameter. Then a prompt for a value for the blue line, the bowl height from the vertex to top rim. Then prompts for a value of the red line, the diameter of the bowl's flat bottom (for a bowl like those on the right with no flat zero would be entered).

After the first run of the program it can be determined visually if its shape matches the "mental concept". At this point it isn't an "unyielding final result", it's a shape to modify on the go. Restart the program to adjust the values as prompted essentially adjusting the bowl to the mental concept.

I not going to argue whether this the right or wrong way. It's nothing more than a tool for bowl turning. My business for thirty some years was involved in prosthetic devices, this program can be used by handicapped users. The program is not free and it requires a particular brand of CNC controller.

 

[John Dillon]

Conversation reminds me of the time we visited the Louisville Slugger Baseball Bat factory. We're on the tour and a guy comes out and shows us the way "we used to do it". By hand with a cutting tool on the lathe. Then we see how they do it nowadays, with CAD programs and CNC machines.

After the tour they have racks of bats and batting cages. I think I use a "Ty Cobb style" bat and hit a few balls. I wondered how the old-timers would have felt about a machine built bat vs. a hand-crafted bat. Would they have known the difference?

I've also seen big-leaguers break their bat on a foul ball and go back to the dugout for a replacement. Almost always they would inspect the replacement and take some practice swings before stepping back up to the plate. Quite often they didn't like "the feel" of the replacement bat and would grab another. Although the bats were practically identical, they had to "feel right" in their hands or they didn't want to use it.

This quote from an on-line story I found regarding the bat factory tour.

I asked him (tour guide) if he felt that the skill was being lost in the bat-making process, especially because of the use of machines like the CNC. He said yes, but added that the CNC makes precision bats that are the same every time.

He related a story about how bats used to be made by hand, and that one time, the great hitter Ted Williams sent one of his bats back saying that it was too thick.
When they measured it, they found that it was five one-thousandths of an inch too thick.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I don't think there is an arguement about right or wrong way. They are just completely different approaches to producing an end product.
One way relies on a machine in a way that exempts the mental visualization being transferred tot he hands that manually turn the object. Most think of that person - if well accomplished and recognized...as an artist.
The other method relies on computer aided design ( thus...CAD ) to formulate, via mathmatics - a design - replacing the visionary process AND the hands of the woodturner controlling the very manual process above mentioned. This - by all definitions I can find...is "machining". Not "turning".

Both work. Both can produce nice results. And they require different skillsets.
But one is a far more human-tactile interaction with the wood in order to produce the finished "art". The other is a reproducible at will, in mass number if desired - replication process without the same skills required. One process emphasizes the human in the process, the other de-emphasizes the human in the process.

Does it matter? Well, that depends on how you think about an object. DO you prefer "hand craft" - or "machine craft"?

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Does it matter? Well, that depends on how you think about an object. DO you prefer "hand craft" - or "machine craft"?

How I think about an object is independent of how it was made. A smooth round object may have been carved, turned on a lathe, machined on a cnc mill or miraculously created deus ex machina but it still has the same formal physical characteristics and I would defy you to explain the difference without knowing the object's history.

I greatly enjoy the manual process of turning and I appreciate the possibilities of workmanship of risk, but assessing a piece of woodcraft based on methods of making is like judging a book based on whether the author used a stylus and cuneiform tablets or a word processor.

 

[odie]

Okay, let me describe how to CNC "turn" a parabolic shaped bowl on the go. The shape of the bowl follows the basic parabola equation of y=a(x)^2. The picture shows the infinite shape variations possible.

I not going to argue whether this the right or wrong way.

I can't argue right vs wrong either....but, let me ask you this: With regard to bowl turning, can the computer program determine where the flaws, grain patterns, and other attributes of the piece of wood you're working with are.....and adjust for best results accordingly?

The CNC program may have a more perfect geometric outcome, but tends to prioritize at the expense of the artist's input.

We are working with wood, an imperfect material, and the CNC would be better suited to working with a material where Mother Nature isn't a major element which determines the aesthetic potential of the finished piece. (This statement only applies to what I do, and those who depend on embellishments for the main "impact" sometimes tend to hide Mother Nature's input.....and will apply to a lesser degree.)

What we are apparently discussing is the values of modern technology, as applied to an object intended to have an element of artistic appeal, as opposed to the artist's input applied to the same object. Things like baseball bats, round balls, and utilitarian objects benefit more from technology than something like a handmade bowl, where artistic value is the focus, rather than utilitarian considerations. (This is definitely my opinion on this, and I understand not everyone will believe as I do.)

If I look at a completely handmade piece of furniture from 100 years ago, and compare that to the perfect-ness of a the same item that was produced with all the benefits of technology......I can only come to one conclusion: Both may be functional.....both may have pleasing design qualities.....but the completely handmade object has an element of human input that we can call "character". The appeal of the human element is the one thing that the technologically induced piece will never have...

Bottom line: This whole notion of "artistic appeal" is dependent on whose eyes are seeing it!

-----odie-----

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Odie, it's interesting that you take issue with the "perfectness" of a turned object produced by a programmed machine when your work seems to depend on near absolute precision for its effect. I would say that in fact your hand skills are what allow you to produce all those crisp details that make your work stand out whereas it would be very hard to execute them as well with a scraping or rotating tool on a cnc machine even with very small stepover values.

As far as changing shapes on the fly according to emerging characteristics of the workpiece during the turning process, that is definitely easier with conventional turning, but not at all out of the question with cnc machining. It certainly is easier to design turnings in cad with arcs defined by mathematical functions (circles, parabolas, etc.) but not necessary. I would say that the artistic value of a smoothly finished turned wooden object has to do with the choice of material, its orientation and clean execution, none of which are specifically dependent on the means of production. I think that if Doug were to make a "perfect" bowl in your style it would be difficult to distinguish how it was made, and the fact that it was made from a different piece of wood makes it unique. There are definitely features of handwork that can be distinguished from machined surfaces, but I don't think they are to be found in smoothly sanded bowls.

The experience of hand turning is a radically different process from cad/cam design and making, and that is what I appreciate about it, as (I think) you do also. I'm not sure the finished product can be readily distinguished though, and the human element or artistic value, whatever you want to call it, can exist in either case.

For some examples in another genre of artistic work designed and made with computer tech (mostly 3D printing I think) have a look at Michal Eden's stuff Form and Transform

 

[odie]

Odie, it's interesting that you take issue with the "perfectness" of a turned object produced by a programmed machine when your work seems to depend on near absolute precision for its effect.

Kevin......You are confusing perfect geometry, as it relates to concentricity, with a profile view of the bowl. These are two entirely different things, and yes, I spend a lot of effort to maintain the perfect geometry as applied to concentricity. The current discussion is about the profile view of the turning.

I would say that the artistic value of a smoothly finished turned wooden object has to do with the choice of material, its orientation and clean execution, none of which are specifically dependent on the means of production.

In the past, I have discussed "spiritual turning", and how it is a method of producing the perfect cut. This is absolutely an element of "the means of production", and is something that can only be done within the capabilities of a human participant. What makes it stand alone when comparing to a machine, is the machine has no ability to determine how well the cut is progressing, and make adjustments accordingly. Spiritual turning is only one component of the total equation, and there are other elements that need to take place before it stands out as something that is necessary for the whole equation to result in advanced performance.....and therefore, it's value within the equation to be fully understood.

A more perfect cut, necessarily means less sanding is required, and because of that one thing, a machine will never be able to do what a human being can do with his handheld tool making a bowl. (Spindle turning is applicable to a lesser extent.) When less sanding is required, The concentricity of multiple circles is better maintained. When that happens, then multiple details, multiple intersecting corners, and many changing shapes is possible without them looking imperfect to the critically discerning observer, the connoisseur, as well as the psychological effect on the casual observer.

These things, I have stressed repeatedly in these forums.....but, it seems to me that not very many can comprehend their importance. I think for comprehension to take place, the act of experiencing spiritual turning is a prerequisite.

-----odie-----

 

[Brian Gustin]

I can't argue right vs wrong either....but, let me ask you this: With regard to bowl turning, can the computer program determine where the flaws, grain patterns, and other attributes of the piece of wood you're working with are.....and adjust for best results accordingly?



-----odie-----

Makes me wonder - Can a CNC machine accurately turn out a once-turned bowl from GREEN WOOD? Seems to me CNC can take rather a bit of time to do the programmed job (most I have seen can take an hour or more to cut out a pattern that could be *roughed out* with a jigsaw in a few minutes... if the CNC is slow enough, the wood can move while it the machine is in operation, and you end up with a horrible looking piece (one would think)

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

This quote from an on-line story I found regarding the bat factory tour.

I asked him (tour guide) if he felt that the skill was being lost in the bat-making process, especially because of the use of machines like the CNC. He said yes, but added that the CNC makes precision bats that are the same every time.

He related a story about how bats used to be made by hand, and that one time, the great hitter Ted Williams sent one of his bats back saying that it was too thick.
When they measured it, they found that it was five one-thousandths of an inch too thick.

Some of our officers went to Missouri to pick up bat blank cutoffs. Got a lot of info as you did. I found this story interesting which relates remotely to yours. When pros pick bats they make three stacks as the feel the bats. One is reject, next is practice , and finally game bat. Oh by the way the reason for the change to maple is not the emerald ash borer as we would think but the fact that ash splinters dangerously and maple breaks moderately evenly across the grain.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

the machine has no ability to determine how well the cut is progressing, and make adjustments accordingly

Correct, the machine doesn't. But the operator does. If the cut doesn't look good the feedrate could be increased or decreased by turning the feedrate knob. Likewise, you can increase/decrease spindle rpm. I'm talking lathe here. Even stop or pause the program if the tool tip might have chipped.

Keep in mind you can use the ultimate carbide wood cutting tools, small nose radius, razor sharp, high positive inserts. Those are difficult to impossible to use hand held because they're too aggressive and have a tendency self feed. Hunter tools gets around this by using larger nose radius and inclined insert making them not so high positive.

 

[odie]

Correct, the machine doesn't. But the operator does. If the cut doesn't look good the feedrate could be increased or decreased by turning the feedrate knob. Likewise, you can increase/decrease spindle rpm. I'm talking lathe here. Even stop or pause the program if the tool tip might have chipped.

Keep in mind you can use the ultimate carbide wood cutting tools, small nose radius, razor sharp, high positive inserts. Those are difficult to impossible to use hand held because they're too aggressive and have a tendency self feed. Hunter tools gets around this by using larger nose radius and inclined insert making them not so high positive.

OK, we'll leave it at that, Doug.

We will be forever in disagreement about what a human can do that a machine, or the machine operator can't do.

Have a good evening, friend.

-----odie-----

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Odie,

It won't be the end of the world if we don't agree on turning related matters. I like your turnings, even if I don't understand exactly what spiritual turning and seeing the curve mean.

Not sure if you design your turnings before you start. I know in the old days turners would make a stiff paper pattern of their design to follow.

With free handing turnings sometimes it's obvious arcs like in ogee bowls are not tangent as turned. Heavy sanding has a way of making arcs tangent, possibly at the expense of the original design.

Here's a simple way of assuring transition arcs are tangent using an ogee bowl design as an example. Most turners probably know how to do this, but just in case....

First draw the arc for the lower contour with a compass and paper, the red arc. Draw a straight line from the center of this arc through the point where the tangent arc is to start, the blue line. The start of the tangent arc is arbitrary, anywhere that suits your design. We know for sure that the center point of the tangent green arc will lie somewhere on the blue line (that's the important part). The small circles indicate the center points of two arcs. Set your compass to the desired radius of the tangent green arc, draw and you're done. In this case I used the same radius for the two arcs.




Here's another example of a weed pot. Here the radii are in the ratio 1:.375.

 

[odie]

Odie,

It won't be the end of the world if we don't agree on turning related matters.

Not sure if you design your turnings before you start.

Doug.....

No, of course it won't be the end of the world.....I don't see it that way.

I do believe many other turners are incapable of having an understanding of a few things I have expressed. Maybe it's something about the makeup of a personality that prevents that understanding......or, maybe it's the nature of how learning woodturning seems to follow a formula that myself, and maybe a few others have the benefit of having not traveled that prescribed path. I do believe that once a person has "learned" by following a particular prescribed path, it becomes much more difficult to reset the mental processes that took place to get to where he is....back to the starting point.

My "designs" are a process of evaluating my learned turning techniques.....and, applying what works, and eliminating that which doesn't. I often have a pre-conceived notion of what I intend to do, but the truth is that I seldom finish a bowl that resembles what I initially thought I'd shoot for. I don't use formulas, graphs, drawings.....things like that. Quite frankly, I see these things as inhibiting natural creative instincts. I spend a lot of effort in contemplation of curves while the bowl is in progress.....a little bit here, and a little bit there......until I get what I want.

-----odie-----

 

[John Gordon]

My common struggle is the built in tendency to conserve material and sneak up on the right shape vs going for it early on, getting all of the excess out of the way and refining it from there. I watch the "pros" on youtube go crazy when they first start roughing out a bowl or shape and it makes me cringe sometimes. The difference is they often know where they're going from the start vs sneaking up on a shape. I turn mostly natural edge bowls and too often I start the shape from the bottom and work toward the top rim rather than turn down the bottom to the right thickness early on. I then end up with a fat, too deep for the size shape that I have to reshape and reshape (sneak up on) to get where I need to be. I've been retraining myself to get over putting a lot of wood on the floor early on to get to the right depth to width ratio and then shape it correctly. Here's one I just finished roughing out this morning (Maple) and I did as I tell myself. Turn away a lot of the bottom mass first, then shape to the wings and finalize the curve. Of course it's been flipped to start on the inside shape already. I rough out and shape the bottom on a spur drive. I like the curve here but, some may not. I suspect some would tell me to take it down further to make the bottom curve match the bark line curve a little better. I like the look with more of the side grain wood showing. 13" dia.

That curve looks fantastic!

 

[Tim Tucker]

....I sell "HAND CRAFTED" - at the gallery I am in - because it is how they define CRAFT vs MANUFACTURED.....

Based on their insistence on hand-made......I guess "machine-made" does not have the same ring to it.....

 

[odie]

....I sell "HAND CRAFTED" - at the gallery I am in - because it is how they define CRAFT vs MANUFACTURED.....

Based on their insistence on hand-made......I guess "machine-made" does not have the same ring to it.....

Oh, absolutely, Tim...

When it comes to handmade vs machine made.....art collectors and connoisseurs know, and see the differences.....mainly because their senses have been fine tuned through repeated experience with an art form(s). When it comes to the casual observer, some will and some won't understand the differences, or just why they are getting that sensual experience from the art form.....but those who do, do it with a more subconscious connection than a connoisseur applying personal definitions derived from their experiences.

Of topic here, but then there are the pseudo-connoisseurs who apply the term to themselves for self gratification.......these are the "art collectors" who will buy a board with a nail in it, and call it art! (laughing emoji here!)

-----odie-----

 

[Brian Gustin]

....I sell "HAND CRAFTED" - at the gallery I am in - because it is how they define CRAFT vs MANUFACTURED.....

Based on their insistence on hand-made......I guess "machine-made" does not have the same ring to it.....

Hah. by one customer's definition that I personally experienced, all of us that make a bowl on a lathe are "cheating" as in it isn't "handcrafted" because we use a machine! (She expected handcrafted bowls to be actually carved by hand!)

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Hah. by one customer's definition that I personally experienced, all of us that make a bowl on a lathe are "cheating" as in it isn't "handcrafted" because we use a machine! (She expected handcrafted bowls to be actually carved by hand!)

Cambridge-English dictionary:
Hand crafted- made by hand rather than by using a machine

LIFESTYLE:
"When people define handcrafted, they generally understand it to mean that the entire item was made from scratch by hand. That there was no machine involvement in the creation".

 

[Lennart Delin]

....I sell "HAND CRAFTED" - at the gallery I am in - because it is how they define CRAFT vs MANUFACTURED.....

Based on their insistence on hand-made......I guess "machine-made" does not have the same ring to it.....

Manufacture comes from Latin manus facere, make by hand. Webster definition of manufacture: "to make from raw materials by hand or by machinery"

 

[Tim Tucker]

Cambridge-English dictionary:
Hand crafted- made by hand rather than by using a machine

LIFESTYLE:
"When people define handcrafted, they generally understand it to mean that the entire item was made from scratch by hand. That there was no machine involvement in the creation".

So....since we are all having fun splitting hairs - tools are simple machines. Tools operated by hand create a human powered machine. A log is a machine when used as a lever....
Now - we have to dis-qualify the ancient Egyptians - and everyone else that used a lathe to turn. Glass artisans are out - because they have to use furnaces and tooling....Leather crafters - NOPE! They use machines to tan, cut, etc....Heck - we have to disqualify potters - EVEN if they use a foot powered potter's wheel ( which is virtually a vertical lathe ) - and a furnace to fire their clay. AND....if you are using a knife to carve a bowl - YOU TOO!

But, using some common sense and logic - we all know that "hand crafted" is applied to items that we make using hand-skills.....
Hand skills are required to turn wood proficiently, and the turner's brain and imagination are the REAL tools that operate his hands. Not the machine.

Further - if you think there is still wriggle-room on the common sense meaning of hand crafted - as it applies to wood turning - insert the term "turned by an artisan - NOT a programmer"....

 

[Russ Braun]

New take:

You’re a machine Odie, lol!!

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I would prefer bowls, however made, be judged as bowls. I don't really care how they're made. If they have characteristics that warrant them to be classed as art let them. To me the design is by far the most important thing in a piece of work. If the design is done in CAD software or by Odie's method I don't care.

CNC in art can be a controversial topic. It isn't so clear on the consensus opinion on CNC in this forum. I know of members who have no problem with CNC who are reluctant to enter the debate. The AAW itself would appear to endorse CNC work. Bill Ooms work has been featured a few times in the journal. He builds special purpose machines that I don't consider general purpose CNC's, still the tool path is determined by computer control. No hand work involved, hard for anyone to say his work is not art. And he can replicate as many copies as desired.

 

[Lennart Delin]

To me it is not important if it is produced by hand or machine. The important part is if it is mass produced or a unique piece of art.

 

[Tim Tucker]

To me it is not important if it is produced by hand or machine. The important part is if it is mass produced or a unique piece of art.

When I think of "machine produced" - I think of mass production goods.

 

[Tim Tucker]

I would prefer bowls, however made, be judged as bowls. I don't really care how they're made. If they have characteristics that warrant them to be classed as art let them. To me the design is by far the most important thing in a piece of work. If the design is done in CAD software or by Odie's method I don't care.

CNC in art can be a controversial topic. It isn't so clear on the consensus opinion on CNC in this forum. I know of members who have no problem with CNC who are reluctant to enter the debate. The AAW itself would appear to endorse CNC work. Bill Ooms work has been featured a few times in the journal. He builds special purpose machines that I don't consider general purpose CNC's, still the tool path is determined by computer control. No hand work involved, hard for anyone to say his work is not art. And he can replicate as many copies as desired.

I have no problem with CNC - machine produced products. But...if there is no human hand in the process - there is no artist. There is a programmer.
How can we call art - that which has no artist?

So - for me, it is merely a definitional difference. I even think we should have a category for machine made products that is separate from the human hand turned ones. That would allow anyone to see fairly what can - and cannot be "hand made" and what can be made - or not - via programming and CNC. Seems fair to me....thoughts?

 

[Lennart Delin]

If you want to delve further into design I can thoroughly recommend Derek Hayes Woodturning Design from 2011, ISBN 9781600853999. Derek goes through the design process in depth with design elements and principles.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

How can we call art - that which has no artist?

In general it seems the artist's role is getting to be design and not much else.

Building "art" is something that I was involved in for a number of years. It's surprising how many artists sub-contract the "building" of their art. I did work for a number of local artists.

My business shop could easily handle art work and I liked the occasional diversion of the art. It wasn't always easy working from an artist's crude sketch though and being told half way through "that isn't quite what I had in mind".

The art we did was mostly metal, blown glass and with only a couple projects including wood. Wood apparently hasn't reached the value level of the other media so doesn't justify sub-contracting.

 

[Dave Landers]

I don't really want too get too involved in this, but I guess I just can't help it.

if there is no human hand in the process - there is no artist. There is a programmer.

If the programmer has no hands, then I'm going to be even more impressed.

Until I retired last year, I spent 25+ years as a computer programmer aka software engineer. It takes skill and practice to "program". And I can tell you that there is also art and craftsmanship required for "good programming". Artistry is not strictly required (reference just about any government website) but when it's there, I can tell. I've worked with and mentored lots of other programmers, and those that treat their profession like a craft or art are the ones I'd want helping with the challenging projects.

In fact, a few of the best programmers I ever worked with had no technical schooling, but had art or music degrees.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Dave -
I agree there skill involved in programming/data entry. G.I.G.O...right?
But - let me ask you....would you be impressed with watching a programmer push buttons for hours at a time? No, me either....But ALL of us here - I will bet - will sit and watch a well accomplished turner work to accomplish a finished product. Watching a programmer and a router/CNC machine just does not have the same attraction for...well - I would guess 90% of the people interested in woodturning.
It is the human connection and cooperation of brain, hands and imagination that take place while the tool is held in the hands of the turner - that seem to separate the two schools of thought on the "seeing the curve".
I do think each is deserving of their own category...yet I have not seen any demonstrations by AAW based turners....?

 

[Dave Landers]

watching a programmer push buttons for hours at a time

Didn't realize art had to be a spectator sport.

 

[Tim Tucker]

Didn't realize art had to be a spectator sport.

Just as I do not realize computer programming as wood turning......

 

[odie]

It is the human connection and cooperation of brain, hands and imagination that take place while the tool is held in the hands of the turner

For almost twenty two years, I worked as a machine operator in a machine shop that had multiple CNC machines. The operators of those machines were not programmers, so there isn't someone pushing buttons in that capacity. The programs are held on discs that store the information for how a part is machined to a particular specification.

There is no "intelligence" in a CNC machine.....it simply does what the program tells it to do. Because of that, a machine will not be able to do what a human can do.....specifically because of what Tim mentions above. I have highlighted the most important words in his post above that separate machines from humans when it comes to lathe turning, and more specifically, bowl turning.

A CNC machine will definitely be able to turn a perfect shape, but when it comes to cross grain bowls, the quality of the cut will suffer without the "human connection" Tim describes. This is very true with wood, and not necessarily so with other materials that will machine cleanly. Here, "the human connection" has yet to be duplicated with CNC machines, as they are today.

Possibly, sometime in the future, AI, or "artificial intelligence" may compete with humans when it comes to bowl turning on a lathe. CNC can make a perfect baseball bat every time, but the grain direction in bowl turning is something only a human can deal with.....and end up with the perfect cut without the need for aggressive sanding.

-----odie-----

 

[Dave Landers]

.it simply does what the program tells it to do

Many si-fi / distopia also posit that the computer is sentient and decides on its own what to do. Humans are never involved.